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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

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CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#101 - 2015-11-05 09:12:15 UTC
Zacoya wrote:
Aaril wrote:
While the interface for probing is being looked at, is there any chance of signature storage being added?

Even with "legacy code", there has to be some workaround. This seems like it could be through a signature database that kept track of the pilots who had scanned it, or the use of personal bookmarks in the background. I am just throwing things out there, but this really should be added. It makes no sense that signatures are forgotten.


For explorers, it would be a big quality-of-life improvement not to lose this information across jumps. (And while you're at it, remember the best hit instead of the most recent hit.)


I totally appreciate that, but it's just not technically feasible for us in the time we have.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#102 - 2015-11-05 09:13:48 UTC
Kynric wrote:
Two new pain points appeared yeaterday:

1. To conserve screen space I generally stack my dscan and probe window so that they are tabs on the same bit of real estate. With yesterdays change I noticed that when the dscan window os on top and I jump systems the probe window becomes the active tab which is anoying because my desire is to see dacan results rather than anomolies and sigs.

2. The check box that specified if filters are to be ised or if all is to be shown on the dscan is no longer present. I know I can get the same functionality but it now takes more time/button clicks. That button was very valuable to me, please consider restoring it to the UI. My habit is to narrow the angle and then click it so that I see everything as that provides a valuable picture. It is the differ3nce between a ship at a celestial and one that is not as well as the difference between a ship at a forcefield and one in space with drones out and a movile tractor.


1. This one is a legacy issue and it seems to have either gotten worse or been more noticeable in this update. I've requested a fix.

2. Many have brought this up - we'll put it back :)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#103 - 2015-11-05 09:15:00 UTC
Hiljah wrote:
Hi Goliath,
Thanks for the patience. Is there a way to turn the arrows on the cursor off? I'm sure other people might want just the arrows, but I only ever click on them accidentally.

Thank you,
Hiljah


Not that I know of, sorry! Sad

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#104 - 2015-11-05 09:17:30 UTC
Styphon the Black wrote:
The Probe Scanner is suck! Seriously do you even play EVE? Because with releases like this and the new map it is like you have no clue how players interface with the game and what the term "USER FRIENDLY" means.

I had to turn it off after getting frustracted with it after about my 10 system scanning with the new probe scanner. I really can't give feedback on the new DScan because you have the two locked together on either using them or not. I would like to see an option to use the new DScan but opt out of the new Probe Scanner Interface.

Basically the probe window is completely intrusive and sets overtop everything else blocking important other windows like local and the overview. If you resize it down to a manageable size you can no longer see enough of the system you are attempting to scan.

Atop that I could create a list 20 lines long about how the new scanner isn't designed correctly but I really don't care anymore because I see it as a complete fail and will not be using it.

When you design a change to something like a probe scan or DScan you need to understand that they "player" is going to use either the easiest or most effective method (ie, less time consuming method) for locating their target. So if you design a system that is actually takes longer and is more difficult to use obviously the player is not going to use the new "upgrade".


Not only do I play, I play most days of the week, and I live in a wormhole and scanning takes up about 75% of my play time. The probe window you are referring to I assume is actually the Solar System map? In fullscreen mode it sits behind the overview and chat (and other windows) and we're about to fix it so that it shows the HUD too. I believe the blog details how deeply we involved players in our testing and developing of the feature, and still are.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#105 - 2015-11-05 09:21:00 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Bracket hitboxes are still huge and make it difficult to grab the sides of the scanning cube when it's on top of a celestial or sig bracket.
Glitches and Stuttering/low FPS when there is a lot of bookmarks.
Bookmark texts persists sometimes, after the mouse no longer hover over the balloon.



Layering (your first concern) is going to get another pass. I've heard some performance complaints and would ask you to submit a bug report from within the client so that we get your settings, specs, etc. That will greatly help us with optimization efforts. The persistent text - is it part of a stack of more than 1 object? If so, that's by design.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#106 - 2015-11-05 09:23:19 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
....

I hope these changes show you effectively that we are committed to iteration and we still want your constructive, well explained feedback - so let's have it! Big smile

Hi Goliath. I think you have covered most of it there already. I would also suggest tidying up the icons in general on the solar system map, such as for asteroid belts, planets, etc.

Also please remove those huge red arrows when resizing probes as they look out of place.

Finally you really need to watch these excellent videos which illustrate the main issues far better than I am able to put in words.

Shade Millith wrote:
Click and drag on the blue sphere to resize probes is not working properly, and often flat out doesn't.
Old System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPohxMoYTI
New System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQHtKE95VeE

Planet/Gate/Moon/Station icons still take preference over the icon for moving the probes. Leading to attempts to move the probes to fail. This is especially bad with the new system, because the new Planet/Gate/Moon/Station icons have a much larger hitbox than their graphic would suggest.
Old System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKbZkLXPniw
New System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmfh4i3hty8

When selecting a gate or planet/moon on your overview, or in space, the old system selected the object in the map as well. This let you quickly identify and orientate yourself while combat probing, and knowing where to put the probes on the map. Especially useful for quickly placing probes on where a hostile warped to.
Old System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyCGElce_nw
New System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEujqHHi6N0

These are three BIG issues I ran into while running prober for a gang, and caused me to take a lot longer to get probes on target than the previous probe system.

Of smaller note, it's much harder to see Red results in space, with the icon being silly small and dark. Especially amongst the red sphere of D-Scan.



Thanks for the videos, super useful stuff. Where did that post come from btw? Did I just miss it in one of the threads? When you say "tidying up" icons, what do you mean exactly?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
TheRealRickRoss
Diazepam Industries
#107 - 2015-11-05 09:25:25 UTC
After hating the new scanners/map at first I'm getting the hang of them, but there's a few annoyances, maybe already mentioned in this thread.

1) The new red sphere on the map showing your D-scan range is awesome, but maybe blue or something would be better. It's way to similar to the sigs and makes it confusing a lot of the time.
2) Another colour issue, sigs (once you get them probed down to a red circle or further) are way to dark.
3) The arrows for moving the probes are too small.
4) After scanning something down and ignoring it, all the other sigs used to appear on the map again, this no longer happens and it sucks tbh.

So yea mostly UI issues there, and don't get me wrong I do love the new systems and appreciate the work gone into it.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#108 - 2015-11-05 09:26:27 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
To make sure this is not overlooked ... the new dscan does not automatically update the results when changing angle and range without scanning again. The current dscan does this auto-update, which significantly speeds up finding targets. So is this a unnoticed regression/bug or a planned nerf?

... also the option to toggle dscan lock should IMO be in the dscan window and not be part of the map controls, you need that option very often, so a hotkey would be handy.

But in general I prefer mouse control for scanning/flying, and the fewer clicks and shorter mouse path the better ... that's also why I'm not a friend of having the dscan button moved to the left. For you it may look cosmetic but for me it is a regression, because there is no equally convenient setup. Also on the top of my screen there are the collapsed chat windows, so I can't reach the map controls easily without moving the windows away ... small things maybe, but they add up to make the interface less usable.


It autoupdates for me? That's quite interesting. Could you submit a bug report following replicating the bug so I can see some logs please?

Not sure where toggle will end up at this time. We might try putting it in a few different places and see which one gets clicked most :P

I find the latter point interesting too - a few people have asked for the map controls to be "popout" when the map goes into fullscreen - what do people think about that?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#109 - 2015-11-05 09:27:37 UTC
Mixu Paatelainen wrote:
I like the new dscan, but I dislike probe functionality on the beta map. My issue is if I want to use the new dscan, I don't appear to be able to probe with the old map, as there are no spheres around my probes, and ctrl/alt doesn't show up anything. Working as intended?


Working as intended. We aren't mixing and matching, sorry. Sweet name btw, 'mon the Terrors!

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#110 - 2015-11-05 09:40:14 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
For the Probe Results window, can we have some way to quickly refresh the signatures - either automatically, or via a toggle or button?

Whenever you 100% scan down signatures, or are viewing the anomalies, the ranges are based on your current location. If you warp away, they don't update automatically. In the past, I would toggle "Show Anomalies" on and off quickly to force a refresh. This helps me see which wormhole I am closest to warp to, or if I am on grid. I usually order by range so I can ignore signatures as I land on them and bookmark and map on Siggy/Tripwire.

Because there is no "Show Anomalies" toggle anymore, we have to click into the filter list and then click on/off Anomalies to force a refresh. This doubles the clicks needed to refresh. I know I could use the mapped hotkeys to adjust the filter, but that only works if I'm focused on the probe window.

Could we get a "Refresh Results" button, or have some way for the anomaly/signature results to automatically refresh range when we warp or come out of warp?


The window refreshes in a really weird way. I will be talking to Colgate about it though, since quite a few have mentioned it. It probably won't autorefresh like the overview, but I'm sure we can do something.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#111 - 2015-11-05 09:41:17 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Nah, I was leaving 10+ seconds between scans while testing this.

edit: nvm, I see what you're saying now. I'm pretty sure the sliders on the old interface do trigger a scan, though.


Yup, they do

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#112 - 2015-11-05 09:45:05 UTC
Canon Makanen wrote:
There are a few things that make my want to use the old probe UI rather than the new one:

1) Really lag, the old probe window and solar map is much smoother.

2) it is hard to drag the probe and move it, the new prober UI this will make me miss my target even just a few second delay.

3) Hard to identify the results i just have scanned and dev has already known that, I think it will be fixed soon though

4) In full screen mode the modules disappear, which will also be fixed soon

5) the "Scan result" window is not as clear as the old one, just make the letters larger maybe



i) for the new map, still, hard to see which one is station and moon, please just make different color for the station and the directional scan help line

the shortcuts are sweet, and make this UI smooth to use.


1. If you're having performance issues, please submit an in-client bug report (F12) so we can get your specs and settings.

2. Clicks not registering? I have a vague theory this is related to performance too.

3. Not in this release, but we'll be taking a look at colors and lines in the next release period.

4. Yeah that fix is working nicely and should be out next Tuesday

5. In D-scan or Probe Window? Could be a background color issue - that's also getting fixed.

i. You mean icon-wise?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#113 - 2015-11-05 09:46:47 UTC
Blacktide Bakersmith wrote:
Changing my tune.

After playing with the new scanning for a day, and figuring out how to turn off most of the annoying tooltips, especially the probes that prevented me from being able to easily move the probe formation around, I am now liking the new scanning setup. The ease of use is better, and the shortcuts help.

There is definitely room for improvement though. Beginning with making the D-scan perimeter display less intrusive, or a different color so it doesn't distract from my probing.

And once again, I've got to say, that the destroy active probes button needs to be removed or relocated. Its in a very bad place. I use the button to activate the map all the time, and having it right next to a commonly used button seems like you're asking for trouble. Do we really need that button?


Yeah we kinda went "out of the frying pan into the fire" with that button placement. We were so focused on getting the Recall probes button far away from "Analyze". I actually don't know what the use case of that button is. Answers on a postcard!

We'll be taking a look at colors most likely in the next release.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Adan Natrier
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#114 - 2015-11-05 10:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Adan Natrier
No postcard.

I will offer a roleplay narrative of a cowardly low sec gate camp pirate.

Much like any ~elite pvp~ player, anything that looks like an actual fight should be avoided. Killing newbies is the best way to pad killboards, preferably by listing skillbooks one jump out of high sec near to a mission system as incidental bait. With alt scouts every side (paid for from scamming, blending kittens on youtube videos for plex, or whatever), hiding just off grid of the high sec gate, so that even if someone has a friend to scout for them in a frigate (as if), they won't report anything as they go through. After all, newbies (or high sec players in general) don't know how to use dscan or much of anything at all. They did not have to dscan pretty much every structure in nullsec and paste its result into some data vampire spreadsheet. Several times.

Anyway, this really can't be caught by surprise. After all, if you can dscan, and that shows combats on it, so even though there are times of being lazy and using the same spots pretty often, you'll never not see those combats coming.

It'd be terrible if someone preplaced them, like a trap; launched and > 2094370180km from any celestials, while dscanning the gate themselves from marginally under that. With those combats preplaced, around the gate and ready to run. And then immediately selfdestructed them. Yes. That might just be fast enough they'd never show.

Thank god they can't do that. Or even have the choice leave them behind, deliberately in space and in a specific position (to catch them at that perch they always run to, to check for a bubble when they're being chased) and to reconnect to later, after going to another system because they're *forced* to recall them on jump, and tediously reposition them when or if they come back. Yes, I'm so glad all the probing changes were sourced from asking pve players for feedback running silly sites. It's not like speed is everything, in combat probing.

Got to go. There's a badger coming.
Lara Sunji
Doomheim
#115 - 2015-11-05 10:28:25 UTC
Will the color ever look the same like the rest of my ui? It's really distracting looking at a black box.
http://s20.postimg.org/imde3l81p/hmm.jpg Pin enabled as well.
TheRealRickRoss
Diazepam Industries
#116 - 2015-11-05 10:40:05 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:


It autoupdates for me? That's quite interesting. Could you submit a bug report following replicating the bug so I can see some logs please?

Not sure where toggle will end up at this time. We might try putting it in a few different places and see which one gets clicked most :P

I find the latter point interesting too - a few people have asked for the map controls to be "popout" when the map goes into fullscreen - what do people think about that?



I find it sometimes auto-updates and sometimes not. I think maybe the times it doesn't is because you're changing range too fast (2 seconds) and it's a bug not telling you?
Adan Natrier
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#117 - 2015-11-05 10:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Adan Natrier
And incidentally, (my) probe filters don't/didn't work against results as of 2015/11/04 i.e. couldn't filter out pos clutter. How about making it use overview filters that I can manage, and export rather than a completely different system.

I prefer the full colour green bar for results rather than the line.
-

Much positive feedback for the keybind for dscan/analyse; how about make it a single keybind for both (if they're both open, make it run both). Come on, you crossed the rubicon already. Just hand it over. There's only one key left of F1, which is of course the only other button I press. Three buttons is too much to remember.

No particular feedback on dscan UI. The changed position of the button is fine if i'm not having to click it. Dscan development realistically peaked when the tracking camera was added (I assume you're not going to add partial alpha coloured filters to the space background, that cover the area when offgrid hits are indicated, to facilitate visual successive approximation. It'd reset when you changed grid. No? didn't think so.).

Perhaps allow multiple simultaneous dscan windows - for example (if you wanted use cases), one which is 1au 360 degree unfiltered scan, one a for 5 degree 14.3au against a ships overview. Even if both can't run at once, it's of irritation to swap between (and perhaps it's supposed to be) two configs frequently.
TheRealRickRoss
Diazepam Industries
#118 - 2015-11-05 11:01:57 UTC
Adan Natrier wrote:


Perhaps allow multiple simultaneous dscan windows - for example (if you wanted use cases), one which is 1au 360 degree unfiltered scan, one a for 5 degree 14.3au against a ships overview. Even if both can't run at once, it's of irritation to swap between (and perhaps it's supposed to be) two configs frequently.


Nice idea. And like you after I realised there was a d-scan hot key I stopped constantly opening the map by accident.
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#119 - 2015-11-05 11:03:39 UTC
Guess I will report my suggestions that seemed to get ignored on the other thread.

It's way more clunky to turn anomalies on and off. Give us a check box for that filter and possibly signatures that isn't in that dropdown.

Remove the word Cosmic from anomalies and signatures, it is just wasting space in the name column of the scanning window.

The title bar menu for the map in fullscreen should be made moveable.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#120 - 2015-11-05 11:04:52 UTC
SGNL wrote:
Forgive me if this has already been asked. What is the point of the transparent red orb in the new scanner module, is it for point of view or something? Can it be disabled? It's very intrusive.


It's a visual representation of the Directional Scanner. It can be disabled currently by closing the Directional Scanner, but we are adding a toggle to have D-scan open and not display the visual representation.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath