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Dev blog: Building your Citadel, one block at a time

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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#321 - 2015-10-28 15:48:18 UTC
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
With reguard to the weapons for the citadels....

AOE weapons were mentioned...

This will cause issues in high sec, can i assume they will be unuseable in high sec?? (ie 3rd party neutrals getting caught up in the area of effect, and concord follow on reaction)



Nope, not allowed in high sec

Citadel weapon safety set to permanent green
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#322 - 2015-10-28 16:01:19 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Actually, we need to discuss L citadel volumes a bit more - CCP Nullarbor made good points about extra annoyance in C2-C4s. So for now, we don't exactly know if they'll fit in Orcas or not. I'll edit my previous answer, sorry for the confusion.


Its pretty simple, and we have some options for how to go about it.

By the currently discussed mechanics you won't be able to build a L in a wormhole because its too big to fit into any of the component arrays. If you increase the volume so you can't buy them in HS and haul them in with an orca, then it'll be practically impossible to build one. The only way would be:

Build medium>build large and freighter in medium> deploy large.

That's quite a lot of hassle. If you're trying to say without saying that you don't want Ls in low-class wormholes then I urge you to seriously rethink that position. Some of us have quite a lot of capitals in our home holes and have been building up capital fleets in them for a long time. With mediums unable to have them dock (thus unable to build them inside mediums), you're essentially saying that you can't build capitals in low class space anymore and the only way to have them will be if they're grandfathered in. That's a pretty terrible turd to dump onto us low class wormholers.

No, assuming that's unintended and you want us to be able to have larges in our wormholes with some effort, then there's a few solutions.

1) Introduce a temporary construction array at a tower that is large enough to build one at a tower. Still have to build a freighter in-system, which is a pain, but it gives us the option.

2) Keep them their current size, let us haul them in with orcas.

3) Scrap the 'drop them into space fully finished' idea and use gantries like POCOs have. This also allows you to address another point, which is that there's no fast counterplay to someone dropping a citadel in your system (and this applies everywhere). If you have a gantry and have to shovel resources into it, and it doesn't become invulnerable until the gantry is fully loaded, then it gives the vigilant and watchful a chance to take out a fetal citadel before it becomes invulnerable and force us to take a week ripping it down. I see this as a good thing as it rewards players proactively defending their space and means that you can't just drop a citadel and run, you actually have to defend it at least for a little bit while its being loaded with parts.

I think #3 is my favourite of the options since it opens up other gameplay opportunities and deals with the whole 'drop it and its there' thing which would make it much harder to defend space against a hostile force.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
blue dehazon
Stonegard Arrows
#323 - 2015-10-28 16:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: blue dehazon
Death to smal industrial corps,and new investment to hige, and new industrial players will have only 1 option join a corp alliance with citadels,if not it will take them years befor they kan kompite with citadels owners anywher in space on marked price,basicly this new system will favor old players to sutch a degree that you migth anonse that in the future industry is no longer an activety you shud prusue as a solo player or in a smal corp,this game just continue to mowe further and further away from the sandbox ide that so many like to think this game is.Shocked
Munseventy
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#324 - 2015-10-28 16:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Munseventy
Saede Riordan wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Actually, we need to discuss L citadel volumes a bit more - CCP Nullarbor made good points about extra annoyance in C2-C4s. So for now, we don't exactly know if they'll fit in Orcas or not. I'll edit my previous answer, sorry for the confusion.


Its pretty simple, and we have some options for how to go about it.

By the currently discussed mechanics you won't be able to build a L in a wormhole because its too big to fit into any of the component arrays. If you increase the volume so you can't buy them in HS and haul them in with an orca, then it'll be practically impossible to build one. The only way would be:

Build medium>build large and freighter in medium> deploy large.

That's quite a lot of hassle. If you're trying to say without saying that you don't want Ls in low-class wormholes then I urge you to seriously rethink that position. Some of us have quite a lot of capitals in our home holes and have been building up capital fleets in them for a long time. With mediums unable to have them dock (thus unable to build them inside mediums), you're essentially saying that you can't build capitals in low class space anymore and the only way to have them will be if they're grandfathered in. That's a pretty terrible turd to dump onto us low class wormholers.

No, assuming that's unintended and you want us to be able to have larges in our wormholes with some effort, then there's a few solutions.

1) Introduce a temporary construction array at a tower that is large enough to build one at a tower. Still have to build a freighter in-system, which is a pain, but it gives us the option.

2) Keep them their current size, let us haul them in with orcas.

3) Scrap the 'drop them into space fully finished' idea and use gantries like POCOs have. This also allows you to address another point, which is that there's no fast counterplay to someone dropping a citadel in your system (and this applies everywhere). If you have a gantry and have to shovel resources into it, and it doesn't become invulnerable until the gantry is fully loaded, then it gives the vigilant and watchful a chance to take out a fetal citadel before it becomes invulnerable and force us to take a week ripping it down. I see this as a good thing as it rewards players proactively defending their space and means that you can't just drop a citadel and run, you actually have to defend it at least for a little bit while its being loaded with parts.

I think #3 is my favourite of the options since it opens up other gameplay opportunities and deals with the whole 'drop it and its there' thing which would make it much harder to defend space against a hostile force.


#2 not going to work for c1 and yes there are c1 with alot of cap fleet in them. i do like option 1 building a freighter no problem. i thank most c1-c4 crop wouldn't have a problem building freighter. if we can just build the L citadel in the WH
Michal Jita
Lords Of The Universe
#325 - 2015-10-28 16:35:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:



Moon coverage may be replaced with a module that prevents corporation / alliances other than your own to deploy structures but that most likely won't be coming in the first Citadel batch.

Since Citadels will have infinite cargo holds it'll be much easier to give your members more ships to play with in their personal hangars. Sharing corporation hangar access is done at your own risk, like everywhere else in New Eden.

EDIT: removed the mention to L citadel volume, this needs to be discussed more, please refer to this post.


Ok, I have kept quiet for a while but I can see this going now very, very bad for my corporations and the likes.

Just to shed some light on current POS/Starbase:

Each corporation has got pottential for 21 defined corp hangers (3 levels of access - corporation, fuel technician, starbase config and 7 configurable hangers) each of these 21 configured separetly, this is going to be limited to 7 as I understand?

Each POS has got 3 levels of SMA with corp access, fuel technician access and starbase access these are going to be merged into corp hangers and/or personal level SMA as I understand.

You encourage each individual to have their own ships and personal assets and only the individual being able to access these but at the same time you expect a citadel in WH to be down within 48 hours. So each and every plyer needs to login every day in case we are under attack, this is just not always possible!

In effect if we get attaced and any of the players won't get online we won't be able to save any of their asstes to either K-space or second citadel.

Can we please get you to rethink the asset safety in WH as with current proposal any small corporations will be literally farmed by larger entities as they will have a gurantee of a decent loot/kill mail.
This proposal is so far in favour of larger entities I just don't understand how it come through any design stage.

I understand WH should be more dangerous, but accroding to you, unless we are able do field a decent size defensive fleet there is no room for us in WH, is this realy the direction we are heading?

As a minimum remedy can we get CEO of the corporation being able to move stuff between hangers? this is not an outpost or a station so can't see that being a problem for you to allow, even better if directors could do it, even better if you could rework the asset safety mechanic as this is just bad, gurantee piniata on any even active Citadel is bad design.

Thank you
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#326 - 2015-10-28 16:54:20 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
probag Bear wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
The quantities of T2 salvage required for an XL rig are absolutely batshit insane. There is not enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build more than a couple of any of these. The price of T2 salvage will go so high no one will ever be able to afford T2 rigs for anything ever again.


For everything except Enhanced Ward Consoles (and arguably Intact Shield Emitters), there is more than enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build thousands of these.


http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=25616#supply

nope. 450k required for XL-sized rig. 772k available on market. Can build exactly 1. In the entire universe.


450k required for XL-sized rig, 772k available on the market, at least ~90k despawning, unlooted from their containers, each day. Much like how the number of Data Sheets available in Jita is practically zero compared to the number that was available back when they were actually heavily used for invention, even though their supply hasn't changed a bit.
Sarah Saoirse
Doomheim
#327 - 2015-10-28 18:26:08 UTC
blue dehazon wrote:
Death to smal industrial corps,and new investment to hige, and new industrial players will have only 1 option join a corp alliance with citadels,if not it will take them years befor they kan kompite with citadels owners anywher in space on marked price,basicly this new system will favor old players to sutch a degree that you migth anonse that in the future industry is no longer an activety you shud prusue as a solo player or in a smal corp,this game just continue to mowe further and further away from the sandbox ide that so many like to think this game is.Shocked


The cost of citadels are expected to be well within the reach of any reasonably active corporation, and for that matter within the reach of, any player wealthy enough to be competitive industrially so I'm perfectly fine with this, as it strongly encourages corporations and their members to have assets that are at some degree of risk which restores meaning to the highsec war declaration system, and for the first tome, makes NPC corps especially unattractive to industrialists. Every single activity in EVE is directly or indirectly a player vs player activity. You shouldn't get to enjoy rewards without risk.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#328 - 2015-10-28 18:33:53 UTC
Michal Jita wrote:


Ok, I have kept quiet for a while but I can see this going now very, very bad for my corporations and the likes.

Just to shed some light on current POS/Starbase:

Each corporation has got pottential for 21 defined corp hangers (3 levels of access - corporation, fuel technician, starbase config and 7 configurable hangers) each of these 21 configured separetly, this is going to be limited to 7 as I understand?

Each POS has got 3 levels of SMA with corp access, fuel technician access and starbase access these are going to be merged into corp hangers and/or personal level SMA as I understand.

You encourage each individual to have their own ships and personal assets and only the individual being able to access these but at the same time you expect a citadel in WH to be down within 48 hours. So each and every plyer needs to login every day in case we are under attack, this is just not always possible!


Your structure is only vulnerable 3 or 6 hours (Medium or Large) a week. You do not have to log on every day, only during your vulnerable windows and even then, not during the first attack as you really only need to be there to defend the second timer.

This is marked improvement over a POS. While the POS does attack, anyone with an ounce of planning can outsmart your POS defenses and attack your tower at any time putting it into reinforcement and then wait/return 42 hours later to finish the job.

There is not added pressure on small corps, only absentee corps that cannot commit to three or six hours a week of activity to defend their space.
FOl2TY8
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2015-10-28 19:01:16 UTC
blue dehazon wrote:
Death to smal industrial corps,and new investment to hige, and new industrial players will have only 1 option join a corp alliance with citadels,if not it will take them years befor they kan kompite with citadels owners anywher in space on marked price,basicly this new system will favor old players to sutch a degree that you migth anonse that in the future industry is no longer an activety you shud prusue as a solo player or in a smal corp,this game just continue to mowe further and further away from the sandbox ide that so many like to think this game is.Shocked


this guy gets it
Zechariah Bragg
Jaded.
Riplomacy
#330 - 2015-10-28 19:15:37 UTC
blue dehazon wrote:
Death to smal industrial corps,and new investment to hige, and new industrial players will have only 1 option join a corp alliance with citadels,if not it will take them years befor they kan kompite with citadels owners anywher in space on marked price,basicly this new system will favor old players to sutch a degree that you migth anonse that in the future industry is no longer an activety you shud prusue as a solo player or in a smal corp,this game just continue to mowe further and further away from the sandbox ide that so many like to think this game is.Shocked




Agreed. Many of us in low class whspace are just stunned by the lack of thought in to this matter. Many of us think this has become a more linear approach for eve online and not so much for the sandbox genre we all love.

If you don't live in W-Space.....your opinions are invalid.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#331 - 2015-10-28 19:56:31 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Sabastian Cerabiam wrote:
I wana know whats gona happen with those of us that have POS bpos. Will they get converted to equivalent citadel ones or will we somehow get reimbursed the isk we spent to buy them?

When we get rid of Starbases they will be reimbursed, not converted.

Please do a fair reimbursement.

All my structure BPOs have been researched to ME:10 TE:20. The last level taking a better part of a year, and a cost of several hundred million. They shouldn't be valued at NPC cost!
drunklies
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2015-10-28 20:30:46 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Sabastian Cerabiam wrote:
I wana know whats gona happen with those of us that have POS bpos. Will they get converted to equivalent citadel ones or will we somehow get reimbursed the isk we spent to buy them?

When we get rid of Starbases they will be reimbursed, not converted.

Please do a fair reimbursement.

All my structure BPOs have been researched to ME:10 TE:20. The last level taking a better part of a year, and a cost of several hundred million. They shouldn't be valued at NPC cost!


CCP's line before has been that you have gained the advantage you desired from that research, and as such is not their responsibility to reimburse you. I.e. your stuck at market price.
Darkstar01
Doomheim
#333 - 2015-10-28 20:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkstar01
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ytterbium, much like the industry changes a while back I have big concerns with how you guys are handling the new rigs. I really think you guys need to go back to the drawing board on that one.

You have a golden opportunity here to create a new market instead of trashing an old one.

What you should be doing is creating new rig materials that can only be found in null sec. This gives null sec an extra income base without actually giving them an isk printing machine. They've been hollering for more opportunities to level the playing field between hi-sec and this is the one chance you have to make them happy without creating an isk faucet. Please for the love of common sense do not tie t2 salvage to structure rigs in any way.


Nope, I think it's perfect that the new Citadels use the existing salvage system. Because in the current game, some salvages are worthless and never used, while other salvages are expensive and used very often.

The new Citadels will mainly be using the salvages that are currently worthless and never used - this has the effect of balancing the salvage system, so that all salvages will have a purpose - whether it's obtained in hisec or nullsec.

I'm sure they can also tweak the drop rates, so that nullsec drops expensive salvage more often than highsec. Or almost all of the expensive salvage is dropped in nullsec.

It would also make the game more accessible to new players, because it boosts the overall salvage income.
blue dehazon
Stonegard Arrows
#334 - 2015-10-28 21:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: blue dehazon
Sarah Saoirse wrote:
blue dehazon wrote:
Death to smal industrial corps,and new investment to hige, and new industrial players will have only 1 option join a corp alliance with citadels,if not it will take them years befor they kan kompite with citadels owners anywher in space on marked price,basicly this new system will favor old players to sutch a degree that you migth anonse that in the future industry is no longer an activety you shud prusue as a solo player or in a smal corp,this game just continue to mowe further and further away from the sandbox ide that so many like to think this game is.Shocked


The cost of citadels are expected to be well within the reach of any reasonably active corporation, and for that matter within the reach of, any player wealthy enough to be competitive industrially so I'm perfectly fine with this, as it strongly encourages corporations and their members to have assets that are at some degree of risk which restores meaning to the highsec war declaration system, and for the first tome, makes NPC corps especially unattractive to industrialists. Every single activity in EVE is directly or indirectly a player vs player activity. You shouldn't get to enjoy rewards without risk.

I kant see that i made a point of the risk factore but your rigth in 1 thing ther shud be som risk with higer bonus,but that only somwat make what i stated iven somwhat more walid,you shud not fly what you kant aford to lose the same aplay for citadels.(singel player-smal corperations)New players.Im not against player corperations this is just an alt,im living hapely in a corp alliance,and will encorage all players to join a player corp,Iven so i think i have a valid point.
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#335 - 2015-10-28 21:26:37 UTC
I have got a question I would like to get answer for:
Lets say for example I focus on building HACs in my POS. I really like the idea of Citadels and everything, but so far what I get is:

1] Old structures like POSs are being replaced by new structures
2] First of those new structures are citadels, which will be released in spring and which will be able to do pretty much everything - limited by basically just the modules and rigs you put on them
3] On a later date, more structures will be released, like assembly arrays, which will be probably more suited for manufacturing, but I have never seen anything more specific

...the final question: Should I start preparing for release of Citadels and start using one, or just wait for the new Assembly arrays? What are the differences? What can help me to make the decision? I dont want to invest into Citadel just to find it useless within few months after release of other structures.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#336 - 2015-10-28 21:29:05 UTC
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
I have got a question I would like to get answer for:
Lets say for example I focus on building HACs in my POS. I really like the idea of Citadels and everything, but so far what I get is:

1] Old structures like POSs are being replaced by new structures
2] First of those new structures are citadels, which will be released in spring and which will be able to do pretty much everything - limited by basically just the modules and rigs you put on them
3] On a later date, more structures will be released, like assembly arrays, which will be probably more suited for manufacturing, but I have never seen anything more specific

...the final question: Should I start preparing for release of Citadels and start using one, or just wait for the new Assembly arrays? What are the differences? What can help me to make the decision? I dont want to invest into Citadel just to find it useless within few months after release of other structures.

Citadels won't be bonused for manufacturing, so I'd wait. Citadels are more geared towards safety of assets and players and storage of items.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Azahar Ortenegro
Seashells and Fireflies
#337 - 2015-10-28 21:33:16 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
And what about replacing Small and Medium POSes in-space storage and fitting abilities?

mobile depot


I believe CCP already stated that all citadels will have these capabilities. Otherwise, yes, Mobile Depot.


Mobile Depot can only be used by the owner, has a maximum life time of 1 month, does not have any defensive capabilities, and has a mighty 3000 m3 of storage space. It does not compare with a Small or a Medium POS.

And Medium Citadels replace Large POSes, not Small or Medium POSes.
Valterra Craven
#338 - 2015-10-28 21:43:01 UTC
Darkstar01 wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ytterbium, much like the industry changes a while back I have big concerns with how you guys are handling the new rigs. I really think you guys need to go back to the drawing board on that one.

You have a golden opportunity here to create a new market instead of trashing an old one.

What you should be doing is creating new rig materials that can only be found in null sec. This gives null sec an extra income base without actually giving them an isk printing machine. They've been hollering for more opportunities to level the playing field between hi-sec and this is the one chance you have to make them happy without creating an isk faucet. Please for the love of common sense do not tie t2 salvage to structure rigs in any way.


Nope, I think it's perfect that the new Citadels use the existing salvage system. Because in the current game, some salvages are worthless and never used, while other salvages are expensive and used very often.

The new Citadels will mainly be using the salvages that are currently worthless and never used - this has the effect of balancing the salvage system, so that all salvages will have a purpose - whether it's obtained in hisec or nullsec.

I'm sure they can also tweak the drop rates, so that nullsec drops expensive salvage more often than highsec. Or almost all of the expensive salvage is dropped in nullsec.

It would also make the game more accessible to new players, because it boosts the overall salvage income.



What are you forgetting is that markets do not function in a vacuum. When T2 rig prices exploded after this launches I will tell you I told you so.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#339 - 2015-10-28 22:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:

Mobile Depot can only be used by the owner, has a maximum life time of 1 month, does not have any defensive capabilities, and has a mighty 3000 m3 of storage space. It does not compare with a Small or a Medium POS.

And Medium Citadels replace Large POSes, not Small or Medium POSes.

So use a M Citadel?
Jeez, it's only a couple of hundred mil more, and you save massively on fuel costs if all you want it for is fitting and storage.

Incidentally, the above query about Fleet Hangers is actually really really important.
Because it also affects if Deep Space Transports can deploy a M Citadel without cargo fitting.
Justa Hunni
State War Academy
Caldari State
#340 - 2015-10-28 22:54:09 UTC
Querns wrote:
Justa Hunni wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:

blow up the old one and use asset safety to automove


Except of course if you are in a wormhole since only nullbears and other empire scum get asset protection.

I can't actually tell if you're boasting or complaining, but in the latter case, you can blame the wormhole community for that being the case. Asset safety was originally going to apply to wormholes.


Complaining actually Big smile I see some people saying that it was the "WH community" that demanded the removal of asset protection but actually what I've seen is when the plans were first made available, it was the whole "to recover you'll have to build another citadel in the same system to recover" that they were not in favour of. And of course, most of the WH people I've seen posting on this and otehr threads are not in favour of WH space being the only one where you will lose everything if your space castle goes boom. So not sure which part of the "WH community" to which you are referring.

Now if they had offered a similar asset protection system as they did to everyone else, (i.e. your assets can be recovered at an NPC station for a price) instead of the ludicrious "you'll have to put up yet another citadel in the system where you lost the last one" maybe the WH community would have been more receptive. But then again, not like CCP is really supportive of small WH corps.