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Limit the amount of active War Decs for Alliances and Corps

Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#41 - 2016-12-11 16:33:56 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
I agree with the OP to some extent.

To me, the problem is that a new-ish industry corp is extremely underpowered compared to combat corps both new, old, large, and small.

A combat corp will wipe the floor against players who have most of there SP in mining and spend most of their time lasering rocks.
The newer corp, already struggling to make a profit in industry PvP, is now either forced to hire mercs with ISK they haven't been able to make or spin their ships in station, all while PvPing vs their warring corp and every industry player in all of their operating regions.
A merc corp that has wardecced an industry corp has invariably wardecced several other industry corps; work together, numbers are a great evener of odds.

Quote:
Sure they could just stay in an NPC corp but then the corp/guild mechanic, a social mechanic found and expected in every game, isn't used for the social aspect of the game which is arguably the core of an industry corp.
A wardec shouldn't stop an industry corp from going about its business; set up a private chat channel for corp members alts and use NPC corp alts for mining and hauling to retain the social engine you'd get if you were using your main characters.

Avoid the hubs and trade routes if you continue to play on your main, mine in skiffs and in quiet systems (more belts than locals is good), 3rd party haul your stuff.

Quote:
IMO, these corps should have a little bit of assistance in this area. Combat characters are kind of a requirement for all corps, and an unnecessary one at that.
The assistance is in the ally mechanic, and in that blanket wardecs produce a large number of free potential allies, if only you'd work together.

On top of that some mercs will ally with a wardec "victim" for free to get some fights against their competitors; there's a couple that offer leadership and training services to people who've been wardecced, you'd be surprised what a bunch of industry bears and newbs can do with decent leadership; ask PIRAT.

Quote:
TLDR;
A newish combat corp does not require miners.
A newish mining corp should not require fighters.
Actually you're wrong, indirectly everybody requires miners, just as everybody indirectly needs combat pilots; Eve isn't just a PvP game, it's a PvP ecosystem.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#42 - 2016-12-11 17:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Quote:
TLDR;
A newish combat corp does not require miners.
A newish mining corp should not require fighters.
Actually you're wrong, indirectly everybody requires miners, just as everybody indirectly needs combat pilots; Eve isn't just a PvP game, it's a PvP ecosystem.

I disagree.
Miners need combat pilots both directly and indirectly.
Combat pilots do not directly need miners in highsec.

When have you ever needed a miner in highsec? i.e. the pilot, not their goods.
Iain Cariaba
#43 - 2016-12-11 18:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
you'd be surprised what a bunch of industry bears and newbs can do with decent leadership

THANK YOU!!!

I've been telling people this for years.

Undock a bunch of small ships, led by someone who has half a clue what they're doing, and you'll either kill the merc, or make him dock up. Trust me, he doesn't like ship spinning any more than you do, and if you make him do it enough, he'll leave you alone.

Do this in cheap ships and you can lose a lot of them without a great impact on your wallet. If each person in your corp keeps 10 pvp frigates on hand, that's 50m isk investment for PvP. Destroyers are also a cheap option with better dps.

Bring a few t1 logi frigs, too.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2016-12-11 19:06:41 UTC
And a maulus.

Who even cares if you lose the lot? it'll take you a couple of hours to earn it back just mining veld. You might even enjoy it.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#45 - 2016-12-11 20:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
chaosgrimm wrote:
I disagree.
Feel free to do so, it doesn't make you right. You also managed to completely miss the point I was making with reference to Eve being a PvP ecosystem in that everything is inextricably linked.

Quote:
Miners need combat pilots both directly and indirectly.
Correct, directly for protection, indirectly because without them there would be no market for a miners products.

Quote:
Combat pilots do not directly need miners in highsec.
I didn't say that they did. Miners produce minerals which make ships modules etc that combat pilots use, hence my very deliberate use of the word indirectly.

Quote:
When have you ever needed a miner in highsec? i.e. the pilot, not their goods.
I am a hisec miner.

Wardec corps are good for business, so are suicide gankers.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#46 - 2016-12-11 22:19:44 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I am a hisec miner.

Wardec corps are good for business, so are suicide gankers.


Whoa! You're a highsec miner?
Im incredibly shocked that your toon is in a corp that has only 1 member and 0 War History!
/sarcasm...

You're kinda lending to the point I was making.

The whole point of my initial post in this thread is the difficulty of miners being able to use the corp system to create an industry corp, especially when starting out.
That difficulty is due to wardecs.

Even well established indy corps like red frog keep indy toons out of corp... and bake things like this into the description:
Quote:

Wardeccers: There are no freighters in Red Frog, we use out-of-corp alts.


New indy player experience:
We are glad you want to join our highsec indy corp!
You have elected to create an industry type character. Unlike the overwhelming majority of mmos where social corp/guild features come standard, you need to use one of your character slots to circumvent unbalanced game mechanics in order to use these corporate features. Just let me know the name of the new character you create!

Sigh... a QoL change for indy corps would be nice.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#47 - 2016-12-11 22:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
chaosgrimm wrote:
Whoa! You're a highsec miner?
Im incredibly shocked that your toon is in a corp that has only 1 member and 0 War History!
/sarcasm...

You're kinda lending to the point I was making.
My reasons for being in a one man corp are fairly irrelevant and in no way support your point.

The corp itself is a holdover from when I used to provide a service that created corps with sufficient standings for a highsec pos to be erected; sadly that service is obsolete due to game changes, now it's just an NPC tax dodge. Regardless of being in a one man corp I haven't lost the social aspect of Eve, being active in many of the chat channels that cross corp and alliance borders.

Quote:
The whole point of my initial post in this thread is the difficulty of miners being able to use the corp system to create an industry corp, especially when starting out.
That difficulty is due to wardecs.
Which is wrong, the difficulty of creating an industrial corp is almost entirely down to poor leadership. Avoiding a wardec is trivial, even more so now than ever before and you don't have to drop corp to do it; you just have to think about what you're doing.

It's always easier to blame someone else instead of putting in some effort though.

Quote:
Even well established indy corps like red frog keep indy toons out of corp... and bake things like this into the description:
Quote:

Wardeccers: There are no freighters in Red Frog, we use out-of-corp alts.
They've adapted their gameplay to minimise the risks to their members as they go about their business, they haven't asked CCP to change the game to suit them.

Quote:
New indy player experience:
We are glad you want to join our highsec indy corp!
You have elected to create an industry type character. Unlike the overwhelming majority of mmos where social corp/guild features come standard, you need to use one of your character slots to circumvent unbalanced game mechanics in order to use these corporate features. Just let me know the name of the new character you create!

Sigh... a QoL change for indy corps would be nice.
The reason that the mechanics seem unbalanced is because people aren't willing to put in any effort or use any of the many tools and mechanics that are universally available to make that QoL change for themselves.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2016-12-11 23:32:58 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Actually you're wrong, indirectly everybody requires miners, just as everybody indirectly needs combat pilots; Eve isn't just a PvP game, it's a PvP ecosystem.


That is great...I love that and will use that phrase from now on.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2016-12-11 23:47:26 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Quote:
TLDR;
A newish combat corp does not require miners.
A newish mining corp should not require fighters.
Actually you're wrong, indirectly everybody requires miners, just as everybody indirectly needs combat pilots; Eve isn't just a PvP game, it's a PvP ecosystem.

I disagree.
Miners need combat pilots both directly and indirectly.
Combat pilots do not directly need miners in highsec.

When have you ever needed a miner in highsec? i.e. the pilot, not their goods.


The fact that a combat pilot does not directly need a miner does not invalidate the claim that the game is a PvP ecosystem. That veldspar won't mine itself you know.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#50 - 2016-12-12 01:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Quote:
New indy player experience:
We are glad you want to join our highsec indy corp!
You have elected to create an industry type character. Unlike the overwhelming majority of mmos where social corp/guild features come standard, you need to use one of your character slots to circumvent unbalanced game mechanics in order to use these corporate features. Just let me know the name of the new character you create!

Sigh... a QoL change for indy corps would be nice.
The reason that the mechanics seem unbalanced is because people aren't willing to put in any effort or use any of the many tools and mechanics that are universally available to make that QoL change for themselves.

The reason it seems unbalanced is because it is unbalanced.

You keep talking about leadership being the issue. Ineffective leadership of industry corps is a symptom of the unbalanced mechanic. You can't have a good leader without good communication, and the strategies employed to circumvent the unbalanced system diminish the quality of the indy corp's in-game communication resources. No matter if they decide to circumvent the mechanic or try to work with it, they are at a disadvantage. This is poor and unbalanced design.

At what point would you hold a developer responsible for a poor design or implementation as opposed to blaming the user for not being resourceful enough? "Unbalanced Mechanics" doesnt necessarily mean "Impossible Mechanics"
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#51 - 2016-12-12 02:17:09 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
You keep talking about leadership being the issue. Ineffective leadership of industry corps is a symptom of the unbalanced mechanic.

Mechanics don't make people effective or ineffective leaders. Knowledge and experience does.

Mechanics are simply arbitrary rules and regulations that decide how things behave.(much in the same way there are rules for how cars should operate and how they should be driven... but mechanics won't stop people from using things as they see fit).


If you know how the mechanics work, have the experience to use them to your advantage, and lead people in that same direction... that makes you an effective leader.

A person who wants the mechanics changed to give them more of an advantage (or reduce any disadvantage) is not an effective leader.

chaosgrimm wrote:
You can't have a good leader without good communication,

... which does not have anything to do with in-game mechanics in any way, shape, or form.

Use any of the plethora of audio programs out there to communicate.
Ventrilo
Teamspeak
Mumble

Hell... even EVE Audio works in a pinch if you group everyone in the same chat channel (which does not require a corporation to make).

chaosgrimm wrote:
and the strategies employed to circumvent the unbalanced system diminish the quality of the indy corp's in-game communication resources. No matter if they decide to circumvent the mechanic or try to work with it, they are at a disadvantage.

In what way? I have already pointed out that you do not need to be in a corporation to communicate with people.

And by extension, you do not need to be a corporation to organize people. "Organization" is a social abstraction that exists outside of the game itself.

No... the issue is a human one. Not a mechanical one.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#52 - 2016-12-12 03:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
ShahFluffers wrote:

chaosgrimm wrote:
and the strategies employed to circumvent the unbalanced system diminish the quality of the indy corp's in-game communication resources. No matter if they decide to circumvent the mechanic or try to work with it, they are at a disadvantage.

In what way? I have already pointed out that you do not need to be in a corporation to communicate with people.

And by extension, you do not need to be a corporation to organize people. "Organization" is a social abstraction that exists outside of the game itself.

No... the issue is a human one. Not a mechanical one.


I have already pointed out that if you circumvent the in-game mechanic, your in-game corp communications are limited. No one is saying that communication is not possible, but lack of in-game corp communication for a type of profession is unbalanced. If there is no advantage to corporate communications, why not scrap in-game corp communication altogether so that neither combat nor industry pilots have the option? If there is an advantage, why shouldn't highsec indy corps be allowed to benefit from it?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#53 - 2016-12-12 05:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
chaosgrimm wrote:
I have already pointed out that if you circumvent the in-game mechanic, your in-game corp communications are limited.

In what way?

You can create your own player made chat channel (the same as any other player can).
You can use EVE-audio in said chat channel or use an out-of-game audio program.

The only thing you will not have if you are not in a player corporation (in terms of communication abilities) is the default forum created here.

But then again... it is free or really cheap to create your own forum on a 3rd party site. And, in fact, quite advisable to do so anyways since if EVE crashes, the forum here tends to do so as well.

chaosgrimm wrote:
If there is no advantage to corporate communications, why not scrap in-game corp communication altogether so that neither combat nor industry pilots have the option? If there is an advantage, why shouldn't highsec indy corps be allowed to benefit from it?

Because, in a sense, a player-made chat channel for an invited group of people is exactly the same as the default corporation chat channel.

The ONLY difference between the two is the "official" nature of it. That is it.

No... seriously... that is literally it.


An Industrial corporation has the SAME communication options as any PvP corp does.


edit: I should also add that PvP organizations (and especially large corporations) tend to rely heavily on player-made chat channels and 3rd party audio. The reason for this?
There are different groups of people within the corporation that want to do different things and/or different people have different levels of trust.

In my experience, the only time you will find the majority of a PvP corporation on the same chat / audio channel is when there is a major meeting or a fleet operation.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2016-12-12 05:27:03 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Quote:
New indy player experience:
We are glad you want to join our highsec indy corp!
You have elected to create an industry type character. Unlike the overwhelming majority of mmos where social corp/guild features come standard, you need to use one of your character slots to circumvent unbalanced game mechanics in order to use these corporate features. Just let me know the name of the new character you create!

Sigh... a QoL change for indy corps would be nice.
The reason that the mechanics seem unbalanced is because people aren't willing to put in any effort or use any of the many tools and mechanics that are universally available to make that QoL change for themselves.

The reason it seems unbalanced is because it is unbalanced.

You keep talking about leadership being the issue. Ineffective leadership of industry corps is a symptom of the unbalanced mechanic. You can't have a good leader without good communication, and the strategies employed to circumvent the unbalanced system diminish the quality of the indy corp's in-game communication resources. No matter if they decide to circumvent the mechanic or try to work with it, they are at a disadvantage. This is poor and unbalanced design.

At what point would you hold a developer responsible for a poor design or implementation as opposed to blaming the user for not being resourceful enough? "Unbalanced Mechanics" doesnt necessarily mean "Impossible Mechanics"


Good leadership is good leadership. Why is it so hard to make sure there is a way to keep corp members informed? Why is it so hard to set up voice comms, get a some sort of forums or the like? When a war dec comes along people should start working together to ensure that they are all on on the same page.

Have a war dec system set up--i.e. a system everyone can go to that is out of the way where stuff can still be done. And you really only need 1 OOC alt to keep things going. If you have 10 people in corp you have 30 slots for characters and only 1 needs to an OOC hauler who can take stuff to market for people, and bring back stuff they need to keep doing whatever it is they are doing.

Is it completely unreasonable to have people skilling up for certain ships. You want an industry corp...fine, why isn't everyone training for the procuror/skiff? Why not working drone skills. And are logistics ships completely being ignored by corp members....if so, kick their asses to the curb. That way when the war targets show up and you have a battle ball of 10 procurors/skiffs with 5 logistics ships chances are they'll be bunking off to find a softer and easier target. Get some tackle in there and they'll be leaving a few men down.

Yeah, paying a corporate tax sucks...unless it is for an SRP due to wars and losses. And if you have 10 guys in cheap fits yet still with decent dps you may quite possibly chase those war targets into station.

When I was in HS industry corps and had alts in those corps the problem was it was like herding cats. Everyone wanted to do their own thing and screw everyone else including the CEO who tried to provide some order, rules, and guidance. Those players are the problem. Get rid of them. When a war comes you have to put on your big boy pants. Those players who aren't on the same page...they are the problem. Literally kick them out.

Set up some caches of those cheap ships around HS. Have people install jump clones at those stations. When the **** hits the fan you have some pre-determined rally points where you can get a fleet up and running and go out and take the fight to them vs. just sitting there waiting to be a victim.

And why not look for allies? The wardeccers will dec dozens of corps and alliances. Contact them, see if any of them want to work with you. You can set up shared chat channels, voice comms, and work on fleet doctrines, determine who will be the FCs, etc. That is what happened with one of the industry corps my alts were in back in the day. We teamed up with another corporation and we repeatedly chased them back into station until they dropped both war decs because spinning ships sucks...and with us sitting outside station they couldn't even go after the other war targets they had. We literally ruined ALL their fun.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2016-12-12 05:34:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
chaosgrimm wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

chaosgrimm wrote:
and the strategies employed to circumvent the unbalanced system diminish the quality of the indy corp's in-game communication resources. No matter if they decide to circumvent the mechanic or try to work with it, they are at a disadvantage.

In what way? I have already pointed out that you do not need to be in a corporation to communicate with people.

And by extension, you do not need to be a corporation to organize people. "Organization" is a social abstraction that exists outside of the game itself.

No... the issue is a human one. Not a mechanical one.


I have already pointed out that if you circumvent the in-game mechanic, your in-game corp communications are limited. No one is saying that communication is not possible, but lack of in-game corp communication for a type of profession is unbalanced. If there is no advantage to corporate communications, why not scrap in-game corp communication altogether so that neither combat nor industry pilots have the option? If there is an advantage, why shouldn't highsec indy corps be allowed to benefit from it?


You are just...well...wrong here.

If you cannot find OOG ways to communicate....well, how about you just uninstall the game?

There are so many ways to keep in contact with other players. I have been able to keep in contact with people even while at work. How? We use slack and you can download a mobile version of slack for your phone. So even when at work I can see what is going on in corp/alliance/etc.

There are other forms of communication as well. Hell, even skype would probably work in a pinch.

And as Shah Fluffers has noted you can create in game chat channels. I have belonged to a number of such channels for years so I can stay in touch with people not in my alliance/corp.

Take some damn initiative instead of whining to CCP for them to do something you have had the power to do all along.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#56 - 2016-12-12 05:38:16 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:


The ONLY difference between the two is the "official" nature of it. That is it.

No... seriously... that is literally it.

Live chat is not the only form of communication you can do with a corp. There is also corp mail, calendar, and corporate standings and even contracting to some extent.

Why are you so against indy folks being able to use corporations?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2016-12-12 05:40:52 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:


The ONLY difference between the two is the "official" nature of it. That is it.

No... seriously... that is literally it.

Live chat is not the only form of communication you can do with a corp. There is also corp mail, calendar, and corporate standings and even contracting to some extent.

Why are you so against indy folks being able to use corporations?


Shocked

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#58 - 2016-12-12 05:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
chaosgrimm wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:


The ONLY difference between the two is the "official" nature of it. That is it.

No... seriously... that is literally it.

Live chat is not the only form of communication you can do with a corp. There is also corp mail, calendar, and corporate standings and even contracting to some extent.

Corp Mail > Mailing Lists
Calendar > Appoint a person to send an in-game mail via the mailing list system to remind everyone
Corporate Standings > Perk of being in a corporation, but you can also have everyone take responsibility and do it on their own lists. Just send a mail out
Corporate Contracting > Perk of being in a corporation. Not part of communication.

edit: I should also mention that PvP corporations already do most of the above.

They have mailing lists for "trusted members" and/or to the leadership of outside corporations / alliances that they are friendly with.
They tend to have someone that sets the calendar and/or sends out mails to everyone on critical information and operations (and they also post such stuff on the "member only" 3rd party corporation / alliance forums).
They send out a list of "allies" and "blacklisted" players / corporations to everyone in case the Corporate Standings thingy is bugged (as it tends to be).

chaosgrimm wrote:
Why are you so against indy folks being able to use corporations?

Seriously?


Just as people in a PvP corporation have to learn how to make money, do industry, buy stuff, move stuff, etc to make it function on a basic level... PvE and Indy players in corps need to learn how to survive and defend against threats to themselves and the corporation.

It goes both ways.

The problem is that the latter group don't bother with learning how to defend themselves. And they complain that they have to.
(Note: I hate how I have to perform industry, PvE, and logistics just so I can blow people up... but I learned to do it efficiently because it gets me to the playstyle I prefer... and that is what keeps me playing this game. It is the multi-faceted nature of it. Everyone is related to everything else and you cannot isolate one part from the other)



The issue you are describing is a player one. Not a mechanical one.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#59 - 2016-12-12 06:04:23 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:


The ONLY difference between the two is the "official" nature of it. That is it.

No... seriously... that is literally it.

Live chat is not the only form of communication you can do with a corp. There is also corp mail, calendar, and corporate standings and even contracting to some extent.

Why are you so against indy folks being able to use corporations?
I am not sure why of all the things wrong with wars and corporations, you are fixated on a few, dispensable, in-game communication methods. The in-game calendar doesn't win wars, or even make a successful industry corporation.

If you want to argue for more social tools for players not looking to seriously play the game, then I support you. Social corps or the 'societies' proposal seem reasonable ideas for non-competitive players to benefit socially from the game. But using access to a chat channel or calendar as an argument why industrial corporations should be immune from wars is inane.

Industry corporations are not suppose to exists. Ok, this is a sandbox and you can do whatever you want, but there is no in-game mechanic to declare your corporation as "industrial" and thus opt-out of wars. All corporations are competitive, in fact they are the basic competitive unit of the game. You are intended to be vulnerable and have to plan for your defense, just like the "purely PvP" corporation (also which is not explicitly provided for by the rules) has to worry about funding themselves somehow, whether that be missioning, mining, or as mercenary group.

If you want to benefit from the shared economy that gives value to your industry, you have to navigate being vulnerable to the other players who want to compete with you or consume you as content. That's the game. No one promised you a carebear paradise, single-player experience where you can grind resources without risk. Eve Online is a virtual world where everyone is competing against everyone on multiple levels simultaneously.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#60 - 2016-12-12 06:09:51 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:


The ONLY difference between the two is the "official" nature of it. That is it.

No... seriously... that is literally it.

Live chat is not the only form of communication you can do with a corp. There is also corp mail, calendar, and corporate standings and even contracting to some extent.

Why are you so against indy folks being able to use corporations?


he isn't, in fact he is one of the few people who gives honest and best advice to newbros in how to survive and enjoy this game.

and i agree with him, leadership is what makes a corp., no amount of mechanics can save your corp if your leaders are dumb.

Just Add Water