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So, Barge Info?
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#481 - 2016-08-24 11:22:32 UTC
@Solecist:
Soel's idea of the bumping machariel would still work against you - though it would require an alt.

Alternatively his backup plan of calling CODE *might* work - though I've noticed they rarely come when called lol P


@Lawrence:
That makes sense - and I do realize that between imperfect skills, lack of implants, and coordination issues trying to get 10 different people to all gank at the same instant you need to bring extra catalysts because it isn't going to go *perfectly* to hit the maximum theoretical DPS every time.

I only brought it up because Jason Kusion specifically has been referenced as the metric against which we should measure the skiff - with people saying they don't want skiff tanks nerfed to be "Within 1 Kusion". And I was just using that kill to point out that even a high-tank skiff like that is *already* within Jason Kusion's power to gank just with his own alts, no special coordination.

I'm also assuming that since he doesn't need to talk to anybody for coordination and has his shortcuts set up he can achieve closer to the theoretical maximum dps from his ganking ships than 10 separate pilots could - though I could be wrong about that, i haven't looked into it much.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Solecist Project
#482 - 2016-08-24 11:24:29 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
What do?
The regular options don't work against me.

Report you for harassment, because whining to CCP is the fallback position of Carebears.

i know where you're going, but actually that's covered.
I know the rules, there are public words from GMs what i am allowed, and not allowed, to do.
i won't mention anything not to give any ideas, though. :P

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#483 - 2016-08-24 12:11:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Solecist Project wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
In truth I am not really a very effective miner, just do it when I cannot be bothered to do anything else and I don't fit a survey scanner either as it reduces the tank. But I mine with two Skiffs so I am quite active when mining.

how do you handle a situation when someone comes and outmines you?

Imagine i warp in with two covetors and always mine your rocks.
Full yield setup, of course.

Highsec, in case it wasn't obvious.

What do?



There are a number of ways, I just keep nibbling away at the rocks anyway, I have done that for hours in the past, one bot did that to me and I followed him around all day reducing his yield, he never bothered me again. You see most bot players would look at the low yield and think what the hell and then move elsewhere, which is what happened.

If it was someone who was doing that to annoy me, I would do two things, the first would be to let him get on with it, I don't get annoyed easily, but an option would be to gank him, I do have a trained ganker toon. Ganking a competing miner who crosses a line in bad behaviour is a perfectly acceptable attitude in my book and I could do it easily, that would be a dispute over resources and if I felt like it I would just do it, however in my experience most people have the attention span of a gnat, so I would get bothered for one or two days, I would just go something else for a couple of days or a week and then that person would have got bored. But if he was more persistent I would gank him.

Hold on a second.
It's *me* who warps in. :)

I'll adress your mentioned options.
Everything we talk about here, like kost things i mention, i did already btw.
Great fun, in a weird and interesting way.

You would let me get on with it. I will up with mining drones to reduce your yield to a level where you constantly have to change roids and don't really get well paid for the amount of effort. My covetors outmine you by a wide margin and as i don't cafe about the ore, i just drop it into cans and pop them.

My attention span is huOH A BUTTERFLY! ;)

You can't gank me at all unless you are specialized about it.
I warp out within the second of a potential thread coming.

So i continuously pest you and deny you mini g income, rightfully,
especially because you intentionally cripple your mining with a skiff.

What do?
The regular options don't work against me.


Well I can go and blow mission runners up in Stain easily enough, because I am not a carebear.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#484 - 2016-08-24 12:12:37 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
What do?
The regular options don't work against me.

Report you for harassment, because whining to CCP is the fallback position of Carebears.


Sad, why would I do that, there is enough stuff in game I can do.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Solecist Project
#485 - 2016-08-24 12:19:01 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Well I can go and blow mission runners up in Stain easily enough, because I am not a carebear.

That's a valid response.

Thanks!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#486 - 2016-08-24 15:09:32 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
7 is a sweet spot for gankers, it is not for people who want to be difficult to kill, it is not a stretch target and I say this having kept an eye on Skiffs being ganked I have found a number of Skiffs that have been ganked, Dirty Forum Alt linked one I was aware of. So while you in your ignorance dismiss that, I don't you are ignorant on this subject. This is not a miniscule increase in risk, it changes the threat level significantly.

What do you mean by 7 is a sweet spot for gankers; and based on what?

Plot of the number of gank ships for ganks contained in 5000 killmails for the highsec systems of The Forge, Domain, The Citadel and Sinq Laison from peak EU time last night:

https://puu.sh/qMLAu/067c46f623.png

Source files:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/osrxzznllycy9zw/ganks.zip?dl=0

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2016-08-24 15:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
This data does not conform to visual inspection per ZKill. I can easily find anywhere from 3-18 on the killmail;

I assume the "ganked" includes pods, noobships and such baloney, where "gankship" is not in fact "any non-NPC" ?


Edit: I think that alleged sweet spot of 7 comes from (a) number of people you can keep busy or humanly multibox, and (b) catalyst cost vs killmail value. Don't think Drac meant anything beyond that.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#488 - 2016-08-24 15:30:33 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
This data does not conform to visual inspection per ZKill. I can easily find anywhere from 3-18 on the killmail;

I assume the "ganked" includes pods, noobships and such baloney, where "gankship" is not in fact "any non-NPC" ?


Edit: I think that alleged sweet spot of 7 comes from (a) number of people you can keep busy or humanly multibox, and (b) catalyst cost vs killmail value. Don't think Drac meant anything beyond that.

Source files are provided. Go run the analysis yourself and update the data that was downloaded.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#489 - 2016-08-24 15:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
This data does not conform to visual inspection per ZKill. I can easily find anywhere from 3-18 on the killmail;

I assume the "ganked" includes pods, noobships and such baloney, where "gankship" is not in fact "any non-NPC" ?


Edit: I think that alleged sweet spot of 7 comes from (a) number of people you can keep busy or humanly multibox, and (b) catalyst cost vs killmail value. Don't think Drac meant anything beyond that.

Well it is only data for a *part* of a single day - whereas your visual inspection of zkill most likely traces back multiple days for any given ship type without much effort.

I'd be interested in a larger sample size (a month or so?) - but I realize it is an extremely large volume of data to go through.

All in all I actually like the chart - and despite the small sample size the trend is still pretty accurate - *most* ganks happen with 1-3 gankers on the mail.



The "7 as a sweet spot" thing is based on what Drac believes CODE. can field on a regular basis without needing to ask people to play outside their normal times/areas I presume. Whether it is accurate or not feel free to argue away P


edit: The chart even has the (presumably jump freighter?) outliers w/ 29 people on the ganks in there - which does indicate that people are capable of fielding a lot more ships *if* they are motivated to do so.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#490 - 2016-08-24 15:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
This data does not conform to visual inspection per ZKill. I can easily find anywhere from 3-18 on the killmail;

I assume the "ganked" includes pods, noobships and such baloney, where "gankship" is not in fact "any non-NPC" ?


Edit: I think that alleged sweet spot of 7 comes from (a) number of people you can keep busy or humanly multibox, and (b) catalyst cost vs killmail value. Don't think Drac meant anything beyond that.

Well it is only data for a *part* of a single day - whereas your visual inspection of zkill most likely traces back multiple days for any given ship type without much effort.

Yes, exactly.

I'm not claiming anything more about it than what I wrote above. I'm not claiming it's conclusive and source files are provided for anyone to go run the same analysis themselves.

It's an analysis conducted in the period immediately after Drac was calling people ignorant of the subject of ganking because his observations indicate 7 as the sweet spot for gankers.

When asked to clarify what he meant, he ignored that request, but the data doesn't lie.

As to what is included in the 'ganked', the included source files show it. There are 20,000 killmails included there, so there's a much larger pool of data from that period to download, but the additional source files are provided to go download more base data.

From the base data, each kill is looked at and if the kill was by a player, the next 2 minutes of killdata for the attackers is downloaded and checked to see if they were subsequently killed by CONCORD or a Sentry Gun (indicating they were criminal at the time).

If the attackers were killed as criminals, then the number of attackers on the original killmail is calculated and added to the totals. It's similar to the way CCP do the same thing.

So, even without downloading additional base data, it's possible to go and analyse a further 15,000 killmails across the highsec systems in those 4 regions, but the analysis will take many hours as it requires downloading further data from zkill. To analyse the 5000 following Drac's claims of ignorance took close to 4 hours, but that's also with terrible internet. It might be quicker for others.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#491 - 2016-08-24 16:09:59 UTC
i've finished my popcorns since page 3.
can someone provide some supply?

*bated breath*
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#492 - 2016-08-24 17:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
...

Roger that- as long as we're aware of what the sample represents, the trend is definitely there.

I tend to see 'em in groups of three (gankers- excluding the loot truck/"inspection agent") but it really depends on where you look. They're pretty territorial- and why wouldn't they. Every single day somebody flies something with no tank through their space. ;-)

Thanks ladies.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#493 - 2016-08-24 17:36:22 UTC
Not to get into a big debate, but it is what I would say from my long term observation is the number of characters that CODE / Miniluv could get together to gank miners without killing themselves cost wise and having to move people around in order to gank Skiffs. This would enable them to routinely gank Skiffs, you might disagree with this assessment or you might not, but I have looked at CODE / Miniluv ganker over an extended period and have a good idea what they can routinely do.

The current level of max tanked Skiff is a stretch for them and to be blunt I think it is about right. For example my Skiff in a 0.6 system is about 14 Catalysts which I know they could do if they really wanted to. Would be less if going for the EM hole as Lawrence indicated earlier.

Does that help?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Solecist Project
#494 - 2016-08-24 19:03:01 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
i've finished my popcorns since page 3.
can someone provide some supply?

*bated breath*

I give you a pitty-Like.

You disrupted my reading for this noble cause of mine.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#495 - 2016-08-24 21:43:44 UTC
that's what i'm here for Cool

*asking myself if it's edible a "pitty-Like"... chomp... puahhhh!*
Lawrence Lawton
The Lawton School for Pubbies Who Can't Mine Good
Novus Ordo.
#496 - 2016-08-25 08:12:40 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Not to get into a big debate, but it is what I would say from my long term observation is the number of characters that CODE / Miniluv could get together to gank miners without killing themselves cost wise and having to move people around in order to gank Skiffs. This would enable them to routinely gank Skiffs, you might disagree with this assessment or you might not, but I have looked at CODE / Miniluv ganker over an extended period and have a good idea what they can routinely do.

The current level of max tanked Skiff is a stretch for them and to be blunt I think it is about right. For example my Skiff in a 0.6 system is about 14 Catalysts which I know they could do if they really wanted to. Would be less if going for the EM hole as Lawrence indicated earlier.

Does that help?


You're very observant. Traditionally, we have not attacked Skiffs and Procurers. There are a few reasons:
- The wealth of softer targets available to the solo Agent or pair of Agents
- By tanking their ships (by choosing tanky ones) they are following the Code to some extent
- When you have a fleet big enough to take down Skiffs, you could gank juicy freighters instead
Lately we have decided that Skiff pilots need some attention, since there are so many of them who feel immune to the Code and publicly flaunt their non-compliance. We feel that by attacking their last bastion of perceived safety, we will further demoralize the non-compliant miners.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#497 - 2016-08-25 08:25:30 UTC
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Not to get into a big debate, but it is what I would say from my long term observation is the number of characters that CODE / Miniluv could get together to gank miners without killing themselves cost wise and having to move people around in order to gank Skiffs. This would enable them to routinely gank Skiffs, you might disagree with this assessment or you might not, but I have looked at CODE / Miniluv ganker over an extended period and have a good idea what they can routinely do.

The current level of max tanked Skiff is a stretch for them and to be blunt I think it is about right. For example my Skiff in a 0.6 system is about 14 Catalysts which I know they could do if they really wanted to. Would be less if going for the EM hole as Lawrence indicated earlier.

Does that help?


You're very observant. Traditionally, we have not attacked Skiffs and Procurers. There are a few reasons:
- The wealth of softer targets available to the solo Agent or pair of Agents
- By tanking their ships (by choosing tanky ones) they are following the Code to some extent
- When you have a fleet big enough to take down Skiffs, you could gank juicy freighters instead
Lately we have decided that Skiff pilots need some attention, since there are so many of them who feel immune to the Code and publicly flaunt their non-compliance. We feel that by attacking their last bastion of perceived safety, we will further demoralize the non-compliant miners.



You need to get a life.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#498 - 2016-08-25 10:27:40 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
You need to get a life.
Says the guy insulting him on an internet video-game forum... Roll

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Solecist Project
#499 - 2016-08-25 10:35:26 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
You need to get a life.
Says the guy insulting him on an internet video-game forum... Roll
You're so dirty...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#500 - 2016-08-25 10:36:45 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
You need to get a life.
Says the guy insulting him on an internet video-game forum... Roll
You're so dirty...



inb4 a shower! Shocked