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why does it seem like CCP is castrating high sec content creators

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#861 - 2016-10-06 18:37:41 UTC
March rabbit wrote:


Because that's not what happened.

The wolfs got heavily culled over the years and now the sheep are leaving because they are bored.

... still waiting for proofs[/quote]

More danger/content subs grow, the more nerfs that happened to danger/content the worse the subs got.
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#862 - 2016-10-06 18:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Isaac Armer
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Then they die in 2.5 minutes.


Obviously, it just means we can't have lazy ganker any more. They have to be organized enough to be on grid within 3 minutes of the bump. Lazy haulers/miners should get ganked every time, and lazy gankers who aren't organized for the gank should have a harder time catching people. That seems reasonable to me.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#863 - 2016-10-06 18:41:44 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
high sec ganking seems active as ever to me



At a record low.

Lasisha Mishi wrote:


heck systems like Uedama are still so lethal that they are black holes....


Thousands pass through for every ship killed, including the gankers to concord.

Lasisha Mishi wrote:

castrating high sec content creators? Uedama says otherwise. as its literally a high sec SIEGE system that "content creates" anyone dumb enough to go in.

and systems like Osmon are still very active.


Mining barge profitable ganking, jetcan piracy, targeted wardecs, ninja salvaging, jetcan baiting of pirates are just a few things removed from the game.

Lasisha Mishi wrote:

gotta remember high sec is not low sec.
but despite that, high sec is still pretty dangerous. which is fine as it is now.


It has a fraction of the content it used to have.



Lasisha Mishi wrote:

plus, high sec "content creators" don't seem to have problems war deccing everyone who comes through the jita stargate. they do it like its free candy.

They are now forced to do that due to recent nerfs.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#864 - 2016-10-06 18:47:39 UTC
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The wolfs got heavily culled over the years and now the sheep are leaving because they are bored.

I think it's amazing how you can take anything, flip it, twist it, and serve it to your purpose. I wonder if you really believe this delusion, or you're just trying to sell it for your cause.


My cause being the return of a ton of content that has been removed to keep idiots happy who then subsequently quit because they made their own game boring.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#865 - 2016-10-06 19:00:57 UTC
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
Isaac Armer wrote:
Astenion wrote:
I'm just coming back after a two-year hiatus; glad to be back, btw.

What are you guys talking about with "bumping mechanics" and ganking? Did CCP outlaw bumping or something?


A change is coming sometime where a ship automatically enters warp after three minutes of hitting the 'warp' button even if they are being bumped.

So no more bumping someone for an hour while trying to get a gank fleet together.


Then they die in 2.5 minutes.

More likely they'll just be suicide pointed in 2.5 minutes. Then probably suicide pointed again 2, 3 or 5 more times before then finally being ganked. The only thing (probably) going away is no-cost, hours long bumping for ransom although it's true we haven't heard any details.

In fact, it has been almost 6 months though without another word from CCP. One has to wonder at this point if they ran across an intractable problem deep in the physics code and have dropped the whole idea?

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Railyn Quisqueya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#866 - 2016-10-06 19:09:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The wolfs got heavily culled over the years and now the sheep are leaving because they are bored.

I think it's amazing how you can take anything, flip it, twist it, and serve it to your purpose. I wonder if you really believe this delusion, or you're just trying to sell it for your cause.


My cause being the return of a ton of content that has been removed to keep idiots happy who then subsequently quit because they made their own game boring.

Oh don't worry. Slowly but surely the "idiots" are leaving and the game will be left just for you smarties to do as you please. It's very good reason for you to rejoice. Just hang on a bit longer.
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#867 - 2016-10-06 20:22:14 UTC
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The wolfs got heavily culled over the years and now the sheep are leaving because they are bored.

I think it's amazing how you can take anything, flip it, twist it, and serve it to your purpose. I wonder if you really believe this delusion, or you're just trying to sell it for your cause.


Lol, funny thing is, we HTFUers wonder the same thing about you carebear lot. Do you really believe all that nonsense about us being the main reason EVE has retention problems?
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#868 - 2016-10-06 21:00:27 UTC
Galaxy Duck wrote:
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The wolfs got heavily culled over the years and now the sheep are leaving because they are bored.

I think it's amazing how you can take anything, flip it, twist it, and serve it to your purpose. I wonder if you really believe this delusion, or you're just trying to sell it for your cause.


Lol, funny thing is, we HTFUers wonder the same thing about you carebear lot. Do you really believe all that nonsense about us being the main reason EVE has retention problems?

Look at the numbers in 0.0 they look down about 60% on EvEs high times but there is still lots of activity there.

Look at these very forums, it is the wolves mostly left after all these years.

Just go for a fly around Hi-sec, the great mining fleets have gone. Look at the NPC kills in Hi-sec, most of the mission runners have gone.

As I said the wolves have been a victim of there own success. Over the years I have seen lots of miners leave because of Ganking, mostly because there is no-consequences for the majority of these gankers, they just make a new alt.

To use the old wild west analogy miners are unarmed victims and that would get you hung. In EvE it got you a slight security penalty until you did it enough that you need to re-roll a new character.

The wolves won. The sheep left.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#869 - 2016-10-06 21:10:58 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The wolfs got heavily culled over the years and now the sheep are leaving because they are bored.

I think it's amazing how you can take anything, flip it, twist it, and serve it to your purpose. I wonder if you really believe this delusion, or you're just trying to sell it for your cause.


Lol, funny thing is, we HTFUers wonder the same thing about you carebear lot. Do you really believe all that nonsense about us being the main reason EVE has retention problems?

Look at the numbers in 0.0 they look down about 60% on EvEs high times but there is still lots of activity there.

Look at these very forums, it is the wolves mostly left after all these years.

Just go for a fly around Hi-sec, the great mining fleets have gone. Look at the NPC kills in Hi-sec, most of the mission runners have gone.

As I said the wolves have been a victim of there own success. Over the years I have seen lots of miners leave because of Ganking, mostly because there is no-consequences for the majority of these gankers, they just make a new alt.

To use the old wild west analogy miners are unarmed victims and that would get you hung. In EvE it got you a slight security penalty until you did it enough that you need to re-roll a new character.

The wolves won. The sheep left.


You're trying to fill the bingo card here.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good bias.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#870 - 2016-10-06 21:25:44 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The wolfs got heavily culled over the years and now the sheep are leaving because they are bored.

I think it's amazing how you can take anything, flip it, twist it, and serve it to your purpose. I wonder if you really believe this delusion, or you're just trying to sell it for your cause.


Lol, funny thing is, we HTFUers wonder the same thing about you carebear lot. Do you really believe all that nonsense about us being the main reason EVE has retention problems?

Look at the numbers in 0.0 they look down about 60% on EvEs high times but there is still lots of activity there.

Look at these very forums, it is the wolves mostly left after all these years.

Just go for a fly around Hi-sec, the great mining fleets have gone. Look at the NPC kills in Hi-sec, most of the mission runners have gone.

As I said the wolves have been a victim of there own success. Over the years I have seen lots of miners leave because of Ganking, mostly because there is no-consequences for the majority of these gankers, they just make a new alt.

To use the old wild west analogy miners are unarmed victims and that would get you hung. In EvE it got you a slight security penalty until you did it enough that you need to re-roll a new character.

The wolves won. The sheep left.


You're trying to fill the bingo card here.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good bias.

If it was not the PVE players who had left, these forums would be full of miners complaining that the cost of minerals had tanked and that CCP was making it easier to gank them, to try and get the wolves back.

The reality of the situation is hard to argue with, the fact is this thread is called " why does it seem like CCP is castrating high sec content creators" and not "why is CCP making it easier to kill miners". CCP have a lot of wolves left, but not very many sheep. They want the sheep to return.

It has always been the wolves who scream the loudest, the sheep have just voted with their wallets and finally CCP is hearing the message.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#871 - 2016-10-06 21:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Isaac Armer
Mark Marconi wrote:
If it was not the PVE players who had left, these forums would be full of miners complaining that the cost of minerals had tanked and that CCP was making it easier to gank them, to try and get the wolves back.

The reality of the situation is hard to argue with, the fact is this thread is called " why does it seem like CCP is castrating high sec content creators" and not "why is CCP making it easier to kill miners". CCP have a lot of wolves left, but not very many sheep. They want the sheep to return.

It has always been the wolves who scream the loudest, the sheep have just voted with their wallets and finally CCP is hearing the message.


Another piece is where in space people choose to live. I've seen a significant portion of people permanently leave HS to PvE in low, null or WHs over the last few years. The reward is better, and in many cases it's just as safe. That means targets are out there, but ganking and wardeccing groups would have to leave HS themselves to find those targets. Adapt or die applies to all groups. Maybe it's time for HS gankers to leave HS to find content.

I personally enjoy solo PvE. I do 95% of it in low, null or WHs any more, so yes you could say the threat of being ganked pushed me out of HS. Operation successful, right? Wasn't that part of the point? Now the hunters need to follow people like me to keep getting kills.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#872 - 2016-10-06 21:40:44 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:

Look at the numbers in 0.0 they look down about 60% on EvEs high times but there is still lots of activity there.

Look at these very forums, it is the wolves mostly left after all these years.

Just go for a fly around Hi-sec, the great mining fleets have gone. Look at the NPC kills in Hi-sec, most of the mission runners have gone.

As I said the wolves have been a victim of there own success. Over the years I have seen lots of miners leave because of Ganking, mostly because there is no-consequences for the majority of these gankers, they just make a new alt.

To use the old wild west analogy miners are unarmed victims and that would get you hung. In EvE it got you a slight security penalty until you did it enough that you need to re-roll a new character.

The wolves won. The sheep left.


You're trying to fill the bingo card here.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good bias.

If it was not the PVE players who had left, these forums would be full of miners complaining that the cost of minerals had tanked and that CCP was making it easier to gank them, to try and get the wolves back.

The reality of the situation is hard to argue with, the fact is this thread is called " why does it seem like CCP is castrating high sec content creators" and not "why is CCP making it easier to kill miners". CCP have a lot of wolves left, but not very many sheep. They want the sheep to return.

It has always been the wolves who scream the loudest, the sheep have just voted with their wallets and finally CCP is hearing the message.


Ok. Bingo card full. Well done sir.

That's some A-grade "reality" you have there.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#873 - 2016-10-06 21:52:41 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:

Look at the numbers in 0.0 they look down about 60% on EvEs high times but there is still lots of activity there.

Look at these very forums, it is the wolves mostly left after all these years.

Just go for a fly around Hi-sec, the great mining fleets have gone. Look at the NPC kills in Hi-sec, most of the mission runners have gone.

As I said the wolves have been a victim of there own success. Over the years I have seen lots of miners leave because of Ganking, mostly because there is no-consequences for the majority of these gankers, they just make a new alt.

To use the old wild west analogy miners are unarmed victims and that would get you hung. In EvE it got you a slight security penalty until you did it enough that you need to re-roll a new character.

The wolves won. The sheep left.


You're trying to fill the bingo card here.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good bias.

If it was not the PVE players who had left, these forums would be full of miners complaining that the cost of minerals had tanked and that CCP was making it easier to gank them, to try and get the wolves back.

The reality of the situation is hard to argue with, the fact is this thread is called " why does it seem like CCP is castrating high sec content creators" and not "why is CCP making it easier to kill miners". CCP have a lot of wolves left, but not very many sheep. They want the sheep to return.

It has always been the wolves who scream the loudest, the sheep have just voted with their wallets and finally CCP is hearing the message.


Ok. Bingo card full. Well done sir.

That's some A-grade "reality" you have there.

Well that is ok then. CCP are must not be making Hi-sec safer and they are must be trying to get more wolves into the game to counter the huge numbers of miners and mission runners.

So no real point to all these ganker complaints in this thread then. It must be a paradise for the small numbers of gankers who remain, CCP can safely ignore the gankers as a bunch of whiners.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#874 - 2016-10-06 21:55:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:

Look at the numbers in 0.0 they look down about 60% on EvEs high times but there is still lots of activity there.

Look at these very forums, it is the wolves mostly left after all these years.

Just go for a fly around Hi-sec, the great mining fleets have gone. Look at the NPC kills in Hi-sec, most of the mission runners have gone.

As I said the wolves have been a victim of there own success. Over the years I have seen lots of miners leave because of Ganking, mostly because there is no-consequences for the majority of these gankers, they just make a new alt.

To use the old wild west analogy miners are unarmed victims and that would get you hung. In EvE it got you a slight security penalty until you did it enough that you need to re-roll a new character.

The wolves won. The sheep left.


You're trying to fill the bingo card here.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good bias.

If it was not the PVE players who had left, these forums would be full of miners complaining that the cost of minerals had tanked and that CCP was making it easier to gank them, to try and get the wolves back.

The reality of the situation is hard to argue with, the fact is this thread is called " why does it seem like CCP is castrating high sec content creators" and not "why is CCP making it easier to kill miners". CCP have a lot of wolves left, but not very many sheep. They want the sheep to return.

It has always been the wolves who scream the loudest, the sheep have just voted with their wallets and finally CCP is hearing the message.


Ok. Bingo card full. Well done sir.

That's some A-grade "reality" you have there.

Well that is ok then. CCP are must not be making Hi-sec safer and they are must be trying to get more wolves into the game to counter the huge numbers of miners and mission runners.

So no real point to all these ganker complaints in this thread then. It must be a paradise for the small numbers of gankers who remain, CCP can safely ignore the gankers as a bunch of whiners.

CCP can safely ignore all whiners, no matter who they are. They generally lack objective facts and go purely on their own unvalidated opinion. You're starting to be a good example of that.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#875 - 2016-10-06 22:10:50 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Because there is clearly at least one very high profile dev who wants to control the narrative of the game and he doesn't like gankers. In addition he continually lies to the community and makes up BS stories to feed people, but they are just never consistent.


I beg to differ, MTU, MDU, scanning made easier, uber scanning ships, T-3 destroyers, and much more to "get" people involved with each other by making it easier to find people, I made the mistake of deploying a MDU in what I thought was a good safe system, one that I know most of the residents and their activities, however, I did not count on my safe spot being found because someone was watching, I got sloppy and almost got found, lucky for me I packed up and cloaked before they got there.

Now it is my policy to always fly like I'm in low/null/WH when doing activities that require discretion, if anything CCP devs had made it easier to "interact" involuntarily.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#876 - 2016-10-06 22:12:20 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

CCP can safely ignore all whiners, no matter who they are. They generally lack objective facts and go purely on their own unvalidated opinion. You're starting to be a good example of that.

They did, for years and let the gankers and pvpers run a muck.

Now they are so low in subs that they are having to make the game Free to Play, to try and get people back.

And all that will only bring some sheep back until packs of wolves using free accounts drive them off as well.

The fact are obvious to those who choose to see them.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#877 - 2016-10-06 22:22:12 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Because there is clearly at least one very high profile dev who wants to control the narrative of the game and he doesn't like gankers. In addition he continually lies to the community and makes up BS stories to feed people, but they are just never consistent.


I beg to differ, MTU, MDU, scanning made easier, uber scanning ships, T-3 destroyers, and much more to "get" people involved with each other by making it easier to find people, I made the mistake of deploying a MDU in what I thought was a good safe system, one that I know most of the residents and their activities, however, I did not count on my safe spot being found because someone was watching, I got sloppy and almost got found, lucky for me I packed up and cloaked before they got there.

Now it is my policy to always fly like I'm in low/null/WH when doing activities that require discretion, if anything CCP devs had made it easier to "interact" involuntarily.

No need to beg, but ok.

None of those things you mentioned have much to do with ganking.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#878 - 2016-10-06 22:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

CCP can safely ignore all whiners, no matter who they are. They generally lack objective facts and go purely on their own unvalidated opinion. You're starting to be a good example of that.

They did, for years and let the gankers and pvpers run a muck.

Now they are so low in subs that they are having to make the game Free to Play, to try and get people back.

And all that will only bring some sheep back until packs of wolves using free accounts drive them off as well.

The fact are obvious to those who choose to see them.

The "facts" you are claiming, aren't facts at all. They are opinion. Unvalidated ones at that.

As an example, you claim sub numbers dropping has making CCP have to introduce F2P. However, where is your evidence that this is the reason? Isn't it also equally likely that over the last couple of years CCP have been using evidence-based decision making much more frequently. We saw that with CCP Rise back in 2014 showing that only 1% of people that leave the game claim in game griefing as the reason. That stat has been focussed on a lot, but the most interesting aspect of it is that leaves 99% of other reasons that people have provided and we know that the subscription fee also falls in that 99% (just not how much). Isn't it also likely that CCP are just resoonding to what they are seeing from that? Nothing to do with what you claim.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#879 - 2016-10-06 22:45:56 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

CCP can safely ignore all whiners, no matter who they are. They generally lack objective facts and go purely on their own unvalidated opinion. You're starting to be a good example of that.

They did, for years and let the gankers and pvpers run a muck.

Now they are so low in subs that they are having to make the game Free to Play, to try and get people back.

And all that will only bring some sheep back until packs of wolves using free accounts drive them off as well.

The fact are obvious to those who choose to see them.

The "facts" you are claiming, aren't facts at all. They are opinion. Invalidated ones at that.

As an example, you claim sub numbers dropping has making CCP have to introduce F2P. However, where is your evidence that this is the reason? Isn't it also equally likely that over the last couple of years CCP have been using evidence-based decision making much more frequently. We saw that with CCP Rise back in 2014 showing that only 1% of people that leave the game claim in game griefing as the reason. That stat has been focussed on a lot, but the most interesting aspect of it is that leaves 99% of other reasons that people have provided and we know that the subscription fee also falls in that 99% (just not how much). Isn't it also likely that CCP are just resoonding to what they are seeing from that? Nothing to do with what you claim.

Did you actually watch that presentation? What they actually said is 1% of New players. Also most people had not been ganked as a NEW player and seriously the imbalance in ganking is not from when you are a new player and lose so little but when you are older and lose a lot more. As New players 99% probably leave because of the learning curve, they always did. Its that a lot of others have left in droves that is the problem.

I will admit subs were lost due to CCPs legendary customer service and the fact they have promised so much and delivered so little small a percentage of their promises over the years.

Oh and my evidence is CCPs financial accounts they have been falling for years, first due to spending money on stupid projects and the last few have just been a fall in revenue from eve.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#880 - 2016-10-06 23:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

CCP can safely ignore all whiners, no matter who they are. They generally lack objective facts and go purely on their own unvalidated opinion. You're starting to be a good example of that.

They did, for years and let the gankers and pvpers run a muck.

Now they are so low in subs that they are having to make the game Free to Play, to try and get people back.

And all that will only bring some sheep back until packs of wolves using free accounts drive them off as well.

The fact are obvious to those who choose to see them.

The "facts" you are claiming, aren't facts at all. They are opinion. Invalidated ones at that.

As an example, you claim sub numbers dropping has making CCP have to introduce F2P. However, where is your evidence that this is the reason? Isn't it also equally likely that over the last couple of years CCP have been using evidence-based decision making much more frequently. We saw that with CCP Rise back in 2014 showing that only 1% of people that leave the game claim in game griefing as the reason. That stat has been focussed on a lot, but the most interesting aspect of it is that leaves 99% of other reasons that people have provided and we know that the subscription fee also falls in that 99% (just not how much). Isn't it also likely that CCP are just resoonding to what they are seeing from that? Nothing to do with what you claim.

Did you actually watch that presentation? What they actually said is 1% of New players. Also most people had not been ganked as a NEW player and seriously the imbalance in ganking is not from when you are a new player and lose so little but when you are older and lose a lot more. As New players 99% probably leave because of the learning curve, they always did. Its that a lot of others have left in droves that is the problem.

I will admit subs were lost due to CCPs legendary customer service and the fact they have promised so much and delivered so little small a percentage of their promises over the years.

Oh and my evidence is CCPs financial accounts they have been falling for years, first due to spending money on stupid projects and the last few have just been a fall in revenue from eve.

Yes I've watched that presentation and the 1% wasn't really the part relevant to the point. The point was about CCP using feedback from customers and analysis of other data to make business decisions; and their data analysis being just as likely a reason for their decisions.

So where is your evidence of what you claim as "facts"?

If you are going to claim you know the facts, then show they are facts and not just fantasy in your head.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."