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What will be the AUR price of Skill Extractors? Show us your guess!
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Kuetlzelcoatl
#61 - 2016-01-30 06:09:59 UTC
stg slate wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Extractor costs are the equivalent of the char transfer fee in the bazaar. The average traded char has 50m skillpoints, which costs 2 PLEX to transfer. Hence a valid guess will be 1/100 PLEX (3500AUR) = 35 AUR.


That would be ridiculous... I'd actually be a huge fan, but no way they'd consider that :P

You know, I'm getting annoyed they haven't told us how much they are yet.


CCP is probably still trying to determine the ideal price to maximize their profit.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2016-01-30 07:19:49 UTC
alindak Kahoudi wrote:
I’d be more interested in knowing what the market price is going to be for a 500k sp points injector...

The price cap for injectors on the long run will be around 1/4 PLEX + Extractor costs. Above that price farming SP with PLEXed accounts/chars becomes profitable over selling PLEX directly on the market.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#63 - 2016-01-30 07:48:06 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#64 - 2016-01-30 08:30:39 UTC
pajedas wrote:

I think most of you are confused about the proposed process. The 'Skill Extractor' should have a minimal cost and the ‘Skill Injector’ will be market driven. I would hope that CCP will also allow contracts to be created. IMO a player should be able to chose who he/she would like to sell/trade/give their SP's to.


The extractors have an opportunity cost for CCP. Each extractor means a subscription time the player will not need to pay for and at least for now, subscriptions are the core of EVE income.

(Some may claim that the subscription already was paid when the SP were generated... but that's past business. CCP already earned and spent that money, and the point is that by buying 4 extractors a newish player will be skipping to pay 1 month of subscription. A veteran player, though, will get a poorer deal, but also haves a significantly higher income/wealth)
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#65 - 2016-01-30 08:40:51 UTC
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2016-01-30 09:20:12 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
pajedas wrote:

I think most of you are confused about the proposed process. The 'Skill Extractor' should have a minimal cost and the ‘Skill Injector’ will be market driven. I would hope that CCP will also allow contracts to be created. IMO a player should be able to chose who he/she would like to sell/trade/give their SP's to.


The extractors have an opportunity cost for CCP. Each extractor means a subscription time the player will not need to pay for and at least for now, subscriptions are the core of EVE income.

(Some may claim that the subscription already was paid when the SP were generated... but that's past business. CCP already earned and spent that money, and the point is that by buying 4 extractors a newish player will be skipping to pay 1 month of subscription. A veteran player, though, will get a poorer deal, but also haves a significantly higher income/wealth)

As long as you have to have an active subscription just to play an account (even with paused skill queue, albeit stupid), there are no significant opportunity costs, extractors will be an additional revenue stream for CCP (net plus over lost transaction fees in the bazaar), if priced properly.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Kalgeroth
Doomheim
#67 - 2016-01-30 09:47:41 UTC
Kuetlzelcoatl wrote:

CCP is probably still trying to determine the ideal price to maximize their profit.



yup i imagine that's one of the reasons we haven't heard the price yet, and there's that sweet spot they're trying to work out which is 'affordable' to make it a mass-market tool

it's better for them to sell lots of something at an affordable AUR price, than very few of something at a silly price
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#68 - 2016-01-30 10:32:13 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
pajedas wrote:

I think most of you are confused about the proposed process. The 'Skill Extractor' should have a minimal cost and the ‘Skill Injector’ will be market driven. I would hope that CCP will also allow contracts to be created. IMO a player should be able to chose who he/she would like to sell/trade/give their SP's to.


The extractors have an opportunity cost for CCP. Each extractor means a subscription time the player will not need to pay for and at least for now, subscriptions are the core of EVE income.

(Some may claim that the subscription already was paid when the SP were generated... but that's past business. CCP already earned and spent that money, and the point is that by buying 4 extractors a newish player will be skipping to pay 1 month of subscription. A veteran player, though, will get a poorer deal, but also haves a significantly higher income/wealth)

As long as you have to have an active subscription just to play an account (even with paused skill queue, albeit stupid), there are no significant opportunity costs, extractors will be an additional revenue stream for CCP (net plus over lost transaction fees in the bazaar), if priced properly.


Extractors and injection will compete against dual training, with the bonus of being way faster.

"Currently we're selling 1 PLEX to let players train their alts for 20 € a month. Now with the skill trading thing we could sell 4 extractors to achieve the same result but way faster. What should be the right price for such a service?"
"Cheaper than PLEX! We are in this business to lose money each time a player trains an alt with injectors rather than a PLEX!"

Not likely, not even for CCP.

(Admittedly there's other factors, like willingness to spend smaller sums of money, plus the fact that mostly the service will be used by price insensitive players using their pooled ISK to acquire PLEXes, thus driving their sells up... but those are impossible to account without hard data)
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2016-01-30 11:05:42 UTC
This would only be a loss for CCP if PLEX sales go down as a consequence of having 4x injectors (including extractors) costing less than a PLEX (ignoring diminishing returns) ...

I'm my own NPC alt.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#70 - 2016-01-30 11:41:25 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
This would only be a loss for CCP if PLEX sales go down as a consequence of having 4x injectors (including extractors) costing less than a PLEX (ignoring diminishing returns) ...


So right now I can buy a months extra training (only on an alt) through a plex, this SP is created out of thin air by CCP over the course of a month. Cost €20 / ~1b isk

With injectors I can buy a months training worth of SP if I like (or less if I buy less injectors) and I can even apply it to my main, better still it applies instantly. This SP is not created out of thin air but comes at a cost to whoever extracted it. So surely the price of 4 filled injectors is going to be way over the cost of a plex.

Now the actual extractors I could see selling for less than a plex but given CCP's previous "micro"-transactions I can see this being a little used feature. The short term benefit of shuffling around SP is going to be weighed against the loss of SP that comes with each injector use.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2016-01-30 11:49:46 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
pajedas wrote:

I think most of you are confused about the proposed process. The 'Skill Extractor' should have a minimal cost and the ‘Skill Injector’ will be market driven. I would hope that CCP will also allow contracts to be created. IMO a player should be able to chose who he/she would like to sell/trade/give their SP's to.


The extractors have an opportunity cost for CCP. Each extractor means a subscription time the player will not need to pay for and at least for now, subscriptions are the core of EVE income.

(Some may claim that the subscription already was paid when the SP were generated... but that's past business. CCP already earned and spent that money, and the point is that by buying 4 extractors a newish player will be skipping to pay 1 month of subscription. A veteran player, though, will get a poorer deal, but also haves a significantly higher income/wealth)

As long as you have to have an active subscription just to play an account (even with paused skill queue, albeit stupid), there are no significant opportunity costs, extractors will be an additional revenue stream for CCP (net plus over lost transaction fees in the bazaar), if priced properly.


Extractors and injection will compete against dual training, with the bonus of being way faster.

"Currently we're selling 1 PLEX to let players train their alts for 20 € a month. Now with the skill trading thing we could sell 4 extractors to achieve the same result but way faster. What should be the right price for such a service?"
"Cheaper than PLEX! We are in this business to lose money each time a player trains an alt with injectors rather than a PLEX!"

Not likely, not even for CCP.

(Admittedly there's other factors, like willingness to spend smaller sums of money, plus the fact that mostly the service will be used by price insensitive players using their pooled ISK to acquire PLEXes, thus driving their sells up... but those are impossible to account without hard data)


Maybe... just maybe... base pricing for any service CCP has come up with so far is just insane. I mean let's take a cold hard look here. 1 PLEX is 15 bucks. 1 PLEX to redesign your character, 1 PLEX to train a secondary character on an account you're already paying for and can't use at the same time. 2 PLEX apparently to sell a character. Even ship SKINs are 10 to 15 bucks or higher. Who comes up with these prices?!

If CCP thinks they can attract a new audience by first making them pay 15 dollars a month and then ask another 15 dollars on top to get 500k SP packages, they are completely delusional.

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Kalgeroth
Doomheim
#72 - 2016-01-30 11:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalgeroth
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
[

(Admittedly there's other factors, like willingness to spend smaller sums of money, plus the fact that mostly the service will be used by price insensitive players using their pooled ISK to acquire PLEXes, thus driving their sells up... but those are impossible to account without hard data)


The other main factor is the price attached to the skillpoints. Pilots won't extract the SP and sell it in an extractor for no extra cost.

You can sell skillpoints already through selling whole characters in the bazaar. Generally you can get 250m ISK per 500k of skillpoints. The cost of a skill injector will be the AUR/ISK conversion + the value of the SP.

Anyway, CCP have shown time and time again that they are incapable of pricing 'microtransactions' sensibly. They miss the sweet spot of mass-market affordability and value, and then wonder why the New Eden Store is barely used. Their greed blinds them to a sensible business model of attractive, affordable items with broad mass appeal. Instead they go for low volume, high margin, and lose huge amounts of potential revenue as a result.

I mean, 1 plex to re-do your characters face? Ok...that'll be why hardly anyone bothers. If they'd price it more sensibly (say, 500 AUR) they'd get a lot more revenue from it.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#73 - 2016-01-30 12:57:33 UTC
Kalgeroth wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
[

(Admittedly there's other factors, like willingness to spend smaller sums of money, plus the fact that mostly the service will be used by price insensitive players using their pooled ISK to acquire PLEXes, thus driving their sells up... but those are impossible to account without hard data)


The other main factor is the price attached to the skillpoints. Pilots won't extract the SP and sell it in an extractor for no extra cost.

You can sell skillpoints already through selling whole characters in the bazaar. Generally you can get 250m ISK per 500k of skillpoints. The cost of a skill injector will be the AUR/ISK conversion + the value of the SP.

Anyway, CCP have shown time and time again that they are incapable of pricing 'microtransactions' sensibly. They miss the sweet spot of mass-market affordability and value, and then wonder why the New Eden Store is barely used. Their greed blinds them to a sensible business model of attractive, affordable items with broad mass appeal. Instead they go for low volume, high margin, and lose huge amounts of potential revenue as a result.

I mean, 1 plex to re-do your characters face? Ok...that'll be why hardly anyone bothers. If they'd price it more sensibly (say, 500 AUR) they'd get a lot more revenue from it.


It's not necessarily a PLEX to resculpt the character... a PLEX yields 3500 AUR and resculpt certificate costs 1,000 AUR at the NES.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2016-01-30 13:12:38 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Kalgeroth wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
[

(Admittedly there's other factors, like willingness to spend smaller sums of money, plus the fact that mostly the service will be used by price insensitive players using their pooled ISK to acquire PLEXes, thus driving their sells up... but those are impossible to account without hard data)


The other main factor is the price attached to the skillpoints. Pilots won't extract the SP and sell it in an extractor for no extra cost.

You can sell skillpoints already through selling whole characters in the bazaar. Generally you can get 250m ISK per 500k of skillpoints. The cost of a skill injector will be the AUR/ISK conversion + the value of the SP.

Anyway, CCP have shown time and time again that they are incapable of pricing 'microtransactions' sensibly. They miss the sweet spot of mass-market affordability and value, and then wonder why the New Eden Store is barely used. Their greed blinds them to a sensible business model of attractive, affordable items with broad mass appeal. Instead they go for low volume, high margin, and lose huge amounts of potential revenue as a result.

I mean, 1 plex to re-do your characters face? Ok...that'll be why hardly anyone bothers. If they'd price it more sensibly (say, 500 AUR) they'd get a lot more revenue from it.


It's not necessarily a PLEX to resculpt the character... a PLEX yields 3500 AUR and resculpt certificate costs 1,000 AUR at the NES.


Tell that to the option on your account page which still requires a full PLEX.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#75 - 2016-01-30 14:39:00 UTC
I mean look, PLEX should definitely be cheaper than they are now*, no disagreement there, but it would be ridiculous to be able to train characters by injection more cheaply than by just training them.



*As I've said before several times.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2016-01-30 15:01:54 UTC
I'm still of the opinion that PLEX as a currency should be completely removed from the game, to be replaced by Aurum. There is no logical reason for these two currencies to exist beside one another.

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Kalgeroth
Doomheim
#77 - 2016-01-30 16:07:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I mean look, PLEX should definitely be cheaper than they are now*, no disagreement there, but it would be ridiculous to be able to train characters by injection more cheaply than by just training them.



*As I've said before several times.


the skillpoints themselves carry an ISK value (about 250m per 500k SP as per character bazaar)... for example:

imagine you have 30m SP and you want 4 million extra skillpoint to fly the shiny thing

Option 1: 2 x plex game time, regular training = 2.3bn at current prices
Option 2: buy 10 injectors for immediate gain

the SP alone are worth 2bn ISK through a character sale, so... even if the extractors were cheap (like, 10 per plex), it would still be more expensive than regular training... if they cost something crazy like 2 per plex, it would cost you around 10bn ISK verses 2bn ISK...

i'm not sure many people would do that, and i'm not sure how many people could afford to? you can buy whole characters with 30m SP for just a little more...
Altair Taurus
#78 - 2016-01-30 16:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
As I said before 300-600 mil. ISK for an injector is an optimal price. Higher price simply means new monocle-like toy in AURUM Store and minimal profit to CCP.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#79 - 2016-01-30 16:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Malcanis wrote:
I mean look, PLEX should definitely be cheaper than they are now*, no disagreement there, but it would be ridiculous to be able to train characters by injection more cheaply than by just training them.

*As I've said before several times.

PLEX was not added to make f2p possible but to battle RMT. The more ISK you get for a PLEX the more effective they are so it is no problem if the price of PLEX explodes.

SP extraction will however make this an almost real f2p option, since you can add gametime and then extract the accumulated SP for the ISK you need for your next PLEX. Not an option if you want to train your character, but for gank, mining, whatever alts who are only in need of a limited skill set. Since there is a lot of demand and almost zero effort to create such an alt, there will probably be a lot of them and PLEX prices will indeed explode.

So free to play for ISK farmers may probably go away and be replaced with free gank alts. I am happy with that, but it's still the most stupid change to this game ever and it will change it a lot.

Evil RatKid
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2016-01-30 16:33:04 UTC
Let's make some calculations.

-Now CCP gets 2 plexes (7000 aur, right?) for each character transfer.
-A character sold can be around 50m sp, I don't actually know the average but I assume that the order of magnitude is this one.
- Let's assume that 10m skillpoints of that 50m skillpoints are garbage.

This means that CCP earns 2 plexes for each ~40m useful skillpoint traded. (could be ~80m sp or ~20m sp , pehaps). Let's assume 10m sp traded to be conservative.

So, it makes 7000 aur = 10m sp (in the worst case).

Considering the skill extractor takes 500k sp, I assume the maximum acceptable aurum price for a skill extractor is 350 aur.
If it's more, it's a cash grab by CCP.