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Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

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bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#641 - 2016-02-02 20:48:31 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
also, from my observations from assisting hundreds of freighters , webbing only works if the freighter has no lateral movement, meaning it can be aligned correctly to a warp in/out, but all the bumper has to do to prevent warp is side swipe the freighter. so to say bring a webber and all will be well once the freighter is being bumped isnt quite true ....


Any yes, webs after you have been bumped are pointless. You use them before and not get bumped in the first place. Prevention is better than a cure and all that.


so, lets say for example a freighter pilot does the right thing, sets off with a corpy in a webber, as he's jumping thru after the webber , the webber d/c s,( a not uncommon occurence) a cloaky bumper decloaks and has at the freighter pilot . webber pilot logs back in, but it's now too late to do anything cos the bumpers bumping. freighter pilot now has the options that i listed earlier, logoff and die, self destruct, pay ransom and (v likely ) die, or wait for catas and die . if he's fortunate he won't have to wait too long, if he's not fortunate ...

now i find this a little on the harsh side , the guy did all the right things, but cos of bad luck he's just got to sit helplessly and be a giant 1 bil isk + space pinball till the gankers decide it's his turn to die, which potentially could be several hours .

mjd would at least give the pilot an option to try save himself . he manages to mjd to the webber pilot f.i who's positioned himself 100 km away ready to web him in the vital seconds he's gained before the bumper reacts . if he's got a 3 rd friend along in an inty , positioned well ahead of the freighter, then he's now got a chance to get a warp to him ...
bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#642 - 2016-02-02 20:54:12 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
As it has been pointed out so many times before, having a webber guarantees nothing as seen in this case (if you look at that char's kb, you'll find more similar cases). That BB died suicide tackling the bowhead, which died too after 43 minutes. So webs mean nothing really.



Nothing is guaranteed and that's part of what makes this game so great.


as was said earlier, once you're bumped you're pretty much guaranteed to die.... Roll
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#643 - 2016-02-02 20:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
as was said earlier, once you're bumped you're pretty much guaranteed to die.... Roll

Maybe you didn't read Serendipity's posts in the last couple of pages.

This one: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6314544#post6314544
This one: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6314995#post6314995

There is no guarantee of anything, for anyone.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#644 - 2016-02-02 21:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Also, how frequently is this happening? How common is 5-6 hours of bumping happening?

That's part of what I'm collecting data for at the moment.

It'll be a couple of weeks before I have sufficient data, but aiming for 95 +/- 1% confidence in the results.


Oh I know, but the fact that you have to do is suggestive that people are quite possibly pointing to what is basically and outlier an saying OMG this is horrible.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#645 - 2016-02-02 21:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
so, lets say for example a freighter pilot does the right thing, sets off with a corpy in a webber, as he's jumping thru after the webber , the webber d/c s,( a not uncommon occurence) a cloaky bumper decloaks and has at the freighter pilot .

What if the bumper disconnects?
What if the catalysts all disconnect?

Disconnects are a totally random and unfortunate part of the game we all face equally. Whole incursion fleets have died to sansha rats after disconnecting. People die regularly due to disconnects, both to rats and in pvp situations. No one gets special treatment because they disconnected.

I could post several lossmails I've had that resulted from disconnects if it was allowed here. It happens to everyone at some point.

The best the freighter pilot can hope for if he dies (just the same as anyone else in that position) is that it was a server issue and they can petition for a reimbursement.

However, in the absence of a server problem, that's just bad luck and part of the game.

There is no amount of mechanics changes that can plan around the possibility of a disconnect.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#646 - 2016-02-02 21:03:27 UTC
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
As it has been pointed out so many times before, having a webber guarantees nothing as seen in this case (if you look at that char's kb, you'll find more similar cases). That BB died suicide tackling the bowhead, which died too after 43 minutes. So webs mean nothing really.



Nothing is guaranteed and that's part of what makes this game so great.


as was said earlier, once you're bumped you're pretty much guaranteed to die.... Roll


And the people who said that, you included, are wrong.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#647 - 2016-02-02 21:11:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
As it has been pointed out so many times before, having a webber guarantees nothing as seen in this case (if you look at that char's kb, you'll find more similar cases). That BB died suicide tackling the bowhead, which died too after 43 minutes. So webs mean nothing really.



Nothing is guaranteed and that's part of what makes this game so great.


as was said earlier, once you're bumped you're pretty much guaranteed to die.... Roll


And the people who said that, you included, are wrong.


No kidding. Shoot the bumper, gank him. Yes you'll take sec hit and lose your ship(s) but it is feasible. As was suggested earlier a scram and webs on a T1 frigate could work too. You could slow him down until CONCORD arrives which could be long enough for the freighter to get away.

Oh and you'll be spawning CONCORD right there so either the gank fleet will need more DPS.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#648 - 2016-02-02 21:22:10 UTC
I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.

i've got another proposal, seeing how ganking just got a HUGE buff with the wreck hp boost, how about making shooting wrecks a suspect level offence rather than a criminal offence in hi-sec...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#649 - 2016-02-02 21:30:49 UTC
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
re the guy who asked to supply proof that being bumped for x amount of hours, while helpless in a giant space pinball costs subscribers, let's just call it an educated guess. i can't see the day that ccp will release a promo video extolling the virtues of the above to attract new players....

Educated by what exactly?

Because your guess isn't supported by any data that CCP have released over the last couple of years, so what's the basis for guessing that is the case? That it meets bias about things but isn't at all validated?


Also, how frequently is this happening? How common is 5-6 hours of bumping happening?

Another question is would people leave the game if bumping was deemed an exploit or heavily nerfed?

Funny how we never see that question in these threads?


if u re-read carefully what i posted, i said x amount of hours, hours being the operative word here. during my time in hsm, i and my fleet members observed the 'stacking ' of bumped freighters on many occasions, with multiple bumpers (6 or more) holding targets till the gank squad could get round to them, at slightly less than 4 ganks max per hour , taking down targets in order of value or vulnerabilty (ie no protective fleet near) , you do the maths . these gank sessions frequently went on for 6 hrs or more .

i am not asking for bumping to be deemed an exploit in my suggestion , or any kind of nerf .

i personally have observed 4-6 hour bumping sagas on at least 3 occasions. multiple hour bumps? too many to count .


So 4-6 is an outlier. We can conclude that it happens, but very, very rarely.

Now the next question is how many freighters pass through systems like Uedama on a daily basis. Getting an idea of traffic through ganking systems will give us an idea of the overall frequency of this problem.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#650 - 2016-02-02 21:32:12 UTC
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.


Just because no one bothered to do anything about it, doesn't mean nothing could have been done.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#651 - 2016-02-02 21:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.

No one is saying you've imagined anything.

If you are part of the antiganking community, then you immerse yourself in play around those things, so I'd be surprised if you didn't see those things.

That doesn't make it a problem that requires any change though. If you see something all the time, you are bound to be influenced by that. However a few pages back there was a recommendation to step back and look at the bigger picture.

That is a good recommendation for all of us. Take the blinkers off and look to see if this is really a problem, or if it's an isolated issue caused largely by the failing of freighter pilots as much as it is by bumpers.

Quote:
i've got another proposal, seeing how ganking just got a HUGE buff with the wreck hp boost, how about making shooting wrecks a suspect level offence rather than a criminal offence in hi-sec.

Hahaha.

So it's unfair that gankers can steal someone else's possessions, but it should be ok for antigankers to pop it with relative safety so the gank victim can never recover any of it under any circumstances?

Classic.

On the one hand, gankers/looters should be easy to shoot so they can't steal it, but you should be able to shoot it easily.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#652 - 2016-02-02 21:41:47 UTC
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.

i've got another proposal, seeing how ganking just got a HUGE buff with the wreck hp boost, how about making shooting wrecks a suspect level offence rather than a criminal offence in hi-sec...


Actually, what you witnessed is one of the characteristics about HS. Many players in HS are basically self-absorbed. That is HS players tend to work in smaller groups, or even alone. And they are more inclined to not help others. When I’m online and at my PC when somebody in my corp/alliance/coalition screams for help I go help (within reason, if a guy screams for help way down in the ass end of Pure Blind and I’m way up at the top of Branch, I can’t do much). But in HS? No…not really. People will fly by a guy getting bumped and go merrily on their way. To be sure this isn’t true of everyone, but largely that is the case.

Further, those who might help will only do so up to a point. Their willingness to incur a cost to help out some guy getting bumped is quite limited. Logistics? Okay, sure. Try to bump the bumper? Alright. But gank the bumper? What? No way! CONCORD will blow up my ship. Somebody will have a kill right against me. That is, apparently asking way to much.

However for those who gank, no big deal. Fine, CONCORD blows up my ship. Sure I’ll have kill rights, I am still going to gank that freighter though. Ganking groups are quite willing to go to greater lengths to accomplish their goals than most other players in HS.

So yeah, I bet you did see freighter’s getting bumped. But part of the problem is that the typical resident of HS not only won’t go as far as a member of a ganking group…most of the time he won’t even give a ****.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#653 - 2016-02-02 21:45:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.


Just because no one bothered to do anything about it, doesn't mean nothing could have been done.


An accurate statement would be:

"I've seen freighters getting bumped for hours, I could have done something, but I didn't."

Some white knight. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#654 - 2016-02-02 21:49:06 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.

No one is saying you've imagined anything.


Quote:
i've got another proposal, seeing how ganking just got a HUGE buff with the wreck hp boost, how about making shooting wrecks a suspect level offence rather than a criminal offence in hi-sec.

Hahaha.

So you think it is unfair that gankers can steal someone else's possessions, but it should be ok for antigankers to pop it so the gank victim can never recover any of it under any circumstances?

Classic.

On the one hand, gankers/looters should be easy to shoot so they can't steal it, but you should be able to shoot it easily.


with a 15000 hp wreck which i believe is the proposed number i don't see how popping it will be easy ..

please, where have i stated that it's unfair that gankers can steal loot? popping wrecks was an effective tool for ag to deprive crims of their ill gotten gains, taking that away is a HUGE buff for gankers, whatever way you try to spin it. wrecks now are pretty much guaranteed (hmm , that word again Lol ) to survive for looting in hisec , unless you're going to suggest that ag pull concord + waste 2 nados b4 wreck gets looted.... QuestionTwistedPirateBig smile
bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#655 - 2016-02-02 21:52:42 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.


Just because no one bothered to do anything about it, doesn't mean nothing could have been done.


An accurate statement would be:

"I've seen freighters getting bumped for hours, I could have done something, but I didn't."

Some white knight. Roll


you're ASSuming that all the hsm and ag fleets do is sit and observe freighters getting bumped here aren't you? Bear
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#656 - 2016-02-02 21:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
please, where have i stated that it's unfair that gankers can steal loot?

Go and look at the posts in this thread about the problem of looting.

Not necessarily you specifically. Using you in the collective sense of antigankers in general. My poor wording there. It could have been clearer what I meant with different phrasing.

That the wreck can be looted with an alt and the DST/Freighter remains unflagged, or that the catalysts loot the wreck before being CONCORDed is part of what this whole thread is about.

Wanting to have no consequence for shooting the gankers/bumpers/looters, but wanting them to have additional consequences above what the mechanics currently involve.

15K HP with 0 resists is not that difficult to chew through. The gankers kill ships with 500K HP and resists in 7-15 seconds odd.

Just bite the bullet and shoot the wreck if that is the desired course of action.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#657 - 2016-02-02 21:56:54 UTC
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.


Just because no one bothered to do anything about it, doesn't mean nothing could have been done.


An accurate statement would be:

"I've seen freighters getting bumped for hours, I could have done something, but I didn't."

Some white knight. Roll


you're ASSuming that all the hsm and ag fleets do is sit and observe freighters getting bumped here aren't you? Bear


No, I'm assuming you simply won't gank the bumping ship. And in that assumption I feel pretty confident.

In fact, you guys might actually be prolonging the freighter pilots time spent being bumped.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#658 - 2016-02-02 21:58:32 UTC
btw, has anyone here got a link to a thread discussing the pros and cons off increasing wreck hps ?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#659 - 2016-02-02 21:58:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
I'm sorry, i must have been imagining all those nights in uedama where codes bumpers just stacked up bumped freighters for the slaughter for hours at a time i guess.

No one is saying you've imagined anything.


Quote:
i've got another proposal, seeing how ganking just got a HUGE buff with the wreck hp boost, how about making shooting wrecks a suspect level offence rather than a criminal offence in hi-sec.

Hahaha.

So you think it is unfair that gankers can steal someone else's possessions, but it should be ok for antigankers to pop it so the gank victim can never recover any of it under any circumstances?

Classic.

On the one hand, gankers/looters should be easy to shoot so they can't steal it, but you should be able to shoot it easily.


with a 15000 hp wreck which i believe is the proposed number i don't see how popping it will be easy ..

please, where have i stated that it's unfair that gankers can steal loot? popping wrecks was an effective tool for ag to deprive crims of their ill gotten gains, taking that away is a HUGE buff for gankers, whatever way you try to spin it. wrecks now are pretty much guaranteed (hmm , that word again Lol ) to survive for looting in hisec , unless you're going to suggest that ag pull concord + waste 2 nados b4 wreck gets looted.... QuestionTwistedPirateBig smile


If only you'd wasted those tornadoes on the bumping ship there would be no wreck.

Edit:

Translation of that second paragraph:

I never said it was unfair to increase a wreck's HP, but let me tell you why it is unfair. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#660 - 2016-02-02 22:00:44 UTC
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
btw, has anyone here got a link to a thread discussing the pros and cons off increasing wreck hps ?

The original F&I thread is here on the front page of this forum:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=431120&find=unread

The Upcoming Features thread is stickied in the CCP forum:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=467351&find=unread