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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Gin Andtonic
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#101 - 2016-08-31 15:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Gin Andtonic
I'm going to add my voice to the general call for limits on simultaneous logins. Let's just go with a one-alpha max. That can be one alpha one its own, or one alpha with some number of omegas, but never more than one alpha logged in simultaneously. That limits what you can do with them by a lot. A freebie non-cloaky scanner to go with whatever you're doing? A semi-afk mining frigate you put in your other monitor? T1 PvP character to burn rifters in Ama? Great, fine. Ten of either? Bad idea. Not that people wouldn't find a way to circumvent any limit on simultaneous logins anyways, but I think that leaving that door open is going to be the only major risk.

Otherwise, I'm generally in favor. Nice way to introduce folks to the game without forcing them to get hooked in a 14-day window. I'd make sure (and I'm pretty sure this is already the case) that alpha accounts can't contract-spam or make decoy corps and wardec people.

Oh, yeah, what happens if a corp leader reverts to alpha? Does the lower corp management skill kick a bunch of people from the corp? How does it affect the alliance?
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2016-08-31 15:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Andre Vauban
I have some MAJOR concerns.

1) Suicide ganking. The biggest obstacle for players is getting enough alpha to take a target down. With this change, it is now within the grasp of a player to launch 20+ alpha clone players in thrashers to gank things.

2) Faction Warfare. It is now possible for a single player to launch a large number of clients to close FW complexes.

3) Scouts. It is now possible for me to put a scout into every system within X jumps of me. Granted you eliminated cloaks, but I can just put them in capsules and I can scale to multiple characters per system so all my eyes won't get podded at the same time. Nobody wants to go probe down a bunch of worthless capsules in space in every system.


I would suggest that all the problems can be fixed by only allowing a single alpha client to log into Eve from a single computer. Most people won't have enough computers (or able to run enough VMs) to really abuse this.

EDIT: After reading other posts, safety should be forced to green in highsec for Alpha's. Otherwise, I as a ganker register 50 alpha accounts. Assuming you limit 1 login at a time, I can get together with 20 friends (who all do the same thing). We can now gank non-stop 24x7 because whenever we get a criminal flag, we can log out and log into a fresh alpha account.

.

Prometheus Hinken
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#103 - 2016-08-31 15:01:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Hinken
I think this is a great idea and fully support it. However, my only concern is Faction Warfare LP farming.

Alpha Clones are limited to the racial combat skills up to Cruiser sized ships and weapons, and it seems like T1/Faction modules. This leaves most farmable content out, such as PI and Mining alts. However, it sounds like Alpha clones can still sign up for Faction Warfare and participate to receive full Loyalty Points. This has much potential to be abused and farmed for free; this would also hurt the LP-to-ISK ecosystem greatly. So what do you do?

Option 1: Restrict Alpha Clones from participating in Faction Warfare. I don't like nor recommend this option. Faction Warfare is a great way for rookie pilots to learn the ropes of combat while still flying relatively cheap ships and to earn money via the LP Rewards.

Option 2: Allow Alpha Clones to fully participate in Faction Warfare; however, change their Loyalty Point gains to a certain percentage of what normal gains are. I recommend this option because it encourages new players to actually venture out to lowsec, join Faction Warfare corporations and alliances, and participate in fleet/solo PvP, and also see the fruits of their labor with LP gains, albeit diminished than their Omega clone counterparts.

Option 3: Allow full participation and loyalty point gain by Alpha Clones. As mentioned above, I believe this would lead to a massive increase of LP which would severely affect the LP ecosystem.

*EDIT - I also believe the other players are correct about only launching one Alpha Clone at a time.
wucas
She asked for it
#104 - 2016-08-31 15:01:52 UTC
Are you planning on changing skill requirements for items so alpha-clones can/can't use them? For example most faction modules currently have lower skill requirements than the respective T2 mod, are you gonna change that?
KhanidLady
White Knight Social Club
Streamfleet
#105 - 2016-08-31 15:01:52 UTC
A friend just suggested: "CCP could disallow turning safety off in highsec for Alphas too, then not much of an issue"
Hilti Enaka
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#106 - 2016-08-31 15:02:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Hilti Enaka
Well ->

more t1 fit Griffin blobs?
more t1 fit alt logi accounts and ewar?
more scammers and spammers

This is stupid.

This feels like a complete screw over to loyal players who paid their dues.

The only advantage I see here is people will use them as throw away alts to satisfy their chest beating, therefore, Alpha clones should be bare minimal and should be locked into NPC corps and have access to certain high sec systems only. They should also not be able to transfer isk, items and anything related to "gaining an edge" over competition.

Please CCP understand the way people game these days and make decisions based on true science and not just because it is a "good idea". This is going to massively impact customer engagement and loyalty because the fear of losing something is so powerful to engagement by doing this you actually do the opposite of trying to create loyal customers, you actually lose engaged people.

Always remember this, when something is free, there is no value.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#107 - 2016-08-31 15:03:03 UTC
Question at the devs on this:

1. If I launch an alpha account, can I launch another one on the same computer?
2. Can I sign up for multiple alpha accounts w/the same email address?
3. If I have an omega account can I launch a single or multiple alpha accounts with it?

These questions will affect how your current player base uses these.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#108 - 2016-08-31 15:03:07 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
I don't think you should be allowing any industry or trade skills on alpha clones, if you value the health of the in game economy.

It's just too easy to exploit and once it is adopted by enough players, it will be just too essential not to exploit.

If limited to PvP and PvE, I don't think I will have any serious problems with this proposal, but if you allow me and others like me to produce unlimited industry alts with no practically enforceable limitations on that, then things will get very bad and very quickly.


I disagree here. The only reason there is inflation in this game is because CCP adjusts the cost and availability of minerals/ship components. Driving down the price of T1 ships and modules would be healthy for a lot of people.

Used to be able to fit a domi for under 80 mil. The hulls are around 200 mil now NOT because of inflation but because of CCP rebalancing.

Let us stop the 'eve economy is real' pitch.

Hi, you appear to have quoted my post but nothing you have said is in any way related to my post. Was this a mistake?
Ryzhik Belka
Free of Taxes
#109 - 2016-08-31 15:03:21 UTC
Swarms of ventures will drive mineral costs to zero.
Pah Cova
Made in Portugal S.A.
#110 - 2016-08-31 15:03:27 UTC
Guess CCP are just tired from this game and wants to end it ASAP.
CCP are not respecting playerbase and are not providing the needed assistance on the numerous bugs they created with this almost monthly updates and i´m not talking about the time the took to answer the tickets (about 3 weeks).
As someone said a few post back, CCP SEAGUL have ruined this game, the decline starts when she assumed the executive direction of this game, I have nothing personally against her, but she´s not the right person to the charge, thats only my oppinion.
Constant socket closed in each account from 10 to 10 minutes one at a time, capacitor not shown the ship cap, api´s not working all the time are just some examples of the bad work that CCP have done and it seems they are not going to be solved in a near future.

Now CCP wants to put more people on game playing in a freemode why?
55.000 players before CCP SEAGUL assumes this game, and 25.000/30.000 players after she assumes this game should mean something and lead CCP into some conclusions.

In other company´s the monthy incoming reduction for bad decisions are not take lightly, but thats in other company´s and it seems CCP dosent need the monthly income and dont want to be reckognize as a successfull gaming devoloper company.



Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2016-08-31 15:04:28 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Will PI set-ups be disabled while on Alpha clones? You can set up two characters with a decent PI set-up in a 30-day paid-for period, so unless planetary colonies are disabled during that time, it's going to be rather overpowered to pay once for a free source of ISK thereafter.


I never thought about that. Pay for an account for 90 -sih days to train all three characters, and then make free money forever.

PI skills are not included in the alpha list in the devblog.


In retrospect, I see your point. You could create one colony, but it wouldn't generate much at all because you'd lose access to the cc upgrades skill.

Ok, objection to that recalled.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#112 - 2016-08-31 15:05:13 UTC
@bad bobby - c'mon. I'm obviously countering by saying that they'd be good for the economy (trade / industry alphas). Disagree or not, but don't be an ass.
Hong Hu
Roving Guns Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#113 - 2016-08-31 15:06:27 UTC
And while CCP is at it changing clones how about:

- No implants for Alpha clones.
- Implants for Omega clones can only be installed (and more importantly) removed in stations.
Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#114 - 2016-08-31 15:06:29 UTC
what happens if I've x market orders up and my clone reverts to alpha? As it is now the market orders stay up even when I'm not subbed.
Drazz Caylen
Team-Pyro Industries
#115 - 2016-08-31 15:07:21 UTC
Disclaimer: I have only skimmed over the skill lists and maybe comment later on them.

The game provides the means and the world where a completely new player can start from scratch with no help inside and only a bit of background research beforehand to amass enough wealth to plex before spending a single buck and keep plexing. Apparently this is undesired, and I do agree with it.

What drives this Free-to-play decision? Is your your subscription rate going down so much from the abundance of bad design choices you communicated and made over the last years, so you would like to give players the chance to see for themselves if it's still worth it which potentially improves online times and thus more chances for them to get hooked again?

Or is ISK vs. gametime going down so much that you now need to bait a ton of players into the community and hope they're spending a few bucks on ship skins before they jump out again?

Regarding multiboxing; To me, one Alpha account on top of as many subscribed accounts sounds like a good intermediate mix between "trial only" and "as many paid accounts as your computer can handle"

Regarding support: I can still log in with accounts which are long unsubscribed (and one old trial account) into zendesk and write tickets. I don't understand why you think there should be a problem?

Regarding test servers: Mass tests yes, anything else no. Because you want many people on mass tests. The more the merrier.

Questions:
  1. Will regular Trial accounts be completely going away? Or will you become "Alpha" after the trial stage?
  2. Can old characters who still have unallocated skillpoints use these to train restricted omega skills which have been started and half finished?
  3. If you are going to kill trial accounts, what was your reason for allowing tons of skills not that long ago, including Trial PI and now everything gets scrapped? Did your feedback feelers shown it was no good and you decided this wasn't a direction you wanted to take?
  4. Are you going to change current new player starting skills (again?)

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the idea of an extended trial and the ability for people to get back with their old accounts to see what the game is like before resubscribing blindly. Just be careful to not mess around too much with people having had subscribed accounts with all those hoops and loops to not corrupt character entries.
But I don't see the current state of being beneficial to grab more new players.

Quote:
Just like you, we’ve known this for a long time and, just like you, we’ve been doing everything we can to bring more people into our spectacular sandbox
Yeah.
So where are your plans for a proper UI overhaul, spectacularly good NPE and revamped career choices to pursue? Without those, it will be one big rid of disappointment for everyone you try to lure in. This will not change replacing trial accounts with Alpha clone states.
Because if a player cannot be hooked or understand your game within the 14 day trial period, you've failed. A player doesn't need more time.
You want a player to be hooked within the first session, craving more on the next day and subsequent days. Unlimited trial is not the answer to that if your core game interfacing and outlook remains... "insufficient."
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#116 - 2016-08-31 15:07:32 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
I have some MAJOR concerns.

1) Suicide ganking. The biggest obstacle for players is getting enough alpha to take a target down. With this change, it is now within the grasp of a player to launch 20+ alpha clone players in thrashers to gank things.

2) Faction Warfare. It is now possible for a single player to launch a large number of clients to close FW complexes.

3) Scouts. It is now possible for me to put a scout into every system within X jumps of me. Granted you eliminated cloaks, but I can just put them in capsules and I can scale to multiple characters per system so all my eyes won't get podded at the same time. Nobody wants to go probe down a bunch of worthless capsules in space in every system.


I would suggest that all the problems can be fixed by only allowing a single alpha client to log into Eve from a single computer. Most people won't have enough computers (or able to run enough VMs) to really abuse this.


I'm not opposed to this Clone States idea, but these are valid concerns.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#117 - 2016-08-31 15:08:28 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
@bad bobby - c'mon. I'm obviously countering by saying that they'd be good for the economy (trade / industry alphas). Disagree or not, but don't be an ass.

I couldn't find an argument to disagree with, so I asked for clarification.

I particularly found the idea of there being inflation, when the EVE economy has been deflationary for some time somewhat odd.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#118 - 2016-08-31 15:08:57 UTC
It's good that CCP left heavy drones off the list, but you can still pve plenty well with tech1 mediums.

Here is an idea to curb the potetinal multiboxing abuse if CCP doesn't at least want to limit alpha/omega clone multiboxing:

Don't let alpha clones assign drones to anyone.
Alhira Katserna
Deep Space Exploration And Exploitation
#119 - 2016-08-31 15:09:05 UTC
Following restrictions MUST apply here, ccp. I mean seriously...

- Not being able to join FW. Farming alts are already a problem.

- Apply current restrictions like with trial accounts. No Alpha and Omega being able to be logged in at the same time.

- No corperation management skill. Scout-wardec corps and even more failed newbro corps will damage the game and NPE.

- Not being able to gank right from the bat. Don´t even let this begin, ccpls.

- No jump clones. Being able to scout 2 systems with an Alpha Clone on either side of the universe seems rubbish.

- Think about something for industry because having 4 production lines per Alpha Clone means 12 per account. I already ran a few numders in my head and under certain circumstances this means a not unreasonable ammount of impact on Industry. Of course you need to know what you do but pretty much every Industrialist in this game should be easily able to figure out ways to abuse this.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#120 - 2016-08-31 15:10:13 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
I don't think you should be allowing any industry or trade skills on alpha clones, if you value the health of the in game economy.

It's just too easy to exploit and once it is adopted by enough players, it will be just too essential not to exploit.

If limited to PvP and PvE, I don't think I will have any serious problems with this proposal, but if you allow me and others like me to produce unlimited industry alts with no practically enforceable limitations on that, then things will get very bad and very quickly.


Very valid concerns.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.