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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

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Tiirz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#621 - 2016-10-19 19:10:37 UTC
Setsuko Shintaro wrote:
Tiirz wrote:
Does anyone know when CCP is going to be releasing info on gas reactions?


I do have to ask, if you barely make above fuel cost, why bother doing it?


1. Overall T3 profit margin is worth it and I like to keep my whole chain in house

2. I run a corpoeation, and we buyback everything. Alot of my fuys gas mine in tgere down time. I buy about 2+million m3 worth if gas a month. Reacting decreases tge size by alot, making it much easier for me to move and desl with.
frightning
Griffin Capsuleers
Ad-Astra
#622 - 2016-10-19 20:34:29 UTC
I may have missed the confirmation but when are Small Engineering Arrays & Small Citadels being released?
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#623 - 2016-10-19 21:06:19 UTC
frightning wrote:
I may have missed the confirmation but when are Small Engineering Arrays & Small Citadels being released?



there are no smalls.. ccp couldn't deliver so they went with M,L,XL .. this is all you get.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#624 - 2016-10-19 21:26:58 UTC
id like to add a few missing notes. since ccp for certain reasons are not bringing it up at all

1) when will the structures BPO hull be seeded?
2) how come there wasn't an announcement of how much those bpo's would cost ahead of time just like you did for citadels?
3) how come you're not allowing those bpo's proper researching times? you gave us a window to research them up so what gives?
4) how come you haven't and or not announcing the prices of the standup manufacturing, researching, invention service mods?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#625 - 2016-10-19 21:39:39 UTC
frightning wrote:
I may have missed the confirmation but when are Small Engineering Arrays & Small Citadels being released?


There are no "small citadels". Small deployables are things like MTUs, mobile depots, &c. Citadels start at medium size and up.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#626 - 2016-10-19 22:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Urziel99
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
id like to add a few missing notes. since ccp for certain reasons are not bringing it up at all

1) when will the structures BPO hull be seeded?
2) how come there wasn't an announcement of how much those bpo's would cost ahead of time just like you did for citadels?
3) how come you're not allowing those bpo's proper researching times? you gave us a window to research them up so what gives?
4) how come you haven't and or not announcing the prices of the standup manufacturing, researching, invention service mods?





A few of the details still appear to be in flux. For example the research service modules currently use 5 blocks per hour instead of 20 and the rigs haven't been seeded yet. Hard to price things on TQ when the fine details aren't ironed out.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#627 - 2016-10-19 22:41:49 UTC
M'kay...so I know test server and whatnot = not final numbers!

But the Devblog said that Research Lab will need 20 blocks/hr and on the test server it says 5 blocks/hr.

This is a good change towards non-ridiculous fuel requirements needed for service modules!

I'm hoping the numbers for the rest will be reconsidered in the near future aswell.

Mainly how the Manufacturing Plant uses 20 blocks/hr but the Capital Shipyard uses 10 blocks/hr.
Viktor Archangel
Joe's Saloon
M A R A K U G A
#628 - 2016-10-20 09:25:36 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Altrue wrote:
A bit sad over the higher vulnerability timers and the retaining of the system cost manufacturing index, but I understand why both of these aspects are necessary.

What of the ability to use a Market Service Module? Is it limited to L and XL or only for XL?


I expect that the market service module can only be fit to Fortizars, Keepstars, and the Palatine Keepstar. Not the engineering complexes. It would seem counter-design to allow a manufacturing structure to provide the market services of a Citadel. Same, I would expect, for clone services.


But it did say citadels can manufacture/equip indy rigs.

Maybe players should just ignore getting the complexes as CCP intends.
Kinizsi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#629 - 2016-10-20 12:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinizsi
Mai Khumm wrote:
M'kay...so I know test server and whatnot = not final numbers!

But the Devblog said that Research Lab will need 20 blocks/hr and on the test server it says 5 blocks/hr.

This is a good change towards non-ridiculous fuel requirements needed for service modules!

I'm hoping the numbers for the rest will be reconsidered in the near future aswell.

Mainly how the Manufacturing Plant uses 20 blocks/hr but the Capital Shipyard uses 10 blocks/hr.



I don't know why you are so scared of the fuel requirements???


60% of the price of the fuel bloc comes from ICE, with the Rorqual changes, ice products price would freefall like a stone tossed out from an aeroplane..... so the fuel blocks price would allso drop fast. Don't be that much scared, and don't count the fuel need on today prices.

You are talking about capital building shipyards...... building capitals aren't a cheap thing, tax them, and your fuel cost is secured anyway.
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#630 - 2016-10-20 12:39:47 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
M'kay...so I know test server and whatnot = not final numbers!

But the Devblog said that Research Lab will need 20 blocks/hr and on the test server it says 5 blocks/hr.

This is a good change towards non-ridiculous fuel requirements needed for service modules!

I'm hoping the numbers for the rest will be reconsidered in the near future aswell.

Mainly how the Manufacturing Plant uses 20 blocks/hr but the Capital Shipyard uses 10 blocks/hr.


um just so you know the capital shipyard can ONLY build capital ships, and that dosent includ capital parts. you still need the manufacturing plant in order to make the capital parts to build the capital ships. this means that the capital shipyard is nothing more than an expansion for the basic manufacturing plant. wich is why it only costs 10 blocks instead of costing a mad amount of fuel on top of the regular manufacturing plant.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#631 - 2016-10-20 13:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Kinizsi wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
M'kay...so I know test server and whatnot = not final numbers!

But the Devblog said that Research Lab will need 20 blocks/hr and on the test server it says 5 blocks/hr.

This is a good change towards non-ridiculous fuel requirements needed for service modules!

I'm hoping the numbers for the rest will be reconsidered in the near future aswell.

Mainly how the Manufacturing Plant uses 20 blocks/hr but the Capital Shipyard uses 10 blocks/hr.



I don't know why you are so scared of the fuel requirements???


60% of the price of the fuel bloc comes from ICE, with the Rorqual changes, ice products price would freefall like a stone tossed out from an aeroplane..... so the fuel blocks price would allso drop fast. Don't be that much scared, and don't count the fuel need on today prices.

You are talking about capital building shipyards...... building capitals aren't a cheap thing, tax them, and your fuel cost is secured anyway.


I'm looking at it from a POS to Structure viewpoint. Currently, and for the immediate future, to run a small POS with various equipment for manufacturing/research/refining etc etc, costs 10 blocks/hr. And you only need 1 POS. With the Rigs as they are right now, 1 structure can be used to efficiently do one task. At a much greater initial cost! The only benefit right now between POSs and Structures is that you can turns things on/off without the bubble going down and opening yourself up for attack.

That would make sense if ICE was limitless like the good old days. Seeing how they function like a regular belt and deplete for the past fer years, the only real change is the ability to mine it faster. Which might net you 1 more spawn/day. The prices won't tank either if the fuel required triples.

-edit-

Small POS uses 10 blocks/hr @ ~21,000 ISK/block, so that's 210,000 ISK/hr (5 Mil/day, 1.8 Bil/yr)
Which can be used to do a little bit of everything at once!

A Citadel with Refining and Manufacturing only uses 23.75 blocks/hr @ ~21,000 ISK/block, so that's 498,000 ISK/hr (12 Mil/day, 4.25 Bil/yr.
Which can efficiently be used to do one thing, and one thing only. That's if Rigs stay as they are! Compound that for each Structure used for each thing (efficiently)

I'd REALLY hate to be a logistics guy, especially in WH space!
Kinizsi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#632 - 2016-10-20 13:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinizsi
I think you are missing a key point.

Citadel services go offline if they are not fuelled, but the structure still protects all your asset, not just invul timers but with the asset safety mechanism.

If you don't use a service, you don't fuel it. You don't need to fuel the service only if you are building something, not 24/7 regardless of it's usage. So if you are not in building something, you let the fuel run out, or just grab the fuel from the fuel bay, and turn it offline stopping all fuel consumption, but still protecting your stuff.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#633 - 2016-10-20 13:23:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Kinizsi wrote:
I think you are missing a key point.

Citadel services go offline if they are not fuelled, but the structure still protects all your asset, not just invul timers but with the asset safety mechanism.

If you don't use a service, you don't fuel it. You don't need to fuel the service only if you are building something, not 24/7 regardless of it's usage. So if you are not in building something, you let the fuel run out, or just grab the fuel from the fuel bay, and turn it offline stopping all fuel consumption, but still protecting your stuff.

My reply to you, first paragraph, last sentence..

Mai Khumm wrote:
The only benefit right now between POSs and Structures is that you can turns things on/off without the bubble going down and opening yourself up for attack.


-edit-

You do know how long build times are for stuff, right?

You do know how much **** you have to build to turn a profit at the end of the day, right?

...and this is one structure, building one product type. Double your costs if you build more then one product type.

Be it, drones, small ships, medium ships, large ships, modules, rigs... If you build more then one of those, your fuel required doubles for each one.
Kinizsi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#634 - 2016-10-20 13:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinizsi
One thing is sure, people would specialize in products, what worth. When market trends change, they build another EC for the different type of stuff, and so on..... and when they are not in use, they don't need fuel.

You do not have to maintain the EC, there will be freeports. specialized for different product types, and rigged for max efficiency.
People might realize that they shouldn't solo build, and cooperation would benefit them more than triing to solo everything. Sharing maintenance can be pretty profitable if you find good partners noone said that you should solo fuel your EC.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#635 - 2016-10-20 14:00:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Freeports are only a good idea in Highsec because of how hard it is to remove one. A Manufacturing Freeport is beyond stupid anywhere else, especially if it's a EC, simply because of the large Vulnerability window and lack of defensive capabilities.

Freeports in Highsec are very risky, because if I dump a few Billion worth of blueprints, materials and ships, nothing stops the owner from turning off modules AND turn the Structure private...thus locking all assets inside!

Now then, people will have to spend more time moving things around, I might mine and refine in system "X" build frigates 5 jumps away in system "Y" and build modules in system "Z" another 8 jumps away. Then I have to co-ordinate all that to a central trading hub. Which is a logistical pain in the ass! (and increasing your chance of a suicide gank) Which I actually currently do, in one place, in one POS, efficiently and logistically sound! (and I can specialize in several things at once!)
Kinizsi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#636 - 2016-10-20 14:10:49 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Freeports are only a good idea in Highsec because of how hard it is to remove one. A Manufacturing Freeport is beyond stupid anywhere else, especially if it's a EC, simply because of the large Vulnerability window and lack of defensive capabilities.

Freeports in Highsec are very risky, because if I dump a few Billion worth of blueprints, materials and ships, nothing stops the owner from turning off modules AND turn the Structure private...thus locking all assets inside!

Now then, people will have to spend more time moving things around, I might mine and refine in system "X" build frigates 5 jumps away in system "Y" and build modules in system "Z" another 8 jumps away. Then I have to co-ordinate all that to a central trading hub. Which is a logistical pain in the ass! (and increasing your chance of a suicide gank) Which I actually currently do, in one place, in one POS, efficiently and logistically sound! (and I can specialize in several things at once!)



Or you join up a corp/alliance what has built all in one place, and has the power to defend those assets. They would surely not close you out from the alliance citadels or EC.........don't think in small, the community would solve all those problems and after the POS's phase out you'd allso find the way for making it worth.
I foresee high sec manufacture cartells with good reputation, who don't close you out from their citadels. But if they do, you hire mercs to kill the citadel, freeing your stuff by asset safety.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#637 - 2016-10-20 14:18:35 UTC
Yeah, but you have players who actually prefer a solo life, for one reason or another. Highsec will never change the way it operates, for the same reason why most people there refuse to leave it!

Basically telling people to play a different way then you like is on par with joining ANY Nullsec group.

...also, look at the cost of hiring a competent...COMPETENT Merc group. I'll wait whilst you go a look that up.

Also, factor in time lost to having your assets locked away for a week.
Kinizsi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#638 - 2016-10-20 14:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinizsi
Mai Khumm wrote:
Yeah, but you have players who actually prefer a solo life, for one reason or another. Highsec will never change the way it operates, for the same reason why most people there refuse to leave it!

Basically telling people to play a different way then you like is on par with joining ANY Nullsec group.

...also, look at the cost of hiring a competent...COMPETENT Merc group. I'll wait whilst you go a look that up.

Also, factor in time lost to having your assets locked away for a week.



You can manufacture on NPC stations, that thing is free.

Nowdays you don't see enough competent merc groups, cause there are only a few types of jobs they can do.(allthough I know a fistfull of fins who can do anything for cheap)

But when it would become a thing to remove EC's in a mass cause there is a need for it, many would rise, and probably many would become competent. The more merc groups rise, it would become more and more cheaper.

Using 3rd party services you can be sure that you pay for succes.
Many things would rise from this EC-Citadel concept many sandbox activity....you have to as allways adapt to the new things.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#639 - 2016-10-20 14:37:14 UTC
If NPC stations were worth it, then you wouldn't find any manufacturing and/or researching POSs in Highsec...ever!
YeuxVerts Belle
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#640 - 2016-10-20 14:44:04 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
If NPC stations were worth it, then you wouldn't find any manufacturing and/or researching POSs in Highsec...ever!


Yet you find systems like Jita with 0 POS and surprisingly high manufacturing and research indexes.

NPC stations are worth it. They compete. They offer edges and hindrances, just like POS and ECs.

The above message presents my opinions on the topic at hand. If there is a conflict between my views and reality, consider reality to be correct until proven otherwise.