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So, Barge Info?
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#421 - 2016-08-23 13:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Khan Wrenth,

baltec1 is just after setting the Skiff's tank so CODE and Miniluv can afford to gank them in terms of cost and manpower, it's lazy and entitled, but most of all they hate that some miners are able to thumb their noses at them. I think the current balance is fine, people have choices, lots of ships getting ganked and miners have a choice to up their game if they want to.

I often hear people go on about miners doing such things as aligning, watching local and keeping an eye on D-scan, yeah right, but mission runners don't do that either. First of all aligning is not easy with a 15 km range, second issue is mining in busy systems or pipes with a lot of throughput and resident gankers, then we get onto using D-scan. I mine in a pipe system, and I watch local and I check D-scan, but the ship I use has less yield and a bigger tank and the gankers when they come in always gank someone else and is there anything wrong in them picking people who fit ships that they can gank and not have to get friends to gank me. I am always at the keyboard when I mine, hell I go for a pee I dock up, mainly because I don't like giving an easy kill, and for me the tank being reduced to 7 or 8 catalysts is in the easy to afford level for gankers and easy to do with their numbers.

The difference between mission runners and miners is that miners tend to be sitting in easy to warp to locations where people can get a cloaky next to them to be able to warp in and blap. Doing that to a mission runner requires probes, then if they are in a gated mission they are on D-scan for longer and of course a clever mission runner uses that MJD to move out of range of the warp in. It is a much more difficult gank, however some Russians have perfected it.

To say it is because they don't want to pay attention is utter bullshite,

You correctly say mining is boring and it is, but what the hell is playing the game equally, that's like asking for a fair fight.

You have an issue with the EHP because you are not good enough to get around it and a wall of text does not get around that point. HTFU and kill my Skiff, simple as that!

EDIT: And I repeat for the cretins who do not get it, mining AFK is not possible, I get one and a half cycle per roid, AFK mining is not possible.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Solecist Project
#422 - 2016-08-23 13:59:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Gunrunner1775 wrote:

- nurf the skiff.. and the miners will use battleships... period, its gonna happen, and not a damn thing the gankers can do about it other then wine and cry that they now can no longer gank miners with 1-2 catalysts anymore because the miners are now mining in batleships (hell, most of those T1 battleships are cheaper in price in the T2 Exhumers)


Well, they can be bumped off the belt. Without bonus to range that's easy.
That serves enough purpose as punishment and will make them rethink that approach.
Social interaction, omg, so horrible...

And anyone who chooses tank is fine doing so ...
... but in the end does he deserve to be punished ...
... when his character's a sitting duck while he's not even actively play the game.

Balancing ships around those who don't play ...
... shouldn't punish those who actually do.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#423 - 2016-08-23 14:12:42 UTC
i find it funny at so many of the ganks that do happen

i personaly have suffered ONE (and only ONE gank and that was YEARS ago).. it was because i got up to grab a cold one from the fridge between cycles, meh, **** happens, i dont swet it... i play active, and i pay attention to local and intel ect... but the paranoia that this game brings out, i will always ALWAYS fly max tank possible and sacrifice yield
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#424 - 2016-08-23 14:19:03 UTC
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
i find it funny at so many of the ganks that do happen

i personaly have suffered ONE (and only ONE gank and that was YEARS ago).. it was because i got up to grab a cold one from the fridge between cycles, meh, **** happens, i dont swet it... i play active, and i pay attention to local and intel ect... but the paranoia that this game brings out, i will always ALWAYS fly max tank possible and sacrifice yield


You are the same as me, the funny one was one guy who came into the belt I was in and mined the same roid, the next day CODE came in and ganked his Hulk, I was rather grateful...

The thing is that I get the impression that so many gankers are cry babies..

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Solecist Project
#425 - 2016-08-23 14:22:57 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The thing is that I get the impression that so many gankers are cry babies..

Please everyone pay attention to the master manipulator baiting for responses.
Alternatively pay attention to the hurt ego that call gankers crybabies to feel better about himself.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#426 - 2016-08-23 14:42:09 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The thing is that I get the impression that so many gankers are cry babies..

Please everyone pay attention to the master manipulator baiting for responses.
Alternatively pay attention to the hurt ego that call gankers crybabies to feel better about himself.


The idea that baltec1 is interesting for null sec, however it just does not work in hisec, he has been going on about the skiff being too heavily tanked over multiple threads, many of which happened while you were de-subbed. He has cried in another thread about it not being fair that he cannot make a profit out of ganking T2 fit ships. Roll

A couple of weeks back there was four separate threads whining about the Skiff's tank. At fanfest, some ganker players were bending the ear of a sympathetic dev over the tank of the Skiff, and my contact came away from that thinking that CCP would nerf the Skiff's tank, which thankfully does not seem to be happening. They gank plenty barges, frigates and exhumers, they have two ships that are tough to gank, they are just not prepared to up their game to do it. It is a whine.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#427 - 2016-08-23 16:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Geronimo McVain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They are the same in terms of EHP.

Frankly, if battleships are getting by just fine with 60-80k ehp then the is no reason at all why the skiff will also not get by with 80-90k ehp.

You realise that a BS can shoot back to reduce incoming damage? I have some doubts about exhumers there. And you can show me the trick to find mission ships just using the D-Scan, which doesn't alert the target like combat probes.


Kill them on the gate, catalysts orbiting at 500 will not be hit by turret ships and the missile ships can get enough vollies off to kill maybe one. Drones are not much of a concern unless the ship comes with a drone bonus in which case they might pick off one ganker. Chances are by the time you even lock them in a BS you are well on the way to being dead. Alternatively, alpha them with either tornadoes or a swarm of arty thrashers. The only difference between ganking an 80k ehp skiff and an 80k EHP mission battleship is the battleship has a larger sig.


They say I want to support code but frankly ganking something with 80k omni resists and next to no worth in loot drops isn't something thats sustainable in large numbers.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#428 - 2016-08-23 17:31:21 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I mine in a pipe system, and I watch local and I check D-scan, but the ship I use has less yield and a bigger tank and the gankers when they come in always gank someone else and is there anything wrong in them picking people who fit ships that they can gank and not have to get friends to gank me. I am always at the keyboard when I mine, hell I go for a pee I dock up, mainly because I don't like giving an easy kill, and for me the tank being reduced to 7 or 8 catalysts is in the easy to afford level for gankers and easy to do with their numbers.

I was in a hisec system last evening. Only me and my alts in local.

If the number of people in local > asteroid betls, move to another system.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won’t believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space."
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#429 - 2016-08-23 17:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Tau Cabalander wrote:
"Space is big. Really big. You just won’t believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space."

Well since you've made it vaguely on topic...

I believe the following excerpt from the legendary poet herself is just what we need to sum up this thread:

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool.
They lay. They rotted. They turned
Around occasionally.
Bits of flesh dropped off them from
Time to time.
And sank into the pool's mire.
They also smelt a great deal.
-----Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (aka: Paul Neil Milne Johnstone)


edit: Yes, it is also my new signature P

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Lawrence Lawton
The Lawton School for Pubbies Who Can't Mine Good
Novus Ordo.
#430 - 2016-08-23 17:47:24 UTC
The changes will further differentiate the hulls by yield.

Skiff/Proc is currently the only class that requires more than a few suicide gankers to take down, and is therefore considered the safest class. In exchange for that safety it will now yield 25-40% less than other classes. This is an indirect nerf to automated mining, since Skiff/Proc is the ship of choice for large multibox and bot mining operations.

Human miners will have a much greater incentive to use Mack/Ret/Hulk/Cov to get the highest yield. Those who are attentive will be able to stay alive by watching local and dscan like responsible capsuleers, and those who are not will be farmed mercilessly as they should be.

The New Order is looking foward to the upcoming changes. We expect to see a decrease in the use of Skiffs and Procurers and a resulting increase in the number of soft targets for small groups of gankers.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#431 - 2016-08-23 17:57:20 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
and nurfing the skiff. will only result in me useing a Rokh to mine astroids ... are they gonna nurf the Rokh because it cant be ganked by 1-2 cats?? (and will just use the endurance for mining ice )


That is a really on the point statement, they cannot nerf the Skiff to facilitate easy ganking...

Checkmate to baltec1 and all you entitled gankers.


Seriously? baltec 1 has been saying that with his suggestion/plan a skiff could still get up to 80k EHP. 1-2 catalysts can not gank that. Stop posting like a tool.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#432 - 2016-08-23 18:10:43 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Gates anyone?

Using a MJD to be away from the warp in, NPC aggro...


Mean squat. You can gank them as they jump through the gate like anything else. It is just as easy to gank a mission battleship and it is anything else in this game.

So again I ask, how is it that the skiff will be useless with 80k EHP when the mission battleships that have 60-80k EHP are perfectly fine?


Gankers have a boner for ganking miners above anyone else, so what... And the Skiff will be replaced by the Rokh if CCP nerf it like it was before.

I am building two at the moment and I am training my other toon that mines into Caldari BS V which I already have on Dracvlad, so that covers my needs. CCP go make it easier for gankers, by nerfing the Skiff and watch as people change to Rokh's so much for your crap balancing...


Feel free to show this fabled rokh fit that's better than a skiff.

While your at it answer my question, How is 60-80k ehp fine for mission battleships while you think 80k ehp is not fine for the skiff.


Better is a relative term mate and that is all one has to say....


Please tell us how 2 catalysts can take down any ship at all with 80,000 EHP.

Here is my math:

Making the heroic assumption that the catalyst can put out 600 DPS and that there are 2 of them it will take 66 and 23rds seconds to gank such a ship. What is the response time in a 0.5 system? Worst case/least upper bound is 20 seconds. To gank a skiff it would require at a minimum 7 catalysts under these parameters which are at the extreme. A more realistic scenario is probably 10.

You are talking complete nonsense.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Solecist Project
#433 - 2016-08-23 18:15:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Please tell us how 2 catalysts can take down any ship at all with 80,000 EHP.

Here is my math:

Making the heroic assumption that the catalyst can put out 600 DPS and that there are 2 of them it will take 66 and 23rds seconds to gank such a ship. What is the response time in a 0.5 system? Worst case/least upper bound is 20 seconds. To gank a skiff it would require at a minimum 7 catalysts under these parameters which are at the extreme. A more realistic scenario is probably 10.

You are talking complete nonsense.

Unless there was a change I'm unaware of, the correct number is 700dps if you actually max out the potential.
Just mentioning it for the next time.



... did you change your face?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#434 - 2016-08-23 18:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
I get 1077 from the catalyst if you are willing to officer mag stab + polarized gun fit it...

Also some ganker in another thread said he gets 24 seconds in a 0.5 system with concord pre-pulled...

You still need 3.25 catalysts though for 80k ehp.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Solecist Project
#435 - 2016-08-23 18:22:55 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
I get 1077 from the catalyst if you are willing to officer mag stab + polarized gun fit it...

Also some ganker in another thread said he gets 24 seconds in a 0.5 system with concord pre-pulled...

You still need 3.25 catalysts though for 80k ehp.

Well that's kind of unreasonable...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#436 - 2016-08-23 18:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Solecist Project wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
I get 1077 from the catalyst if you are willing to officer mag stab + polarized gun fit it...

Also some ganker in another thread said he gets 24 seconds in a 0.5 system with concord pre-pulled...

You still need 3.25 catalysts though for 80k ehp.

Well that's kind of unreasonable...

True - but I wanted to see if it was possible *at all* - as Teckos asked...

Realistically @ 700 dps over 24 seconds you need 4.75 catalysts w/ full t2 fit, max skills, and 3% implants. That *is* doable to get 5 of them together. Kusion fields 10 ganking alts alone, as I recall - so he should be able to hit 160k ehp in a 0.5 system, in theory, just with catalysts.

edit: It actually comes out to 16,800 ehp per catalyst - just for those who want an easy multiplier - 15k ehp per catalyst should be a reasonable amount to actually expect/ask for in general...though if you want to be "safe" you will of course bring extra.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#437 - 2016-08-23 18:29:49 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Nice moving Goalposts Baltec. You got called on your example and you have singly failed to back it up.


What do you think incursion gangs and pvp gangs do in highsec?

Since Marauders can not receive RR in bastion mode - and non-marauders are better if not using bastion mode... I'm guessing they run local tanks.

You also keep referencing mission ships... But the few missioners who actually do bring RR alts along on their missions get made fun of almost as much as miners who get ganked - because they are "doing it wrong"...



As for what PvP gangs do in high-sec... I don't think you'll get any objections from the miners if you use *those* ships as the baseline...

That would be, what.. Anywhere between 150k-500k ehp? Plus RR on top of that?

Yeah, I think they'd be happy with that... Blink


Missioners with RR are doing it wrong with the current mechanics. Change those mechanics and then RR might be the "right way". We are talking mechanics here not what is right and wrong right now under the current mechanics.

500k EHP? Please tell us which ship is that?

I'm sorry, having 80k EHP will not optimize any ship for ganking. Not at all. That is just a flat out nonsensical bit of rhetoric.

If you have logistics as well you will be far, far harder to gank. If you have DPS ships then they can defend the logi ships with LE timers. Alternatively there could be modifications on LE timers as well.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#438 - 2016-08-23 18:40:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Teckos Pech wrote:
Missioners with RR are doing it wrong with the current mechanics. Change those mechanics and then RR might be the "right way". We are talking mechanics here not what is right and wrong right now under the current mechanics.

500k EHP? Please tell us which ship is that?

I'm sorry, having 80k EHP will not optimize any ship for ganking. Not at all. That is just a flat out nonsensical bit of rhetoric.

If you have logistics as well you will be far, far harder to gank. If you have DPS ships then they can defend the logi ships with LE timers. Alternatively there could be modifications on LE timers as well.

Baltec was comparing them to marauders/missioners under current mechanics - under current mechanics you need tornados to kill those ships, as they have high active tanks that make them significantly harder to whittle down with catalysts. That is why it is a *bad comparison*.

edit: In case anyone feels like whining that tornadoes or cats doesn't make a difference, I'll just point out for the record that 1 gank-fit tornado costs the same as *12* t2 fit catalysts, on average... So 8 tornados = 96 catalysts, by cost.


500k ehp is a brick proteus of course...with high-grade slaves + fleet boosts. Now I admit *most* high-sec pvpers don't fly quite that heavy - but I've seen them before. 150-250k is probably more "common" though, of course. Sometimes even less now that they are starting to realize nobody is fighting back anyway.... But again - it is a stupid comparison, so I don't know why baltec was trying to compare "high-sec PvP ships" to mining barges...
(For the record, it used to be up around a million ehp before the t3 nerfs - yes, some of them are *that* afraid of dying)

I never actually commented one way or another on the 80-90k ehp reference...So argue with the people who have on that one...

And I've proposed several strategies for fighting ganking using current mechanics. In fact my first response after people complained about going suspect with Baltec's proposed RR was essentially "So what? Kill whoever attacks you..." - again, argue with the people who disagree with you...



Anything else you'd like explained? P

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#439 - 2016-08-23 18:40:45 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
I get 1077 from the catalyst if you are willing to officer mag stab + polarized gun fit it...

Also some ganker in another thread said he gets 24 seconds in a 0.5 system with concord pre-pulled...

You still need 3.25 catalysts though for 80k ehp.


Oh FFS, you are just being an ass now. You usually post much better than this. Yeah, people are going to gank fitting officer modules while ganking.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#440 - 2016-08-23 18:44:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
and nurfing the skiff. will only result in me useing a Rokh to mine astroids ... are they gonna nurf the Rokh because it cant be ganked by 1-2 cats?? (and will just use the endurance for mining ice )


That is a really on the point statement, they cannot nerf the Skiff to facilitate easy ganking...

Checkmate to baltec1 and all you entitled gankers.


Seriously? baltec 1 has been saying that with his suggestion/plan a skiff could still get up to 80k EHP. 1-2 catalysts can not gank that. Stop posting like a tool.


You are the complete tool, this is a single multi boxer level so not acceptable.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp