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Low-sec Hopes and Changes

Author
Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
#601 - 2017-03-27 18:30:26 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:
Eventually you will get a fight, and eventually even win! :)


No.

The counter-argument has been that NS will flood and wreck LS, if they cant cyno their JFs through it.

They are saying that LS cant win that fight.


Your being dumb. NS doesnt care about a damn t1 frigate!
Salvos Rhoska
#602 - 2017-03-27 18:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Trebon Luap wrote:
Snip


No post from CCP precipitated it.
No indication of change from them.

As a very narrow and the smallest sector of EVE (only some 800 systems stretched thin all around between HS and NS), what is happening there, why/how has been overlooked.

My problem with that, is JFs are lol-cynoing through it, creating an uninterrupted stream of NS<->HS material transfer.

This leads to exploitation by large entities which use both HS markets (or rather Jita and Forge production), and NS benefits, commensurately and conjointly, cos LS is no substantial barrier between the two.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#603 - 2017-03-27 18:42:56 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
This is yet another case where the convenience of wealthy/established corps goes over that of lessers.
And making it even worse, its cross-sector.

Its tragic that even the simple suggestion of removing cynos from LS, is immediately met with doomsday scenarios where NS will flood LS with hundreds of ships. This whereas it is NS which most benefits from the cyno mechanic in LS to avoid PvP, and is most able to field the high SP/cost of JFs in the first place.

They then use the "consider the children" argument, stating they will wipe LS out if cynos are removed, whereas it is infact themselves whom benefit most from cynos in LS.

If its true that NS is such n overwhelming threat to LS, simply for the removal of cynos (from which NS benefits most), then perhaps we need even more drastic solutions.

NS convenience should not be dictating LS mechanics.

If we operate under the notion that NS can wreck LS at will, what is the point of LS as a sector at all?


The problem is I AM a low-sec player as well as a null-sec player. I do actually see both sides of this.

I like small group PvP in low sec. Your plan seriously harms that by encouraging a huge increase in gate-camps... which hinders/prevents low-sec roams for PvP and FW mechanics.

You have to understand that the ability to bypass combat in eve always helps small number groups in eve. It allows them to take care of logistics/intelligence gathering/travel without having to bring enough numbers to survive combat. That goes for cynos for JF's, cloaks, interdiction proof ships, whatever. While it may help large member groups as well... if you have large numbers available you can afford to throw large numbers at the problem. And in Eve that works much of the time.

Are JF's helpful for large null-sec groups? Of course. They're also helpful for small null-sec groups and low-sec groups and pay-for-haul services. The difference is that one of those categories has a large number of players to use to try to handle that difficulty... so while you're making it less convenient for them you're harming everyone else (aside from dedicated gatecampers) a lot more.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#604 - 2017-03-27 18:46:30 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maximillian Bonaparte wrote:
Eventually you will get a fight, and eventually even win! :)


No.

The counter-argument has been that NS will flood and wreck LS, if they cant cyno their JFs through it.

They are saying that LS cant win that fight.



The counter-argument is the huge increase in gate camps will wreck LS... but that the ones who'll be able to smash through the increased gate-camps (and thus least hurt by the change) are the large null-sec alliances.

The ones who'll be hindered most by those gate-camps are smaller null-sec corps, low-sec industrial and PVE corps, and FW participants (both officially and the pirates that prey on FW plexes).

The only people actually helped by the idea... are gate campers.
Salvos Rhoska
#605 - 2017-03-27 18:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Scialt wrote:
You have to understand that the ability to bypass combat in eve always helps small number groups in eve. .


In LS, its helping the ceaseless, lol-cynoing transport of material between HS and NS.
The small corp transit is nothing compared to the HS<->NS conjoined processes of large entities.

As you yourself pointed out, where it not for the threat of hundreds of NS ships flooding LS to escort non-cyno ships, LS could handle its own logistics with sub-caps.

You cant have it both ways
Salvos Rhoska
#606 - 2017-03-27 18:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Scialt wrote:
The only people actually helped by the idea... are gate campers.


Then give me a better solution to preventing HS<->NS lol-cyno transit through LS

What is the point to LS when material can lol-cyno through it, and LS can be crushed by NS at anytime if they bother?

You say you like small gang in LS.
Small gang against who? For what?
Whom are your targets?
Please dont tell me gatecamping to catch noobs on their first trip...

Meanwhile billions upon billions in isk of HS-NS JFs are lol-cynoing right over your head.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#607 - 2017-03-27 19:05:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scialt wrote:
The only people actually helped by the idea... are gate campers.


Then give me a better solution to preventing HS<->NS lol-cyno transit through LS

What is the point to LS when material can lol-cyno through it, and LS can be crushed by NS at anytime if they bother?

No 'solution' is needed, because it's no a problem to begin with.

It's only in your small mind that there is an issue.

Cynos provide far more content then they remove, especially in facilitating convenient logistics resupply of lost PvP ships as well as the ability to move products to markets where they can sell them so they have the ISK to do so.

There is no downside to cynos in lowsec.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#608 - 2017-03-27 19:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scialt wrote:
The only people actually helped by the idea... are gate campers.


Then give me a better solution to preventing HS<->NS lol-cyno transit through LS

What is the point to LS when material can lol-cyno through it, and LS can be crushed by NS at anytime if they bother?

You say you like small gang in LS.
Small gang against who? For what?
Whom are your targets?
Please dont tell me gatecamping to catch noobs on their first trip...

Meanwhile billions upon billions in isk of HS-NS JFs are lol-cynoing right over your head.


...remove citadel tethering

infact, nobody really cares about jump freighters, we want to fight ships with guns we couldnt care if jump freighters "lol-cyno"

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Salvos Rhoska
#609 - 2017-03-27 19:10:33 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Cynos provide far more content then they remove.


JFs lol-cynoing through LS with billions in cargo provide no content to LS.

Just provides convenient profit for entities running them, with a negligible chance of interception in LS.
Salvos Rhoska
#610 - 2017-03-27 19:17:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lan Wang wrote:
...remove citadel tethering

infact, nobody really cares about jump freighters, we want to fight ships with guns we couldnt care if jump freighters "lol-cyno"


Thanks, that's a start.

But we both know that is not an impediment to lol-cynoing through LS.
And its unlikely CCP is going to remove tethering on their flagship Upwell project.

So who exactly are you fighting in LS, and why, whilst there is billions upon billions in JFs and cargo cynoing right over your head constantly between HS-NS?

Farming little noobs on their first trip to LS? Small PI freighters?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#611 - 2017-03-27 19:24:00 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Cynos provide far more content then they remove.


JFs lol-cynoing through LS with billions in cargo provide no content to LS.

Just provides convenient profit for entities running them, with a negligible chance of interception in LS.


It's like you don't understand that there won't be content if the goods don't reach the destination. The reason why so much stuff move between HS and NS is because that stuff gets used. The ship gets flown, the ammo gets shot, the fitting get fit, the mats gets processed and all of it get exploded at the end of the whole process.
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#612 - 2017-03-27 19:27:12 UTC
I really think we should introduce maybe some npc caravans that don't really have a preset destination (maybe use the same rng thing that ded s ites have) and they just go gate to gate on autopilot so there's stuff for the local pirates to shoot again which should bring in some more old blood and maybe even new enthusiastic alpha players and eventually we can stop using npc carvans when the server count is too low without telling anyone because everyone will be too busy shooting each other, which requires them to be supplied by real players it's also important to note that this should be a lowsec only thing but that doesn really leave highsec or even lowsec or wormholesec out of the picture it just means that the supplies could come from any industrialist in any space and it will keep isk circulating which just like in an real life economies the velocity of i sk is a good measure of how well an economy is going not to mention again lowsec is not dead it just needs a few tweaks and will be as good as always

@lunettelulu7

Salvos Rhoska
#613 - 2017-03-27 19:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Cynos provide far more content then they remove.


JFs lol-cynoing through LS with billions in cargo provide no content to LS.

Just provides convenient profit for entities running them, with a negligible chance of interception in LS.


It's like you don't understand that there won't be content if the goods don't reach the destination. The reason why so much stuff move between HS and NS is because that stuff gets used. The ship gets flown, the ammo gets shot, the fitting get fit, the mats gets processed and all of it get exploded at the end of the whole process.


Ofc I understand that.
Makes you rich for leveraging HS markets (Jita) with NS benefits.

But does this justify lol-cynoing through LS in 7+bil JFs + billions in cargo value with almost no chance of interception?

That NS resources can access HS markets (Jita/Forge) and back by passing LS with little to no risk of interception?

In HS CONCORD covers you. In LS you lol-cyno past. In NS either blue up, or lol-cyno some more.

Wtf is then even the point of LS?

Its made a mockery of, daily, by billions upon billions in cynoing value over their heads that they cant aggress.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#614 - 2017-03-27 19:39:05 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Farming little noobs on their first trip to LS? Small PI freighters?


yeah just a load of noobs tbh...

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Salvos Rhoska
#615 - 2017-03-27 19:41:13 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
yeah just a load of noobs tbh...


Fair enough, but you dont need cynos in LS for that.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#616 - 2017-03-27 19:45:41 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Cynos provide far more content then they remove.


JFs lol-cynoing through LS with billions in cargo provide no content to LS.

Just provides convenient profit for entities running them, with a negligible chance of interception in LS.


It's like you don't understand that there won't be content if the goods don't reach the destination. The reason why so much stuff move between HS and NS is because that stuff gets used. The ship gets flown, the ammo gets shot, the fitting get fit, the mats gets processed and all of it get exploded at the end of the whole process.


Ofc I understand that.
Makes you rich for leveraging HS markets vs NS benefits.

But does this justify lol-cynoing through LS in 7+bil JFs + billions in cargo value with almost no chance of interception?

That NS resources can access HS markets (Jita/Forge) and back by passing LS with little to no risk of interception?
In HS CONCORD covers you. In LS you lol-cyno past. In NS, your home.

Wtf is then even the point of LS?

Its made a mockery of, daily, by billions in cynoing value over their heads that they cant reach.


The last time CCP made changes to jump drive enabled ship, they ended up making sure JFs had lots of range and low fatigue to be sure our lifeline were still working because in the current way things are setup, it would be broken if those lines were cut. The problem isn't that null can or can't curb-stomp low sec. The problem is that the entire null sec system is fed by the JFs and the system to allow it to live with less blood pumped into it by a **** load of JFs trips just aren't existing.

If I was to build everything I use in Null out of stuff that does not come from HS, I would end up trashing an exceptional amount of trit and pyrite for example because the mineral balance is not right. I also can't ever get much T2 mods/ships built because the moon goo is not available if you cut JF transit. In my current region, I would also pretty much have to turn all doctrine to armor because I can't sources shield modules without the trains running.

Unless your changes is to come with more to make living outside of empire a reasonable endeavor, then it won't happen.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#617 - 2017-03-27 20:03:00 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scialt wrote:
You have to understand that the ability to bypass combat in eve always helps small number groups in eve. .


In LS, its helping the ceaseless, lol-cynoing transport of material between HS and NS.
The small corp transit is nothing compared to the HS<->NS conjoined processes of large entities.

As you yourself pointed out, where it not for the threat of hundreds of NS ships flooding LS to escort non-cyno ships, LS could handle its own logistics with sub-caps.

You cant have it both ways


Not with an increase in gate camps they can't. THAT'S what I pointed out.

Your solution is to make a change that makes gate camps more likely to catch things. That increases the number of gate camps. And then who has the easiest time getting through gate camps?

Those with big numbers. That applies to LS groups as well. If you're 10 jumps out from the nearest LS/HS gateway... and there are always 4 systems camped... how are you going to manage that as a 10 man corp?

The answer... you can't. You end up moving back to highsec. If I have to jump through 15 LS systems to get to where the action is in FW and I have to navigate 6 camped systems to even get there... I'm going to do something else instead. The end result is low sec becomes all about gate camps and low-sec travel sucks.

You're missing the problem I think. Yes... there will be smaller groups who try to survive in low-sec or null-sec with this change. There will also be lazy members of large null sec groups. Those will present targets. Those targets attract more gate camps. As gate camps increase, travel becomes more difficult for EVERYONE... FW participants, low sec PVE types, low sec industry corps, small null-sec corps and large null-sec corps. EVERYONE suffers the travel difficulty from increased gatecamps.

So then the question becomes... what groups can cope with that? I think the large null sec groups will be able to by throwing numbers at it. They won't ENJOY it... but they'll be able to handle it. I'm not sure anyone else (FW, small industrial corps, PVE types, solo pirates) will be able to handle dealing with a large number of camped gates (assuming the gates are camped with enough firepower to take down freighters reasonably fast).

It seems like in your analysis you stop after the first action and response. You seem to be thinking... no cyno = freighters through low = content!

But the results keep going from that... no cyno = freighters through low = more gate camps = flight from low for those who cant handle additional gate camps = large escort fleets that can overpower gate camps = probably more responses that I can't imagine yet.

Can you imagine FW style combat if every third gate you go through is camped? That sounds really crappy to me.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#618 - 2017-03-27 20:11:03 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scialt wrote:
The only people actually helped by the idea... are gate campers.


Then give me a better solution to preventing HS<->NS lol-cyno transit through LS

What is the point to LS when material can lol-cyno through it, and LS can be crushed by NS at anytime if they bother?

You say you like small gang in LS.
Small gang against who? For what?
Whom are your targets?
Please dont tell me gatecamping to catch noobs on their first trip...

Meanwhile billions upon billions in isk of HS-NS JFs are lol-cynoing right over your head.



I simply don't think that's a problem in need of a solution.

I use low-sec for FW fights. I enjoy those immensely. Because of the plex ship limitations I can find solo or small gang combat regularly. If I cruise belts I can also find miners to attack. I haven't tried to scan down missioners... but if they're out there I can't see why that wouldn't work as well.

If those people have a lot more difficulty GETTING to those low sec systems... that combat disappears. And gate camps make travel tougher for everyone... not just "lol-cyno" people. The camps are going to kill all non-aligned travelers... not just let everyone but freighters from null-sec pass.

I don't think a change that adds more gate camps to low-sec is good for low-sec population.
Salvos Rhoska
#619 - 2017-03-27 20:22:24 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Meanwhile billions upon billions in isk of HS-NS JFs are lol-cynoing right over your head.

I simply don't think that's a problem in need of a solution.


Alrighty then. I do think its a problem, and Jita/Forge is the result.
Salvos Rhoska
#620 - 2017-03-27 20:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The problem is that the entire null sec system is fed by the JFs and the system to allow it to live with less blood pumped into it by a **** load of JFs trips just aren't existing.


Yes, as is.
But lol-cynoining past/through LS to head to Jita, is a cancer that must end.

Fortunately, there are adaptive options.

A) Encourage non-cyno supply of needed material from HS to LS warehouses/trade hubs, for NS to carry forward to its own use, and from LS to HS reciprocally. Set good buy/sell orders, and they will come to you. Set good delivery contracts, and they will risk it.

B) LS itself can provide most of those needed materials, either locally or by shipping it in, and thus supply those to hubs nearby for delivery to NS. LS is thin, but the materials are there. Give them a market to trade with you.

Work with local LS producers/markets for your needs rather than the current system of largely ignoring and pissing on LS with JFs, thus screwing LS entirely, in favor of Jita trade/Forge production.

C) Pass through WH chains.

D) Brute force shipments through, in either direction. But this is burdensome inorder to prevent destruction of the cargo carriers (albeit this is largely arbitrary, as a Tornado Fleet even in HS can alpha any cargo ship there and without warning anyways)