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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1441 - 2016-10-15 21:04:28 UTC
Pestilen Ratte wrote:

For a start, we can say for certain that FTP characters will have either a good time, or not.

If they don't, they will leave, and it will have been a pointless exercise.

If they do have a good time...... what is the point of paying a subscription? Why not have good time in Eve for free?

Therefore, CCP have to ensure that the FTP experience is not sufficiently fun to attract this subscribers, and yet somehow sufficiently fun to attract new players.


You seem to be thinking of these players as if they were one player. That is a critical methodological flaw. It is more accurate to say:

Some will not have fun and will leave.
Some will have fun and stay.
Some will have fun and switch over to Omega status.

So long as we get people in the last 3 categories that is good for the game in that it means more people to interact with.

Pestilen Ratte wrote:

I hate to say it, but this seems like bare faced nonsense dressed up as a good idea.

Sooner or later, CCP is going to have to move away from a subscription model and towards alternate sources of revenue. The numbers are dying off fast, there is a lot of competition in the space pew sector, and the numbers are dying off fast. And the numbers are dying off fast.


Does repeating something make it even more true. Yes numbers online is a problem, hence this move. Think of it as an unlimited trial. I can appeal to people who just do not have lots of free time to log in regularly, but still want to play. Also, it lets people learn about the game over a longer period thus, giving them more time to figure things out and if they want to start a paying sub.

Somehow the bill has to be paid, and granting FTP for everyone does not remove that condition. In fact, it will make monetizing the player base even more critical which will almost sure mean things like PTW. And that will likely annoy the remaining player base and be very bad.

Pestilen Ratte wrote:

Don't get me wrong, CCP impress the heck out of me with their business model. They have had a good run.

There are other streams of revenue that could be harnessed, but it would mean a cultural and structural change in the way CCP opera as a firm. It means ending the pay-to-win mechanics which currently define the game and seriously limit game play development. If players don't pay, how can they pay to win?


Exactly what other revenue streams do you see if not pay-to-win or paid subs? And there is no pay-to-win in the game. There are pay-to-avoid-griniding, pay-to-skip-training-time, etc. but these have been in game for a very, very long time in one form or another, and they had the salutory effect of under-mining RMT.

And effecting a change in corporate culture is no easy task. In fact, I would suggest that such attempts probably fail.


Pestilen Ratte wrote:

I think this change in the fundamental mechanics, away from pay-to-win drivers, will allow Eve to blossom as a proper action game, a contest between players on equal footing. I'm optimistic.


This is anti-thetical to the very idea of the game--i.e. a sand box that promotes emergence, spontaneous order, and so forth. The idea of "equal footing" only applies in the sense that each player starts out capable of forging his own path in the game. That for different individuals there will be different paths.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Annir Janau
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1442 - 2016-10-16 13:34:17 UTC
'on an existing Omega account'
'Omega account slots'

[insert facepalm meme here]
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1443 - 2016-10-16 14:49:33 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Welisa Aldent wrote:
Pls CCP High sec in eve dosent need more gankers pls do so they Always need to fly in green safty mode..becouse ganking gona get out of hand, even more then it have now.

And btw what do we get? we the subs..so far its only the freeloaders that benefit from this..

I still get to pay and dosent get anything extra,sounds like a cheezy deal for us subs


Try not paying and see what you get.

No, we probably don't need more gankers, but the problem is there is not much else in the way of HS PvP that involves shooting people.

I wonder if putting some effort into the lack lustre wardec system we have might not be the answer to highsec pvp opportunities. It is about time something was done to better encourage highsec wars.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1444 - 2016-10-16 15:15:39 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Try reading the minutes, it sounds like CCP are going to be limiting them to 1 free account per person, so they aren't going to be significantly used for ganking, as the set up to avoid detection is likely to cost far more to maintain than actually paying for a few ganking accounts.
additionally isk selling in EVE is combated via Plex, and has been effectively for quite some time. Subscription only games without a plex equivalent have always been hit by gold sellers hard, the plex gives people a legal outlet for it and most people being risk averse don't gamble on avoiding detection when there is a legal means.

You don't really believe isk selling doesn't happen do you?

Plex, even when on special are expensive. Some people will always look for alternatives..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1445 - 2016-10-18 11:10:30 UTC
Question regarding 2nd and 3rd Character training. Will we be able to train them as Alpha Clones while our 'main' trains as an Omega?

For example, I'm subscribed on this account, but aren't paying for dual training. I want a scout on the second character slot, which only needs alpha skills. Do I have to stop training on Major Trant, to train alpha clone skills on the 2nd char?

That would actually be a barrier in my view and be detrimental to CCPs income. Because if not, the best way of doing this, would be to let my subscription lapse, then train the second char for a month or so for free and not re-sub until I want to go back to training Trant's skills. But of course I won't be able to login and play on Trant during that period (properly). So I'd perhaps drop corp during that period or go and play World of Tanks or something, all bad for Eve. But nobody is going to be happy paying for a Skill queue to train free skills.

Additionally what's to stop everyone and his dog opening up multiple Alpha Clone accounts, training them to max SP point and then flogging them on the Character Bazaar? There is going to be so many people doing this that the price of a 5M SP char will stabalise at around the cost of a Plex to pay for the transfer fee. It will quickly become the norm to start your Eve career by buying one of these pre-trained Alpha Clones.

You have made a set of rods for your own backs CCP - surely a better and much simpler way of doing this would be to give all new chars the 5M SP from the off and then just disable the Skill Queue while they are Alpha clones.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1446 - 2016-10-18 12:10:32 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
Question regarding 2nd and 3rd Character training. Will we be able to train them as Alpha Clones while our 'main' trains as an Omega?

For example, I'm subscribed on this account, but aren't paying for dual training. I want a scout on the second character slot, which only needs alpha skills. Do I have to stop training on Major Trant, to train alpha clone skills on the 2nd char?

That would actually be a barrier in my view and be detrimental to CCPs income. Because if not, the best way of doing this, would be to let my subscription lapse, then train the second char for a month or so for free and not re-sub until I want to go back to training Trant's skills. But of course I won't be able to login and play on Trant during that period (properly). So I'd perhaps drop corp during that period or go and play World of Tanks or something, all bad for Eve. But nobody is going to be happy paying for a Skill queue to train free skills.

Additionally what's to stop everyone and his dog opening up multiple Alpha Clone accounts, training them to max SP point and then flogging them on the Character Bazaar? There is going to be so many people doing this that the price of a 5M SP char will stabalise at around the cost of a Plex to pay for the transfer fee. It will quickly become the norm to start your Eve career by buying one of these pre-trained Alpha Clones.

You have made a set of rods for your own backs CCP - surely a better and much simpler way of doing this would be to give all new chars the 5M SP from the off and then just disable the Skill Queue while they are Alpha clones.

Do people not read the blogs or even browse threads to see if something has already been asked and answered.

Again; There is no possible way to train an Alpha clone on an Omega account - It is an omega account, not an Omega character.

Also, you can only train ONE character per account without buying a dual character training certificate. So - Yes would would have to stop training your main to train another character, on top of this, if you want to train it as an Alpha clone, you need to let your account expire.

Although, you can stop your main training and train Alpha only skills on your subbed account if you choose but as long as it is a subbed account, it will not be an Alpha clone.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1447 - 2016-10-18 15:24:06 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:


Again; There is no possible way to train an Alpha clone on an Omega account - It is an omega account, not an Omega character.--emphasis added


Pretty much this, this has been pointed out pretty much 2 dozen times, stop asking about it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#1448 - 2016-10-20 09:33:31 UTC
I read the blog and its depressing....also I see lots of people now having ganker alts

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1449 - 2016-10-20 17:00:59 UTC
Agondray wrote:
I read the blog and its depressing....also I see lots of people now having ganker alts


In which case CCP would lock safeties to green, at least in HS.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1450 - 2016-10-20 18:34:25 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Welisa Aldent wrote:
Pls CCP High sec in eve dosent need more gankers pls do so they Always need to fly in green safty mode..becouse ganking gona get out of hand, even more then it have now.

And btw what do we get? we the subs..so far its only the freeloaders that benefit from this..

I still get to pay and dosent get anything extra,sounds like a cheezy deal for us subs


Try not paying and see what you get.

No, we probably don't need more gankers, but the problem is there is not much else in the way of HS PvP that involves shooting people.

I wonder if putting some effort into the lack lustre wardec system we have might not be the answer to highsec pvp opportunities. It is about time something was done to better encourage highsec wars.
Functionally wardecs work fine. The only issue with them is the lack of reason to defend other than wanting the fight itself. No instance of wardec mechanics has ever addressed that.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1451 - 2016-10-20 18:40:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Agondray wrote:
I read the blog and its depressing....also I see lots of people now having ganker alts


In which case CCP would lock safeties to green, at least in HS.
I genuinely wonder if that's going to be an issue now. No (EULA abiding) multiboxing. No T2 weapons or mods. No Talos usage for big targets. Catalyst are still a potent tool even capped by mod/skill restrictions, but they can't be spammed by single players so it's likely not going to be an issue.

Unless there's something/someone routing alphas from genuine new players to organized ganking in large numbers. I'm not sure that's a likely outcome though.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1452 - 2016-10-20 18:43:12 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Welisa Aldent wrote:
Pls CCP High sec in eve dosent need more gankers pls do so they Always need to fly in green safty mode..becouse ganking gona get out of hand, even more then it have now.

And btw what do we get? we the subs..so far its only the freeloaders that benefit from this..

I still get to pay and dosent get anything extra,sounds like a cheezy deal for us subs


Try not paying and see what you get.

No, we probably don't need more gankers, but the problem is there is not much else in the way of HS PvP that involves shooting people.

I wonder if putting some effort into the lack lustre wardec system we have might not be the answer to highsec pvp opportunities. It is about time something was done to better encourage highsec wars.
Functionally wardecs work fine. The only issue with them is the lack of reason to defend other than wanting the fight itself. No instance of wardec mechanics has ever addressed that.


Nor can it, IMO. Wanting to PvP is more of a behavioral issue than one of mechanics. Somewhere Malcanis provided a thought experiment on this and when you read it and think about it one quickly realizes that if one simple does not like to PvP then no amount of tinkering with the mechanics would change that. Should have bookmarked that post.....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1453 - 2016-10-20 21:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Functionally wardecs work fine. The only issue with them is the lack of reason to defend other than wanting the fight itself. No instance of wardec mechanics has ever addressed that.

Give EC's equal capabilities in all areas of space, and then you have things that will cause defenders to actually fight over them. But with the current difference in stats based on area of space (Despite the same structure & cost), it's not worth it for nearly anyone in highsec to use them unless you can put the XL up because you are a mega coalition.

Same thing that ties back to high sec not forming meaningful corps for the most part. It has to be tied around structures that give them significant advantages. And the pre nerf to high sec EC's etc means that simply won't happen on a large scale.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1454 - 2016-10-20 21:53:22 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Agondray wrote:
I read the blog and its depressing....also I see lots of people now having ganker alts


In which case CCP would lock safeties to green, at least in HS.
I genuinely wonder if that's going to be an issue now. No (EULA abiding) multiboxing. No T2 weapons or mods. No Talos usage for big targets. Catalyst are still a potent tool even capped by mod/skill restrictions, but they can't be spammed by single players so it's likely not going to be an issue.

Unless there's something/someone routing alphas from genuine new players to organized ganking in large numbers. I'm not sure that's a likely outcome though.



And even if it is...well welcome to emergent play. If you do have 70 man fleets of 70 players running around in T1 fit cats shooting stuff and somebody is providing that organization and backbone...so be it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
DSpite Culhach
#1455 - 2016-10-24 03:20:00 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
Why is Leadership 3 an Alpha clone skill? Since this is supposed to come out at the same time as the boosting changes, an Alpha Clone won't fly any ship that can boost, nor use any skills that require Leadership (like Fighters).



To use Security Connections skill I think.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Shawnee
Vanda Mining
#1456 - 2016-10-24 17:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Shawnee
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
LeHarfang wrote:
Will we be able to multi box an alpha clone alongside an omega clone? You know, like solo mine with the omega and haul with the alpha in a Miasmos?

No. Read the blog & Dev posts.


The Dev Blog states "we are planning to implement restrictions that keep any Alpha account from passing character select if another EVE client is already active. This will be true even if the other client is Omega". But it doesn't say that you can't select an Omega account if an Alpha account is already active. So based on this, it should be possible to simultaneously run one Alpha and as many Omegas as you like, as long as you log in the Alpha first to avoid the restriction. Or have I missed something?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1457 - 2016-10-24 20:52:34 UTC
Shawnee wrote:


The Dev Blog states "we are planning to implement restrictions that keep any Alpha account from passing character select if another EVE client is already active. This will be true even if the other client is Omega". But it doesn't say that you can't select an Omega account if an Alpha account is already active. So based on this, it should be possible to simultaneously run one Alpha and as many Omegas as you like, as long as you log in the Alpha first to avoid the restriction. Or have I missed something?

Assume that won't be possible would be my advice. And that it's just not a perfect phrasing by the Dev blog. But test when it gets released anyway in case of a bug. But it makes no sense to base the restriction on login order. Otherwise why bother restricting it from running if an Omega account is active to begin with. So the obvious intent is if running Alpha, can't run a second account at the same time regardless.
DSpite Culhach
#1458 - 2016-10-27 01:04:04 UTC  |  Edited by: DSpite Culhach
Still reading through the thread (on page 53 atm).

Is there a way that the new Alpha players could be used to "flesh out" the universe more while they make the decision to either remain casual or move to Omega?

They could be introduced into the universe as "new capsuleer immortal citizens" and given tasks by the empire corps - maybe even upgraded clone states - for carrying out tasks for the empire.

Think of it this way:

Instead of just running the current missions, a new mission system is added, like a job board, and players can pick and choose from that list, and rewards could even be given indirectly. For example, actually joining an NPC mining Corp gives access to cheaper hulls, and an upgraded clone state with better mining skills that is lost when they drop that Corp. They could even be allowed to join the Faction Police and be allowed to activate ECM modules on anyone they like in hisec that has a negative sec status :)

I know many here will say "players can get all that with REAL human Corps", but what I am pointing out is that by using this idea it creates a middle way from normal MMO's to EVE, and also allows people that enjoyed THAT kind of game play more to stay here, in EVE, and at least add to population numbers, and provide extra gameplay even for vets in term of targets, and general activity.

With the right mechanics, the system would not be able to be abused, because you would be given assets that could be USED but not SOLD, and benefits that only exist as long as you actively work that account.

Even if Alphas stick to that gameplay alone and never go Omega, it would create a better target environment for everyone involved, if done correctly.

EDITS:

* I would suggest that places like EVE-Offline, that report PCU and server stats, track Alpha logins separately (or at least allow a toggle), so that when we see the massive join spike we can still see what fraction is what.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
DSpite Culhach
#1459 - 2016-10-28 03:29:00 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I know not everything is set in stone and that is the reason for this post.

Based on the skills they gave so far Gallente alphas looks like they will be either more powerful, or much more powerful than all the other alphas.

First there is the issue of drone skills. Gallente and Amarr both have much better drone skills than minmatar or caldari alphas. Caldari and minmatar have gun and missile skills. Which seems balanced unless you play eve. People rarely if ever use both guns and missiles on the same ship. But they almost always use both guns and drones. When you look at a gnosis this means Amarr and Gallente will have about 2xs the dps as caldari or minmatar. This is a huge disparity.

Second is the gallente industrial skill. CCP has not said what will happen with pi. If you have an omega clone set up multiple pi systems what happens when your subscription lapses? CCP has not directly answered this but they have given some vague notions that they may leave them running. If you have ever tried to extract pi skills you know ccp doesn't really have a handle on what pi you have running. Ok so *if* they allow pi to continue to be farmed (or can't prevent it for technical reasons) then the epithal will be a huge benefit for gallente.

I started my characters years ago with the assurance that race didn't matter. The 2 things I mention above matter allot.

What can be done? Lots of things.

Eg.,
1) allow characters to choose the racial skills they want as an alpha. or

2) give all races the same drone bonuses (either the lower ones or the better ones whatever)

3) Don't allow alphas to continue pi set ups that only omegas can start. or

4) if you do then at least let all races have access to the epithal.

There are plenty of other things that can address these problems but I just want to make sure ccp is ahead of the game on this.

edit: feel free to mention in this thread any other race imbalance issues.

2nd edit:
Namaan wrote:

If you're looking for mostly PvP kinda, yeah... Caldari will be the best mission runners (Cal Gnosis does 3s with ease I'm told) and the Hookbill will be a respectable scramkite if Cals want to PvP, but lets be honest Alphas will more about wolf packs, not solo ninjas.


Cal alpha gnosis gets half the dps of a gallente alpha gnosis. The gallente alpha gnosis should be able to do level 4s as it gets about 530 dps.

I don't think the hookbills will all of a sudden start looking better than comets when alphas come out. Start looking at eft for yourself here is a skeleton of a gnosis fit:

[Gnosis, gallente alpha]
AE-K Compact Drone Damage Amplifier
AE-K Compact Drone Damage Amplifier
Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Damage Control II
[empty low slot]

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M


Federation Navy Hammerhead x5


The eft clones skill characters can be found here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=491949&find=unread



The 250mm proto guns and Damage Control 2 currently show up on SISI as "Omega only" weapons.

I need to point out that a Gnosis is a limited numbers type ship. If we assume most Alphas start getting them in bulk, we can also assume they will lose them in bulk, so using Gnosis ships as examples for Alpha is not that good an idea.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1460 - 2016-10-28 03:39:31 UTC
There are somewhere in the region of 2 Million Gnosis. Minus losses this year.
Assuming they never give any more out, zKill says 42,600 approx were lost so far. Even if we double that for non killboarded kills, we haven't put a significant dent in the overall quantity of Gnosis in EVE.
And that's a lifetime kill count since they were introduced.

Eventually they might run out, but for now it's a perfectly reasonable ship to use as an example ship for Alpha clones.