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Low-sec Hopes and Changes
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Sivar Ahishatsu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#581 - 2017-03-27 05:03:25 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
So, does everyone have their own idea about how to make low-sec good, or have certain ideas/concepts started to get favor with the mass of low-sec players?


Yup,

Remove low Sec. Expand High Sec to 0.2, and leave only 0.1 with unresponsive Concord just for the ***** and giggles.
Current situation is that Low Sec is innaccessible by many new players. As it is controlled by older Piraty players who kill kill anyone jumping in "their turf", and then go sell some insignias to concord to by pass the security hits they take.

So it serves nothing really to have Low sec right now, it only filters new players out of the game as High sec gets boring after the initial ooohs and aaaahs of the game. I would say 2-3 months in players would start feeling boredom and frustration.

It takes at least 1-2 years of skilling to match the players who control low sec so forget about fighting them off as a new player, many have 6 years + skills and game experience.

Plus the game already has mechanics where players carve their own space in nulsec. Why double up on that? Low sec was not meant to be claimed by players it is empire space, and if yes, then I question that design decision of redundant gameplay experience. Low sec was meant to offer players a self policing, self balancing arena for PvP. It failed, the Pirates won. Now it is juts a death trap for anyone new to EVE.

I think seriously expanding High Sec and reducing (or removing) Low sec will push the pirates in to the few NPC controll 0.0 zones and in to Alliance Nulsec.

At the same time, it will provide for a sturdier base upon which new players and corps can evolve out of high sec and contest Nullsec (or add t the Pirate pop), in either case the action will move back to Nulsec, it will mean something having patrols and escorts and enforcing one's territory and pushing off new would be attackers from the new high sec.

The truth is that, we all evvolve, we change with time and the only direction is forward, the game needs to follow the player base and provide new opportunities and challenges. The "how it was before" is not a destination for the majority of people, otehrwise they would still be here, and it is a step back for thsoe that are still here.

James 315 was wrong, he was living and longing for the past (I empathise and understand him). But life moves forward and people look otwards the future, the game must be able to do the same.
Salvos Rhoska
#582 - 2017-03-27 06:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:
Snip.

Heh, killboard epeening.

Removing cynos/caps from LS will increase PvP content, not reduce it.

JFs are making a mockery of LS, and largely benefit only large/wealthy/older corps.
JFs are a 90day train just to sit in, and 7+bil off the market to buy.
That is well beyond the capacity of newer players.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#583 - 2017-03-27 06:46:00 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Removing cynos/caps from LS will increase PvP content, not reduce it.

Bullshit.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Salvos Rhoska
#584 - 2017-03-27 06:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Removing cynos/caps from LS will increase PvP content, not reduce it.

Bullshit.

When material must gate transit, rather than lol-cyno past it, its undeniable this means more PvP surface in LS.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#585 - 2017-03-27 07:18:14 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Removing cynos/caps from LS will increase PvP content, not reduce it.

Bullshit.

When material is forced to gate transit, rather than lol-cyno past it, its undeniable this means more PvP surface in LS.

No it doesn't. It means less industry and market activity in lowsec. Nothing more.

Lowsec players will stage adjacent to highsec and have alts buy in highsec. Nullsec will just manage their manufacturing in nullsec if big enough, and small groups will die out in certain areas.

That's the effect of your dumb suggestion.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Salvos Rhoska
#586 - 2017-03-27 08:14:35 UTC
Just gates instesd of lol-cynoing.

Simple as that.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#587 - 2017-03-27 08:16:31 UTC
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:
I think it is important to point out that the two people on this thread who are arguing for drastic changes to lowsec do not thrive there.

Lowsec is about PvP isnt it? Zkill is pretty much a good way to get intel on what people are about.

Herzog Wolfhammer

and

Salvos Rhoska

If you compare them to someone like...

Lan Wang

or even me...you can see whats up.

Maybe they are not to blame because no one has ever 'taught' them what lowsec pvp is about...but maybe they are to blame for never getting into a ship with the intention of fighting, loosing it, and LEARNING what lowsec PvP is about...and then from there joining a corp that ALSO knows what lowsec PvP is about - how it is funded, and the supply and logistics involved to maintian the content.

Like i said before, the people that thrive in lowsec do have their complaints - but NONE of them ever complain about cynos and especially jump freighters.


Ill add to this that if people really wanted to kill jf's then they would also do what this guy does.

Tiky Mikk

But citadels sorta removed this gameplay

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#588 - 2017-03-27 08:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Sivar Ahishatsu wrote:
Orakkus wrote:
So, does everyone have their own idea about how to make low-sec good, or have certain ideas/concepts started to get favor with the mass of low-sec players?


Yup,

Remove low Sec. Expand High Sec to 0.2, and leave only 0.1 with unresponsive Concord just for the ***** and giggles.
Current situation is that Low Sec is innaccessible by many new players. As it is controlled by older Piraty players who kill kill anyone jumping in "their turf", and then go sell some insignias to concord to by pass the security hits they take.

So it serves nothing really to have Low sec right now, it only filters new players out of the game as High sec gets boring after the initial ooohs and aaaahs of the game. I would say 2-3 months in players would start feeling boredom and frustration.

It takes at least 1-2 years of skilling to match the players who control low sec so forget about fighting them off as a new player, many have 6 years + skills and game experience.

Plus the game already has mechanics where players carve their own space in nulsec. Why double up on that? Low sec was not meant to be claimed by players it is empire space, and if yes, then I question that design decision of redundant gameplay experience. Low sec was meant to offer players a self policing, self balancing arena for PvP. It failed, the Pirates won. Now it is juts a death trap for anyone new to EVE.

I think seriously expanding High Sec and reducing (or removing) Low sec will push the pirates in to the few NPC controll 0.0 zones and in to Alliance Nulsec.

At the same time, it will provide for a sturdier base upon which new players and corps can evolve out of high sec and contest Nullsec (or add t the Pirate pop), in either case the action will move back to Nulsec, it will mean something having patrols and escorts and enforcing one's territory and pushing off new would be attackers from the new high sec.

The truth is that, we all evvolve, we change with time and the only direction is forward, the game needs to follow the player base and provide new opportunities and challenges. The "how it was before" is not a destination for the majority of people, otehrwise they would still be here, and it is a step back for thsoe that are still here.

James 315 was wrong, he was living and longing for the past (I empathise and understand him). But life moves forward and people look otwards the future, the game must be able to do the same.


1. So it serves nothing really to have Low sec right now, it only filters new players out of the game as High sec gets boring after the initial ooohs and aaaahs of the game. I would say 2-3 months in players would start feeling boredom and frustration.

You say this but please explain how making highsec bigger would make players less bored, that doesnt make sense, they will just get the same bored but in a bigger area.

2. I think seriously expanding High Sec and reducing (or removing) Low sec will push the pirates in to the few NPC controll 0.0 zones and in to Alliance Nulsec.

it might push some of them but then some of them will just quite because the majority of people in lowsec do not like nullsec and you cant force that on people, its like me saying kick everyone out of highsec after 3 months because highsec is for new players not older players. im sure you bears wouldn't like that happening.

3. As it is controlled by older Piraty players who kill kill anyone jumping in "their turf", and then go sell some insignias to concord to by pass the security hits they take.

Wrong again, pirates dont care because we all have alts to do stuff in highsec, we take pride in our -10.0 status.

4. It takes at least 1-2 years of skilling to match the players who control low sec so forget about fighting them off as a new player, many have 6 years + skills and game experience.

really? new players come in and out of lowsec everyday, not everyone is scared, if you are too scrared to jump into lowsec then you probably wont last long in eve regardless

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#589 - 2017-03-27 08:48:15 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Just gates instesd of lol-cynoing.

Simple as that.

Bullshit.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#590 - 2017-03-27 12:46:09 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:
Snip.

Heh, killboard epeening.

Removing cynos/caps from LS will increase PvP content, not reduce it.

JFs are making a mockery of LS, and largely benefit only large/wealthy/older corps.
JFs are a 90day train just to sit in, and 7+bil off the market to buy.
That is well beyond the capacity of newer players.


How about those new players join corp where they will learn how to live in low-sec and get the support of said corp who, if it's worth anything, will already have at least one JF to help handle the entire corp's logistic need.

"Think of the children" is not a good argument.
Salvos Rhoska
#591 - 2017-03-27 12:52:56 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
How about those new players join corp where they will learn how to live in low-sec and get the support of said corp


You dont need JFs for that in Ls.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#592 - 2017-03-27 13:34:22 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
How about those new players join corp where they will learn how to live in low-sec and get the support of said corp


You dont need JFs for that in Ls.


You don't need them anywhere. Needing them is an absolutely garbage argument and I have already told you that.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#593 - 2017-03-27 14:18:12 UTC
The issue with removing Cynos/JF's from lowsec is that the null-sec empires that want to transfer goods will do them using large fleets.

People won't try to move stuff with small or unguarded transport... because it will always be killed. Transport will ONLY happen with large groups.

This might create some large fleet battles in low sec. The problem is it will kill all the small/unaffiliated groups in low sec and null sec because they won't be able to move goods. And the increase in camps will also put a huge damper on FW activity.

You're wiping out much of the small group pvp which in my mind makes low sec different from null-sec... in exchange for a few fleet battles in low-sec (most of which will be between large null sec groups since most low sec pirates are probably not pulling together 100-man fleets)

To me, this is a problem. Large fleet combat belongs mostly in Null. Small-gang/solo combat is how low sec works. Turning low-sec into a more annoying null isn't a good solution.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#594 - 2017-03-27 14:37:12 UTC
Scialt wrote:
The issue with removing Cynos/JF's from lowsec is that the null-sec empires that want to transfer goods will do them using large fleets.

People won't try to move stuff with small or unguarded transport... because it will always be killed. Transport will ONLY happen with large groups.

This might create some large fleet battles in low sec. The problem is it will kill all the small/unaffiliated groups in low sec and null sec because they won't be able to move goods. And the increase in camps will also put a huge damper on FW activity.

You're wiping out much of the small group pvp which in my mind makes low sec different from null-sec... in exchange for a few fleet battles in low-sec (most of which will be between large null sec groups since most low sec pirates are probably not pulling together 100-man fleets)

To me, this is a problem. Large fleet combat belongs mostly in Null. Small-gang/solo combat is how low sec works. Turning low-sec into a more annoying null isn't a good solution.


Nobody really want to run escort fleet even if they have large number. It's cancer and the enemy can still kill your hauling ship faster than you can respond if they find you by alpha striking it.

Add to that the fact that only 2 freighter out of 4 can actually try to fit a tank which a fleet could support.

If we go away from freighter to have ships that can be supported, we still face the alpha BS but over this, we now multiply all the required trips thus creating more cancer fleet where all the majority actually do is align-warp-jump while 5 key people are on scout and web duty to try to slingshot the damn ship into warp faster.

Even if null wanted to live by itself, it currently is impossible. We need some of HS minerals because the ratio in ore anoms isn't right. Then, we also need some moon-goo since no region provide a balanced plate. 3rd, if you ever want to run anything above T2 tank mods, you need to import them because your region can only produce one type, shield or armor unless your territory spans multiple region with different rat types.

All of this generate large volume of stuff that need to move on a daily basis. It's currently done by JFs but if you remove that, you would still need impressive m3/day to sustain anything.

It is not strictly impossible but I have doubt CCP want to restrict stuff as much as they would if JFs links with empire were cut.

We are probably the alliance that currently milk it's territory for resources the most and we still have a rather constant flow of JFs making runs because ***** need to be moved.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#595 - 2017-03-27 15:40:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Scialt wrote:
The issue with removing Cynos/JF's from lowsec is that the null-sec empires that want to transfer goods will do them using large fleets.

People won't try to move stuff with small or unguarded transport... because it will always be killed. Transport will ONLY happen with large groups.

This might create some large fleet battles in low sec. The problem is it will kill all the small/unaffiliated groups in low sec and null sec because they won't be able to move goods. And the increase in camps will also put a huge damper on FW activity.

You're wiping out much of the small group pvp which in my mind makes low sec different from null-sec... in exchange for a few fleet battles in low-sec (most of which will be between large null sec groups since most low sec pirates are probably not pulling together 100-man fleets)

To me, this is a problem. Large fleet combat belongs mostly in Null. Small-gang/solo combat is how low sec works. Turning low-sec into a more annoying null isn't a good solution.


Nobody really want to run escort fleet even if they have large number. It's cancer and the enemy can still kill your hauling ship faster than you can respond if they find you by alpha striking it.

Add to that the fact that only 2 freighter out of 4 can actually try to fit a tank which a fleet could support.

If we go away from freighter to have ships that can be supported, we still face the alpha BS but over this, we now multiply all the required trips thus creating more cancer fleet where all the majority actually do is align-warp-jump while 5 key people are on scout and web duty to try to slingshot the damn ship into warp faster.

Even if null wanted to live by itself, it currently is impossible. We need some of HS minerals because the ratio in ore anoms isn't right. Then, we also need some moon-goo since no region provide a balanced plate. 3rd, if you ever want to run anything above T2 tank mods, you need to import them because your region can only produce one type, shield or armor unless your territory spans multiple region with different rat types.

All of this generate large volume of stuff that need to move on a daily basis. It's currently done by JFs but if you remove that, you would still need impressive m3/day to sustain anything.

It is not strictly impossible but I have doubt CCP want to restrict stuff as much as they would if JFs links with empire were cut.

We are probably the alliance that currently milk it's territory for resources the most and we still have a rather constant flow of JFs making runs because ***** need to be moved.


Oh, I know nobody wants to run them. But the big null-sec alliances will do so... because what's the alternative?

Removing jump freighters would be a huge pain. The point is the ones who would be able to deal with it are the 1000-man corporations who can bully together enough support to clear out a path through low-sec killing everything, send scouts out in all directions to make sure another large fleet isn't coming and send their freighters through. The smaller groups will just leave or be assimilated.
Salvos Rhoska
#596 - 2017-03-27 18:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
This is yet another case where the convenience of wealthy/established corps goes over that of lessers.
And making it even worse, its cross-sector.

Its tragic that even the simple suggestion of removing cynos from LS, is immediately met with doomsday scenarios where NS will flood LS with hundreds of ships. This whereas it is NS which most benefits from the cyno mechanic in LS to avoid PvP, and is most able to field the high SP/cost of JFs in the first place.

They then use the "consider the children" argument, stating they will wipe LS out if cynos are removed, whereas it is infact themselves whom benefit most from cynos in LS.

If its true that NS is such n overwhelming threat to LS, simply for the removal of cynos (from which NS benefits most), then perhaps we need even more drastic solutions.

NS convenience should not be dictating LS mechanics.

If we operate under the notion that NS can wreck LS at will, what is the point of LS as a sector at all?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
#597 - 2017-03-27 18:16:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:
Snip.

Heh, killboard epeening.

Removing cynos/caps from LS will increase PvP content, not reduce it.

JFs are making a mockery of LS, and largely benefit only large/wealthy/older corps.
JFs are a 90day train just to sit in, and 7+bil off the market to buy.
That is well beyond the capacity of newer players.


How about those new players join corp where they will learn how to live in low-sec and get the support of said corp who, if it's worth anything, will already have at least one JF to help handle the entire corp's logistic need.

"Think of the children" is not a good argument.


Exactly!

Also to say that older vet players 'control' lowsec is a falsehood. Thanks to Novice FW plexes only t1 frigates can enter them. So my suggestion for the new player is to get in a cheap t1 frigate with several backups ready to go (as it will get blown up) and get out into some FW space, and investigate the novice plexes.

Eventually you will get a fight, and eventually even win! :) Congrats, your pvp career as a noob has begun.
You may take it from there however you please. :)

Interstellar Booty Hunters - Pirate Small Gang PvP Forever!
Salvos Rhoska
#598 - 2017-03-27 18:20:24 UTC
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:
Eventually you will get a fight, and eventually even win! :)


No.

The counter-argument has been that NS will flood and wreck LS, if they cant cyno their JFs through it.

They are saying that LS cant win that fight.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
#599 - 2017-03-27 18:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximillian Bonaparte
Umm as far as killboard epeening...

I would define KB epeening when someone has a 90% kb efficiency with several thousand kills, but all their fights are 30 plus participants to 100's, and then they show it off. :)

My first year in eve was between RvB and lowsec carebearing exploration, so it is not that great! I am small fry compared to certain solo players even.
However we know how to have fun content and win 'most of the time'. There is PvP out there that is not blobbing, station games, or even gate camping. If you dare to come out to lowsec and find it! :)

Interstellar Booty Hunters - Pirate Small Gang PvP Forever!
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#600 - 2017-03-27 18:22:24 UTC
To be truthful, I did not read through all 30 pages of this thread, but what I did read through was pretty amazing .

I just have a question. ....

Is this just some wishes of the player base or is there some info from CPP that precipitated this topic?
And if so, would someone please post a link?

Thanks