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Intergalactic Summit

 
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So, where's our war?

Author
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#21 - 2017-03-21 13:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
the calls for war have fallen silent because to continue them is to write our own funeral song.

Nice theory. Only problem is that past record of common sense in that direction does not really support it.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#22 - 2017-03-21 13:28:14 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Where is our war? The moment has yet to come. Shakor is not stupid and won't drop us into a fire we will only blister in instead charr. Our war has not arrived yet leaving us with ample time to improve our art as warriors.

Oh, wonderful.

This argument never flew two inches when the Ray of Matar was in power and did the exact same thing. Now when Shakor has promised to end that policy and bring a war, it suddenly is the best thing since sliced bread.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#23 - 2017-03-21 13:40:39 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Where is our war? The moment has yet to come. Shakor is not stupid and won't drop us into a fire we will only blister in instead charr. Our war has not arrived yet leaving us with ample time to improve our art as warriors.

Oh, wonderful.

This argument never flew two inches when the Ray of Matar was in power and did the exact same thing. Now when Shakor has promised to end that policy and bring a war, it suddenly is the best thing since sliced bread.


Maybe so, but now is not then. If thoughts and tactics didn't change we would not be where we are today, nevermind just us, as people in general.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-03-21 13:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
The Republic has enough problems dealing with its severe economic issues, I don't think taking on billions more refugees is smart when they don't know how to deal with the ones they already have. And losing millions of their people in the process.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#25 - 2017-03-21 13:53:35 UTC
Everyone always talks about the Republics "severe economic problems", but they've been in a documented period of relative prosperity for some time, now. Since the tribal council reconvened. Surely they're doing a little better...?
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#26 - 2017-03-21 13:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Why, such wonderful, pro-peace, moderate, patient answers!

And how delighted I would have been reading them, ten years ago, when it was I and mine who advocated for that stance, when we were constantly called traitors, collaborators, appeasers for it.

I'm sorry, but it is laughable to claim that when Shakor got into power with his pro-war cabinet, what resulted is that suddenly every warmonger in the galaxy simply saw the light and decided peace was best after all, nevermind about our kin in Darkness.

It is especially laughable considering that our odds are probably better now than they used to be, what with the Empire having gone through their repeated succession problems, and with technological advances.
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#27 - 2017-03-21 14:05:22 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
It is especially laughable considering that our odds are probably better now than they used to be, what with the Empire having gone through their repeated succession problems, and with technological advances.


I don't think I agree with your assessment of your odds.

Especially now that Empress Catiz holds the throne. A lady who is known for her proficiency in industry and economics. I expect a substantial naval modernisation program will be one of Empress Catiz's policies in the coming years.

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#28 - 2017-03-21 14:08:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Louella Dougans wrote:
I don't think I agree with your assessment of your odds.

Especially now that Empress Catiz holds the throne. A lady who is known for her proficiency in industry and economics. I expect a substantial naval modernisation program will be one of Empress Catiz's policies in the coming years.

Yea, like I said, possible we botched it already.

Shakor did not take the chance when he had it. Now the Empire has a competent leader, we have a self-styled backboneless 'Sanmatar' whose only accomplishment during his reign has been to ruin our century-old free government.

Now we are in fact losing ground every day, after decades of slow gains.

Soon it will be too late.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#29 - 2017-03-21 14:09:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
It's been almost ten years since Malaetu Shakor stepped into office as the Republic's prime minister (later 'Sanmatar').

While more patient minds cautioned against it, many clans supported him, because he made them promises of new glory, of a full-out war at last, the final throwing off our shackles. At his inaugural speech, he seemed confirm their hopes: "Sons and daughters of Matar, make no mistake about it. [---] Let it be known from this day forth that we are a race of warriors, not slaves, and that we will fight to the last drop of blood for what we hold dear."

Almost a decade. Not slaves but warriors.

And what do we have to show for it?

Oh, we have fought the Militia wars. We have even won it, for a short while, and some of us have metal to show for it. But where was the push on from that victory? The Empire was in turmoil, we held the field, slaves were returning and turning into warriors, and then what? The next step is causing a controversy with his choice of companion and attire?

I am sure our sisters and brothers still in the darkness rejoiced and complimented his bravery.

Where is our war, Sanmatar Shakor?

Sanmatar Shakor is a terrorist and warmonger. He has attacked a peaceful Empire on the basis of way of life the Imperials have chosen for themselves that this bully couldn't accept.

I am glad his pity attempts have been crushed on the impenetrable wall of Imperial Templars and Crusaders. I am proud that I took part in this myself and helped the Empire to repel hordes on invading tribals.

The Empire is the oldest of civilizations in our cluster, that has passed test of time, gallente seduction and minmatar agression. And let it stand tall and proud for ten thousand more years!

We in the State are honored to have such ally, and we will gladly man ships and walls to fight with Crusaders again shoulder to shoulder to repel Shakor's barbarians at the gate.

For the State and Empire!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#30 - 2017-03-21 14:11:43 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Why, such wonderful, pro-peace, moderate, patient answers!

And how delighted I would have been reading them, ten years ago, when it was I and mine who advocated for that stance, when we were constantly called traitors, collaborators, appeasers for it.

I'm sorry, but it is laughable to claim that when Shakor got into power with his pro-war cabinet, what resulted is that suddenly every warmonger in the galaxy simply saw the light and decided peace was best after all, nevermind about our kin in Darkness.

It is especially laughable considering that our odds are probably better now than they used to be, what with the Empire having gone through their repeated succession problems, and with technological advances.


You were not traitors back then, far from it. You were ahead of the curve and I hope you knew that back then.

Also, don't take my words as peaceful in any way. We have less numbers, and atleast for a long time less materials, I don't know current details on where we stand. In order for us to triumph we NEED to be better than them in all accounts. Any less than better won't do. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants the next war to be the last one we need to fight. That the longest time of peace for any nation that we once held to be a drop in the bucket compared to what comes of this. So, are we at that level yet? I know I'm not. Are you and your own? I'd hope so but knowing your limitations is far from being a weakness, a strength if anything.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2017-03-21 14:11:49 UTC
I see what you're getting at, but if I were Shakor and had to choose between "betray a campaign promise" and "lead a disastrous full scale war with dire political, economic, diplomatic and social consequences that will be a pyrrhic victory at best", I would pick the former. Surely you can see an argument for why he wouldn't start a war just to keep his campaign promise.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2017-03-21 14:14:53 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Everyone always talks about the Republics "severe economic problems", but they've been in a documented period of relative prosperity for some time, now. Since the tribal council reconvened. Surely they're doing a little better...?


They probably are, I don't spend much time in republic space. but thats also probably why the ferver has died down, the populace is finally starting to make some progress and get comfortable, why would they want to go back to being stretched razor thin?
Jev North
Doomheim
#33 - 2017-03-21 14:25:28 UTC
I suppose every one of us that used to be interested in such things had their chance to do a little flag-waving, hymn-singing, servicepeople-murdering and point-scoring, and consequently decided that while LP are nice, it ultimately wasn't their life's calling.

I mean, where were you? What's the point of shouting this question at a gaggle of independent capsuleers, instead of the actual Republic leadership, unless it's a rhetorical device to draw attention to their flaws-..

Oh.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#34 - 2017-03-21 14:55:02 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Everyone always talks about the Republics "severe economic problems", but they've been in a documented period of relative prosperity for some time, now. Since the tribal council reconvened. Surely they're doing a little better...?


I used to think that the Republic was somewhat of a basket case, and my constituents often complained about paying taxes to support the perceived failures of economic policy. Last year however, I was privileged to be part of a delegation from our regional assembly to meet with a number of Republic agencies, and we found the situation very much improved from the rather lurid and prejudiced stories that the yellow press is so fond of promulgating.

The Republic's economy is, in my view vibrant and growing. There are significant areas of deprivation but any nation developing from almost a standing start would face such inequalities. The Federation has been at this sort of thing for centuries, and we still fail on a number of levels to address equitable distribution of wealth.

Further to Captain Rhiannon's opening question, there appears to be somewhat of an assumption built into the desire for war. That is that the Federation would be willing, as an ally, to bankroll the adventure. I fear this is an erroneous leap of faith. Whilst we value the Republic as our ally, and would certainly defend her interests if threatened, I sense absolutely no appetite for supporting an aggressive war against the Empire (outside the agreed parameters of CEWPA). I expect the Senate would immediately pull the plug - financial and military - on such a Quixotic and doomed invasion and require immediate attendance at peace talks.

This would prove rather humiliating for the Sanmatar, revealing just how dependent the Republic is on Federation goodwill. I'm sure he had this explained clearly to him just days after his accession, thus accounting for his change of mood.

We are seeing the Empire move gradually towards enlightenment vis-å-vis slavery and the human rights of their captive populations. Glacial perhaps, but discernible. The Federation welcomes that and will, I feel, try to encourage the new Empress further in that direction. If she feels threatened, all that progress may be lost.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#35 - 2017-03-21 15:01:29 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
You were not traitors back then, far from it. You were ahead of the curve and I hope you knew that back then.

We did.

Quote:
Also, don't take my words as peaceful in any way. We have less numbers, and atleast for a long time less materials, I don't know current details on where we stand. In order for us to triumph we NEED to be better than them in all accounts. Any less than better won't do. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants the next war to be the last one we need to fight. That the longest time of peace for any nation that we once held to be a drop in the bucket compared to what comes of this. So, are we at that level yet? I know I'm not. Are you and your own? I'd hope so but knowing your limitations is far from being a weakness, a strength if anything.

This argument holds water only as long as we are gaining.
Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
#36 - 2017-03-21 15:03:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Persephone Alleile
The view from the top is often different one expects. It's possible that once Sanmatar Shakor entered office and became privy to the Republic's records and intelligence reports he realized the Republic was in no position to support total war. Most of the Republic's resources are geared towards infrastructure projects and improving industry, gear them towards war and it's the people who were relying on those projects who will suffer.

What's more there is a balance of power in the cluster that needs to be considered. Do you think the Federation would agree to be drawn into total war with the Amarr? Do you favour the Republic's chances without them?

In the end is it worth the deaths of countless soldiers and civilians alike to of slaves? Who's lives are worth more? Does the equation end up positive or is it a zero sum game? This is the kind of cold calculus a leader must engage in.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#37 - 2017-03-21 15:30:34 UTC
Nicely done, Ell. I especially like the frightened and confused younglings that don't know you well enough to read this in the right tone of voice, as it were.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#38 - 2017-03-21 15:49:42 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:

This argument holds water only as long as we are gaining.

I fully agree with this, only thing is in the last ten years have we not been improving steadily? As I said before, with time tactics and thoughts change. I hope we don't rest on our laurels if that trend changes for the worse.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#39 - 2017-03-21 16:17:44 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:


Where is our war, Sanmatar Shakor?

soon*

*tm

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#40 - 2017-03-21 16:25:34 UTC
Not all wars are won with brute force and all those friends with sharp smiles are not really "committed to peace" after all, maybe Shakor finally understood those basic things.