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nowhere near enough. the gap between the navy crucifier/griffin and the maulus/vigil is not going to be fixed with tweaks. 2 of them are almost impossible to counter with a standard pvp fit, and two of them will be vulnerable to any t1 kiter, most t2 frigs, anything with neuts, and even a few t1 brawers especially scram kites in case of the navy griffin.

if i land in system scan a novice plex and see a navy maulus or navy vigil inside, how many ships can i take in there and expect to kill them 1v1? not very many i can think of. they'll beat any t1 frigate, they'll beat most other navy frigates, they'll even beat most pirate frigs. Only a dribbling moron would lose one of these in a novice plex, they're almost ****** proof. Just watch d-scan, you see a kite ship on the gate switch to rage and move to the beacon - nothing's escaping your overheated webs, you see a brawler on the gate move away from the beacon kite them... win 100% of all solo fights and farm dank lp.

even in small plexes with assault frigs, inties, and destroyers. they are perfect for running plexes in faction war, not so with the other two. for a start you have to leave the beacon every minute to go and kill a rat, all the time you're away from the beacon killing the rats you're vulnerable to someone coming in, and when you're brawl fit you spend most of your time going back and forward between the rats and the beacon. vigil and maulus don't really care because they have drones and long range weapons so they can set themselves up at their optimal. They need to be radically overhauled, with the Maulus and Vigil needing massive nerfs and the other two needing buffs:

1. Everyone fit's webs/scram regardless of whether you're bonused or not, griffin and crucifier need to use an extra slot to fit their ewar. The Vigil and Maulus should lose a low slot.

2. The vigil and maulus are way too hard to counter because they have such strong range control, nerf max velocity and agility to make them slightly less ****** proof

3. The cap regen on the Crucifier and Griffin should be double what the other two get. 2/s seems way too low anyway but especially for brawlers expected to run a slew of active mids it's a joke.

4. An additional tanking bonus on both the Navy Crucifier and Navy Griffin. Seriously -85% range is a massive negative that's not been compensated for anywhere in the bonuses. The other two have 3 positive bonuses and no penalties, Griffin/Crucifier have 3 positive bonuses and a massive penalty, give them resist bonuses.

5. Really think the Navy Crucifier should have neuts instead of td. If they want it to brawl give it a brawl ewar.

6. Navy Griffin has least amount of drones, slowest lock time, worst agility, almost slowest, almost biggest sig radius... could you maybe not make it worst or second worst in every base stat? How about making the Griffin and the Crucifier faster locking since their survival depends on it, they're expected to be ab fit and they don't have long range webs or scrams.

This is how far out of line they are imo.

1. And it's the fastest when its MWD is on and the enemy ship's MWD is off because it has 50% longer scram range. It being the slowest while also having 60k damage projection and long scams is completely fair.

2. See above. Also, Griffin and Crucifier need buffs, but the Vigil and Maulus still need small nerfs. Buffing things around them just creates power creep.

4. Still something. At least it makes them a bit better in the role they actually have.

5. I agree here.

6. Definitely weaker when will never get into its pathetic ECM range. It'll never get in range against anyone competent.

On attempting to fit a crucifier...........

Grid gimped. It wants to fit big guns to take advantage of the damage bonus, and it wants a mwd. 3 lows isn't conducive to active tanking, so it wants a plate.

compact mwd
400 compact plate
2x gatling pulse

Nothing else fitted. .3 grid over.

If it wanted to use that utility high it would have to fit gatling pulse and a 200mm plate. If that nigh-useless high was moved to a low, at least it would have a good slot layout even if it is pretty gimpy when it comes to the grid. That and active tanking would be an option (which I'll likely do anyway since that penalized TD is a joke).

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If it were up to me, what I'd do with the crucifier/griffin is.........

Crucifier

Ditch the TD bonus/penalty. Turn that into a neut range bonus akin to sentinel, but with no amount bonus. Might need more grid for an injector and to account for the neut. The neut would add some solo utility, wouldn't do much in a gang but meh.

Griffin

Change the ecm bonus to a bonus to range/strength/cooldown of ecm bursts. It would be an odd ship, but that would make it really unique. The model would also need a troll.jpg painted on the side.

Frigates aren't my thing.. unless it's a travel fit inty. That Maulus though is going to see a lot of work at gate camps as fast point.

And I think that's my basic issue with the design of these ships. Two of them are useful in only one circumstance, and they're even more limited then that because they're only good when they're waiting for the enemy on the warp in of a plex and able to scram targets instantly and hold them down because they'll never catch anything.

The Vigil and Maulus on the other hand are good in pretty much every situation. They will always have a use in a fleet.

It's just the plain fact that two are useless that bothers me about the design.

All these ships are doing is still catering towards the scram kite/kite meta. Hence why the Griffin and Crucifier are not getting much faith.

The definition of a light, fast ship needs to change from being flat out fast to being more agile, particularly more agile against heavier ships, even of the same class. So that light ships could exploit the acceleration by changing direction dramatically, forcing their opponent to do the same and because of it losing the speed struggle due to the slower acceleration.

Otherwise you will keep juggling the random +/-5 m/s on random hulls hoping it's going to offer some odd margin of error for people to fight over.

I spent a while last night trying to fit the navy cruci... and it just doesn't work.

When looking at bonuses I had thought it might make a good FW novice plex small gang boat, but it doesn't cut it.

Notes:
1. Not enough pg. You have to fit an ancil current router to get a 400mm plate on with *any* type of guns. This means it pretty much has to be an active rep boat. This limits use to solo contexts.
2. Tank isn't great no matter what you do. Even if you do cram the 400mm plate in, the tank isn't anything special. Certainly not worth the extra money compared to tormentor.
3. Firepower isn't great. It's going be better than the torm's, but only barely. Only three lows makes for really hard fitting choices for an Amarr gunboat.
4. TD bonus isn't any better than normal cruci. But range is shot.

All together:
A beam+ab/web/scram/td (or 2xweb instead of td), active tank lows fit will do well as a solo scram kite brawler for fighting frigs and dessies and a pulse fit with nos and active rep may do well for fighting many cruisers. But outside that, the ship has little role, even in FW. It certainly does not scale up very well into a boat I would want with me in a frig gang.

It needs either more grid so that it can work as a proper amarrian brawler, or it needs a TD bonus that actually makes up for the range reduction.

Or, maybe, lose the utility high for a fourth low. Then I wouldn't care so much about having to waste a rig slot on an ancil.

It's clear you've never flown ECM...

Clearly you've never had to fly a ship that has absolutely no tank with no guarantee of your modules actually working. Clearly you haven't had the warm fuzzy feeling of having your entire purpose in space tossed our the window over a set of bad RNG rolls, with no hope of actually doing anything for the next 20 seconds. Clearly all you see is your precious DPS count dropping, like every other meat-headed eJock and DudeBro.

Come back when you actually know what you're talking about.

The Navy Maulus and the Fleet Vigil are too hard to counter because of the range bonus to tackle, they'll push everything else out of the solo meta.

General consensus is that 2 of the 3 ships are OP. And can hold the targets untill the gang burns 10 systems over to whore on KM.
One ship (griffin) may be interesting.

Did I mention 4th ship? It does not exist even after the patch.