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[March] Balance Tweaks: Fighters, Supercarriers & Burst Projectors

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Hathor' Ra
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2017-03-04 20:40:56 UTC
CCP: We created new gameplay, new ships, new level of escalation of heavy forces at low and nul-sec
Players: WOW that's cool! CCP we love you!
CCP: we want to tell you that we want to se how do you like them and maybe we'll improve them
Players: Of cause! These carriers are so cool! CCP you are so cool!!!

...one month later...

CCP: We would like to impruve the gameplay... We'll nerf these cool ships which you like so much. You will like these improvements!
Players: Okay... If you think so... but...
CCP: no more question! New gameplay will arrive at 3, 2, 1....

... one more moth later....

CCP: Hi guys! We would like to make your gameplay more better! We want to make some tweaks at your cool ships
Players: WTF??? O_o
CCP: we want to nerf them more... Three times more... Because we think that such gameplay will be better!
Players: We love these ships! We bought skins for them! We want to fly them! Please STOP!!!
CCP: No more questions! You can test all these cool innovations at Sisi! Just tell us what are you thinking about them!
Players: We tested. We don't want them at Tranq
CCP: Thank you for your answers We think that all these tweaks are very cool! New update will arrive at Tranq at 3, 2, 1...
Players: But we don't want them!
CCP: No more questions! Enjoy new gameplay of new EVE ! EVE become better and better every day! \
Players: WTF??? O_o

P.S.:You forget to nerf all Logistic ships. One target - one support.


Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#202 - 2017-03-05 06:46:04 UTC
I have maxed out drone skills, tested forsaken hubs, Havens, and sanctums on sisi.

Used both T1 and T2 fighters, the results are clear.

Super ratting still works fine outside of sanctums.

Carriers burn hubs ok.

There's nothing in these changes that makes a significant different in PVP, if I can lock you in my carrier, you are going to die if you don't warp away.

You can maybe kill a T1 fighter on your way down, but you will die.

All this does is nerf carrier ratting, super ticks are unaffected.

Before: anything cruiser down was a threat to your fighters in sites, kill them first, fighters don't die.

After: Every single site you have to pull drones between waves to stop battle ships from alpha striking them off the field this is with max drone durability etc. even then they still may get blapped pretty regularly. There is no way to keep your fighters from dying with these changes.

This is a hard nerf to carrier ratting. No more no less.

Amusingly enough, you can now just warp 0 on rock havens and do smart bombing carriers and get better tick efficiency than with fighters.

I think rather than whining on the forums about this change, it just needs to be escalation through action.

Head shot every high-sec incursion spawn, kill more high-sec players, and burn down every poco in high-sec if this change goes live. KILL the game and the way they want it to be played if you can't play it your way.
Cade Windstalker
#203 - 2017-03-05 07:50:34 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
I think rather than whining on the forums about this change, it just needs to be escalation through action.

Head shot every high-sec incursion spawn, kill more high-sec players, and burn down every poco in high-sec if this change goes live. KILL the game and the way they want it to be played if you can't play it your way.


I think this would probably just make the CCP devs chuckle (and more than a few incursion runners, given how the last "lets nuke Incursions" group ended). If you want to make an argument post a log of your wallet ticks and fighter losses before and after the change.

Maybe CCP decides that's acceptable, maybe they don't, but it's got a better chance of doing something than going off and nuking High Sec does.

Personally I'm not really a fan of "can't avoid losing Fighters" in PvE. I'm fine with them taking agro, I'm fine with it being a little difficult to keep them alive, but at the end of the day people PvE to make ISK and having it cost a significant chunk of income to do the PvE in the first place defeats the point a bit.

If I had to guess, based on what you posted, the sig radius changes have pushed Fighters into the realm where Battleships start shooting them, and that's what's causing the problems here. If possible I'd like to see the agro mechanics around fighters changed a bit so they don't take BS aggro the way Heavy Drones sometimes do.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#204 - 2017-03-05 10:34:14 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


If you want to make an argument post a log of your wallet ticks and fighter losses before and after the change.

Maybe CCP decides that's acceptable, maybe they don't, but it's got a better chance of doing something than going off and nuking High Sec does.

If I had to guess, based on what you posted, the sig radius changes have pushed Fighters into the realm where Battleships start shooting them, and that's what's causing the problems here. If possible I'd like to see the agro mechanics around fighters changed a bit so they don't take BS aggro the way Heavy Drones sometimes do.


Once I find a more stable place to chain sites, I can give you a better estimate of tick changes.

Once the battle ships start to agress it becomes much harder to keep them alive, they will sit around 60-70% until you clear most of the smaller ****, but after you clear a few battleships it seems that they start trying to blap your fighters.

If you aren't running 3-4 FSU's though they will die if you get the same squad targeted, or you'll have to pull them if you see them start to go lower than 50% if the battle ships aren't targeting you.

This also means you have to be alot more sparing with your missle attacks, as it not at all, or you can't relaunch fast enough to cycle fighters through their switch time.

Will post more soon
Captain Awkward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2017-03-05 11:17:16 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:


If you want to make an argument post a log of your wallet ticks and fighter losses before and after the change.

Maybe CCP decides that's acceptable, maybe they don't, but it's got a better chance of doing something than going off and nuking High Sec does.

If I had to guess, based on what you posted, the sig radius changes have pushed Fighters into the realm where Battleships start shooting them, and that's what's causing the problems here. If possible I'd like to see the agro mechanics around fighters changed a bit so they don't take BS aggro the way Heavy Drones sometimes do.


Once I find a more stable place to chain sites, I can give you a better estimate of tick changes.

Once the battle ships start to agress it becomes much harder to keep them alive, they will sit around 60-70% until you clear most of the smaller ****, but after you clear a few battleships it seems that they start trying to blap your fighters.

If you aren't running 3-4 FSU's though they will die if you get the same squad targeted, or you'll have to pull them if you see them start to go lower than 50% if the battle ships aren't targeting you.

This also means you have to be alot more sparing with your missle attacks, as it not at all, or you can't relaunch fast enough to cycle fighters through their switch time.

Will post more soon


Can you please tell me how you managed to find / spawn Havens / Sanctums? I cant find a single system that as any combat anomaly. I was told to upgrade a system so the sites spawn, but I nether have a ship that is able to transport sov upgrades, nor do I have any idea how to use them. Its seems that CCP is making it incredible hard to actually test these changes.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#206 - 2017-03-05 11:48:44 UTC
Quote:


Can you please tell me how you managed to find / spawn Havens / Sanctums? I cant find a single system that as any combat anomaly. I was told to upgrade a system so the sites spawn, but I nether have a ship that is able to transport sov upgrades, nor do I have any idea how to use them. Its seems that CCP is making it incredible hard to actually test these changes.


It wasn't easy, found a system someone else had already upgraded in impass and was grinding it a bit. 9I-SRF if you wanna see for yourself. but I suggest looking somewhere that has sanctums more profilerated than this place.

In that system I chained Rock Havens and Forsaken Hubs, made 30-40mil ticks being conservative and pulling my fighters in on the final waves. If you can't pull your fighters in fast enough on the final waves or during a big wave to reset agro, they will die. Even a few seconds too long and without good durability skills and FSU's they will die.

Quote:
[Nidhoggur, Smugest Sniper's Nidhoggur]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Sentient Drone Navigation Computer
Capital Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Capital Shield Extender II

Networked Sensor Array
Fighter Support Unit I
Fighter Support Unit I
Fighter Support Unit I
Fighter Support Unit I

Capital Core Defense Field Extender II
Capital Core Defense Field Extender II
Capital Core Defense Field Extender II





Einherji I x20
Templar I x48


I pretty much maxed drone support skills and fighters 4 light fighters 3.(I have higher on live now) I've lost 2 fighters in the first haven until I changed tactics but I need to see how much worse Gas havens are with these changes to know for sure. So I dunno, I'm mixed in opinion thus far, if I didn't have the skills and fit I used, I would have had more dead fighters than I did. I want to try with 3 FSU and a cyno but we'll see what the other sites do before I make any final judgement.

Quote:
2017.03.05 11:18:50 Bounty Prize Corporation Tax -2,000,539 ISK 1,169,325,254 ISK [r] Corporation tax on pirate bounties
2017.03.05 11:18:50 Bounty Prizes 40,010,793 ISK 1,171,325,793 ISK [r] Smugest Sniper got bounty prizes for killing pirates in 9I-SRF
2017.03.05 10:58:50 Bounty Prize Corporation Tax -1,540,888 ISK 1,131,315,000 ISK [r] Corporation tax on pirate bounties
2017.03.05 10:58:50 Bounty Prizes 30,817,762 ISK 1,132,855,888 ISK [r] Smugest Sniper got bounty prizes for killing pirates in 9I-SRF
Zazz Blammy Matazz
Doomheim
#207 - 2017-03-06 11:06:43 UTC
Larrakin, the risk from firing a bust projector is still not inline with the reward. They have near the same penalty as a doomsday with
Nowhere near the offensive/defensive capabilities. If you insist on these rediculously useless periods of effect, you need to remove the jump/cloak/warp penalty if you actually want them used. As they stand, they're still useless.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#208 - 2017-03-06 12:33:52 UTC
So much tears from the PVE 0.0 Carebears.

I ratted about 40 hours in a niddy. My drones had around 5-6 times the aggro and i managed to lose only 1 fighter.

If this is 100% for some guys or way to much. No it isn´t stop crying. Carrier ratting was/is way to safe for the ticks.

This is a start.

+1
Lugh Crow-Slave
#209 - 2017-03-06 12:36:13 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
So much tears from the PVE 0.0 Carebears.

I ratted about 40 hours in a niddy. My drones had around 5-6 times the aggro and i managed to lose only 1 fighter.

If this is 100% for some guys or way to much. No it isn´t stop crying. Carrier ratting was/is way to safe for the ticks.

This is a start.

+1




i would gladly see ratting carriers made nonviable if it some how meant they could have a decent place in pvp q.q

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#210 - 2017-03-06 13:44:13 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
Quote:


Can you please tell me how you managed to find / spawn Havens / Sanctums? I cant find a single system that as any combat anomaly. I was told to upgrade a system so the sites spawn, but I nether have a ship that is able to transport sov upgrades, nor do I have any idea how to use them. Its seems that CCP is making it incredible hard to actually test these changes.


It wasn't easy, found a system someone else had already upgraded in impass and was grinding it a bit. 9I-SRF if you wanna see for yourself. but I suggest looking somewhere that has sanctums more profilerated than this place.

In that system I chained Rock Havens and Forsaken Hubs, made 30-40mil ticks being conservative and pulling my fighters in on the final waves. If you can't pull your fighters in fast enough on the final waves or during a big wave to reset agro, they will die. Even a few seconds too long and without good durability skills and FSU's they will die.

Quote:
[Nidhoggur, Smugest Sniper's Nidhoggur]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Sentient Drone Navigation Computer
Capital Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Capital Shield Extender II

Networked Sensor Array
Fighter Support Unit I
Fighter Support Unit I
Fighter Support Unit I
Fighter Support Unit I

Capital Core Defense Field Extender II
Capital Core Defense Field Extender II
Capital Core Defense Field Extender II





Einherji I x20
Templar I x48


I pretty much maxed drone support skills and fighters 4 light fighters 3.(I have higher on live now) I've lost 2 fighters in the first haven until I changed tactics but I need to see how much worse Gas havens are with these changes to know for sure. So I dunno, I'm mixed in opinion thus far, if I didn't have the skills and fit I used, I would have had more dead fighters than I did. I want to try with 3 FSU and a cyno but we'll see what the other sites do before I make any final judgement.

Quote:
2017.03.05 11:18:50 Bounty Prize Corporation Tax -2,000,539 ISK 1,169,325,254 ISK [r] Corporation tax on pirate bounties
2017.03.05 11:18:50 Bounty Prizes 40,010,793 ISK 1,171,325,793 ISK [r] Smugest Sniper got bounty prizes for killing pirates in 9I-SRF
2017.03.05 10:58:50 Bounty Prize Corporation Tax -1,540,888 ISK 1,131,315,000 ISK [r] Corporation tax on pirate bounties
2017.03.05 10:58:50 Bounty Prizes 30,817,762 ISK 1,132,855,888 ISK [r] Smugest Sniper got bounty prizes for killing pirates in 9I-SRF


I'll be on later to get on SiSi, but if you play before that then try a Drone Durability Enhancer rig and see if it helps.

I'm also going to give the old "distract them with ECM bursting" trick people moved away from when fighters/carriers changed.
Solidus Obscura
Nasty-Boyz
Templis CALSF
#211 - 2017-03-06 14:08:33 UTC
Quote:
Lastly, there was a bug when our AI evaluated the threat of fighters. NPCs didn't consider fighters as threatening as they should have. This bug has now been fixed, and NPCs will more often shoot at fighters.


This is just going to make PVEing in Carriers a lot more frustrating. How will you make it easier for players to see that their fighters are taking significant damage? Right now 1-99% is just a single color.

Solidus for CSM!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=512158&find=unread
Juvir
Omega Nebula BattleWorks
#212 - 2017-03-06 14:12:15 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
So much tears from the PVE 0.0 Carebears.

I ratted about 40 hours in a niddy. My drones had around 5-6 times the aggro and i managed to lose only 1 fighter.

If this is 100% for some guys or way to much. No it isn´t stop crying. Carrier ratting was/is way to safe for the ticks.

This is a start.

+1


Yes, because this is so OP compared to wormhole mining and site running -_-

Next nerf coming will be incursions. I mean why not? We've released a FTP model, might as well put everything past alpha behind a "pay wall". One of the most attractive things about this game is that you CAN make enough income to pay for your accounts using in game currency. But hey, my WH group can't kill a carrier with 3 people, so we need to nerf them.
Cade Windstalker
#213 - 2017-03-06 14:16:22 UTC
Zazz Blammy Matazz wrote:
Larrakin, the risk from firing a bust projector is still not inline with the reward. They have near the same penalty as a doomsday with
Nowhere near the offensive/defensive capabilities. If you insist on these rediculously useless periods of effect, you need to remove the jump/cloak/warp penalty if you actually want them used. As they stand, they're still useless.


They're not supposed to be in line with the reward of a Titan Doomsday though. That's a much more expensive ship producing a shorter duration effect. Completely removing the penalties associated with a Burst Projector would also completely remove almost all trade off with their use and make them incredibly ubiquitous in Null combat. Given the strength of their AoE effects I don't think that would be particularly good for the game.
Juvir
Omega Nebula BattleWorks
#214 - 2017-03-06 14:48:34 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Zazz Blammy Matazz wrote:
Larrakin, the risk from firing a bust projector is still not inline with the reward. They have near the same penalty as a doomsday with
Nowhere near the offensive/defensive capabilities. If you insist on these rediculously useless periods of effect, you need to remove the jump/cloak/warp penalty if you actually want them used. As they stand, they're still useless.


They're not supposed to be in line with the reward of a Titan Doomsday though. That's a much more expensive ship producing a shorter duration effect. Completely removing the penalties associated with a Burst Projector would also completely remove almost all trade off with their use and make them incredibly ubiquitous in Null combat. Given the strength of their AoE effects I don't think that would be particularly good for the game.


I think he more meant the time of the effect vs the duration of the negative effect. I agree it shouldn't be as powerful as a doomsday, but at the same time the negative effect is almost as bad. If the duration of the effect isn't going to increase porportionally to the effectiveness vs. the risk, it's never going to be used.
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#215 - 2017-03-06 15:52:30 UTC
Is there even a single comment on this thread agreeing fighte sig rad or aggro needs a nerf? lol ^^
I haven't seen one and I agree with fighter pve/pvp beeing in a good place.

Maybe Anti-fighters are a bit too good at their job against upers, but otherwise?
Cade Windstalker
#216 - 2017-03-06 16:20:48 UTC
Juvir wrote:
I think he more meant the time of the effect vs the duration of the negative effect. I agree it shouldn't be as powerful as a doomsday, but at the same time the negative effect is almost as bad. If the duration of the effect isn't going to increase porportionally to the effectiveness vs. the risk, it's never going to be used.


I'd agree that the duration on the effect could use either a skill affecting it or a reduction, considering some Titan DDs have a shorter duration on the module than these things do, but I don't think the risk/reward trade off should ever feel like a no brainer for these modules. These should be something where you go "OMG the enemy left himself open to this, do it now!" not an "oh, it's off cooldown, firing burst projector again".

Destriouth Hollow wrote:
Is there even a single comment on this thread agreeing fighte sig rad or aggro needs a nerf? lol ^^
I haven't seen one and I agree with fighter pve/pvp beeing in a good place.

Maybe Anti-fighters are a bit too good at their job against upers, but otherwise?


I actually do think the sig radius changes are probably justified, I'm just a little worried about two things here:


  • The combined effect of the agro fix and the sig radius change on NPC agro in sites, since the sig radius change pushes Fighters up past the level of Medium Drones and almost to the same level as Heavies.

  • That Fighters already don't have a ton of HP so while I like the idea of increasing counter play it feels a bit too binary if they're just getting nuked off field all the time considering in small to medium gang fights an Ishtar can still yank his drones in as they take agro most of the time.


The problem here is that in larger fights drones and other things that work well against Fighters just nuke them off the field by sheer volume of fire, but if you balance them around surviving agro under those circumstances then they become unkillable wrecking machines in smaller fights. I think CCP is more balancing around the smaller fight case since that's more controllable.
Trevize Demerzel
#217 - 2017-03-06 17:11:07 UTC
Few things


#1 - I don't understand the point of these Dev posts. All they do is anger the player base and CCP does the change anyway ignoring pages of feedback.

#2 - before this change goes live I believe they must first fix/change he ui so players can easily see the % health of each fighter.

#3 - for ewar each fighter must be treated as an individual. Why should it be easier to lock down a [super]carrier then a drone boat Dominix.

Balancing things is all well in good but the CCP nerf bat swings way to extreme these days.

These [proposed] nerfs must come with the ability for the players to more easily see fighters' health. Or must we all start support tickets for getting fighters refunded due to poor ui design. We will be loosing fighters faster then the ui pop-op will appear. So makes logical sense to me.

-
Thomas Lot
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#218 - 2017-03-06 17:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Lot
Make no mistake, THIS

Isk Faucet

Isk Faucet

is the reason for this change to fighter sig and npc aggression. No matter that virtually EVERY carrier pilot does not want this change, it is being forced on us without ANY consulting opinion from the player base that it is effecting.

Hey CCP Devs, why not consult the player base BEFORE making such a drastic change instead of forcing it on us and asking for our opinion which you will obviously ignore.

If you don't want or do not plan to use our opinion on a topic, then don't ask for it.

SHEESH
xOmGx
Heroic Farming inc.
#219 - 2017-03-06 17:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: xOmGx
CCP nerfs everything people like

as for me they nerfed Motherships so hard that i am starting to think that they are super useless now

Before they used to be interesting anti capital plarform that used to put out 10-13k dps (back then it was 2x Dred DPS)
It was worth to get a Mothership coz it did reasonable DPS for its costs
It was also able to hold its own against subcapitals
Now all supers - just a EHP box - easy kills for subcapitals who cant defend themselfs

Now mother do what? 4-6k dps? LOL compared to 10-15k Dread dps is just LOL lol loooool DPS
*by dps i mean consistent DPS 3 torpedo thingies are not serious in capital engagement*

Now these changes hit capitals even more making them more and more... useless

CCP should boost Supers and make them worth their pricetag
And change claim mechanics that will motivate Alliances field capitals and super on battlefield

Every capital need boost (maybe beside dreads tho they do need some dps reduction imho)

Ow ye CCP plz fire the person responsible for fighter mechanics (how EWAR works on them) it take 2-3 BlackBirds to lock out Carrier / Mothership lel

And start doing something that matter - make it possible to heal fighters in combat and show each figher HP in the fighter bar (not just RED)
Thomas Lot
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#220 - 2017-03-06 17:49:52 UTC
xOmGx wrote:
- make it possible to heal fighters in combat and show each fighter HP in the fighter bar (not just RED)



THIS ^

You want a feature that the Carrier and Super player-base can support? Look into this.