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[December] Navy EWar Frigates

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2015-10-30 03:03:58 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
-85% ecm range... ecm with a range of 4km, would you really waste a mid on that? What?

Ray P wrote:
woopie double strength ecm with 4km range then. so useful im sure


Easily 10km with decent skills and no extra bonuses.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#282 - 2015-10-30 07:42:46 UTC
Travis Uchonela wrote:
I don't know.

I mean some of this is going to be fun, but that Maulus looks too powerful. Also not sure I love these bonuses on t1 hulls, the Navy Vigil seems like it will step on the Hyena's toes big time.


Not really. +1 scram strength is helpful, but *most* things that can evade a point can't evade a standard double-point scram - and it's still fairly short ranged by default (unless you're being silly and fitting faction/deadspace on a FRIGATE). (Okay I do this some but not with mods that juicy.)

As to the Navy Vigil... not really. I mean, yeah, it's an obvious choice for combat because it gets actual COMBAT bonuses - but none of the EAS' get (meaningful) combat bonuses, and of the lot, the Sentinel is already the king. +50% web range is not a whole lot. Remember, the Hyena gets +200%. It's a kiter. This Navy Vigil has to stay in close to be effective - at which point it's just as much in danger as its opponent is.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#283 - 2015-10-30 08:07:36 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
-85% ecm range... ecm with a range of 4km, would you really waste a mid on that? What?

Ray P wrote:
woopie double strength ecm with 4km range then. so useful im sure


Easily 10km with decent skills and no extra bonuses.


You can't rainbow fit it, you will have at most 1 slot to use so it seems most realistic scenario is multi spec ecm which will have an optimal of 2.88km for people who haven't trained ecm skills (probably the majority of the playerbase), and 4.33km with perfect ecm skills. even racial jams will have an optimal of just 4.34km unskilled upto 6.5km for max skills

so your 10km number is obviously falloff, which is half strength, and that's basically what you get on an unbonused hull except you have a range of upto 52km ... so the question is do you roll with ecm in your mids on many solo pvp fits? I've never seen them used, i've seen sensor damps, target painters, and tracking disruptors on solo fits but i've never seen anyone use ecm. So do you think people are really going to use mids for a gimped ecm module with no range? Do you really think any brawler wants to trust his survival on a coin toss? If it had full range I would use it because then it could be good for pushing off kiters, or getting past the defensive scram/web of the other two, I really don't see why it's a problem compared to what the vigil and maulus can do, if it's okay for them to be clearly OP then it should be good enough for the amarr and caldari as well.

Did you skip the rest of my posts? Do you understand the effect this will have on the already horribly skewed faction war LP store? It's like the devs are using their god powers to shower their pets with isk. They might aswell magic up a couple trillion isk and split it between everyone in gallente and minmattar faction war every year becuase that's effectively what they're doing with these ships anyway and I'm a bit sick of it now.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#284 - 2015-10-30 08:19:20 UTC
The Fleet vigil ***** all over the Hookbill and the Fed Navy Comet ***** all over the Navy Griffin. So wtf is going on here?
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#285 - 2015-10-30 23:49:27 UTC
Some Thoughts about how to make frigates more balanced

Vigil: How about to restrict Vigil's weapon bonus to rockets like Melidiction have or change EWAR bonus to Target painter.
Maulus: One low slot can be moved to utility high and drone bay nerfed to 40 m3 like tristan have.
Crucifier and griffin: no restriction on EWAR optimal range or less penalty like 50% (not 85%)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#286 - 2015-10-31 22:59:05 UTC
I wonder if the vigil and the maulus will not help increase the amount of instalocking gate camps. Cheap long webs and cheap 3 point scrams. Gate camps are pretty low risk as it is so I think these very cheap ships will reduce the risk even further.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#287 - 2015-11-02 09:31:01 UTC
When I joined Gallente FW, I was placed into a Maulus and basically survived pissing off logi and Tornado snipers in our small gang.

So when I saw the Maulus Navy Issue, I had to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLnWf1sQkjY

Yeah, I want.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#288 - 2015-11-02 22:05:20 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
-85% ecm range... ecm with a range of 4km, would you really waste a mid on that? What?

Ray P wrote:
woopie double strength ecm with 4km range then. so useful im sure


Easily 10km with decent skills and no extra bonuses.


You can't rainbow fit it, you will have at most 1 slot to use so it seems most realistic scenario is multi spec ecm which will have an optimal of 2.88km for people who haven't trained ecm skills (probably the majority of the playerbase), and 4.33km with perfect ecm skills. even racial jams will have an optimal of just 4.34km unskilled upto 6.5km for max skills

so your 10km number is obviously falloff, which is half strength, and that's basically what you get on an unbonused hull except you have a range of upto 52km ... so the question is do you roll with ecm in your mids on many solo pvp fits? I've never seen them used, i've seen sensor damps, target painters, and tracking disruptors on solo fits but i've never seen anyone use ecm. So do you think people are really going to use mids for a gimped ecm module with no range? Do you really think any brawler wants to trust his survival on a coin toss? If it had full range I would use it because then it could be good for pushing off kiters, or getting past the defensive scram/web of the other two, I really don't see why it's a problem compared to what the vigil and maulus can do, if it's okay for them to be clearly OP then it should be good enough for the amarr and caldari as well.

Did you skip the rest of my posts? Do you understand the effect this will have on the already horribly skewed faction war LP store? It's like the devs are using their god powers to shower their pets with isk. They might aswell magic up a couple trillion isk and split it between everyone in gallente and minmattar faction war every year becuase that's effectively what they're doing with these ships anyway and I'm a bit sick of it now.

TBH i think it's just badly worded, and it's a poorly worded range bonus, ortherwise it would be a positive modifier instead of a negative.

But hey, that's just me being optimistic and not getting ANY clarification from the devs...
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#289 - 2015-11-02 23:33:27 UTC
fozzie you still havent come up with a 2nd iteration of these frigates? its pretty clear nobody likes the crucifier, and nobody seems to like the range differences. 2 long range 2 short range. 2 using the proper ewar of the their race, 2 using generic secondary ewar of every race.

WHY?

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#290 - 2015-11-03 09:37:32 UTC
what does rise think of the griffin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#291 - 2015-11-03 11:07:16 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
fozzie you still havent come up with a 2nd iteration of these frigates? its pretty clear nobody likes the crucifier, and nobody seems to like the range differences. 2 long range 2 short range. 2 using the proper ewar of the their race, 2 using generic secondary ewar of every race.

WHY?


but the crucifier is the only acceptable one
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#292 - 2015-11-05 05:50:18 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
griffin with damage bonus WTF

longer version:

there should not be more EWAR ships added until ECM is fixed. It is binary, not stacking penalized and one dimensional. All other EWAR types are mitigateable through player piloting skill and/or tactics were ECM is purely random. ECCM mods are only useful if the base sensor strength of your ship is already high and only very few ships have the luxury to be able to waste a med slot for it. ECCM has no secondary function (beside for OGB alts but lets don't talk about OGBs) and dedicated EWAR ships will still manage to jam you even with overheated ECCM running.

ECM is not fun, not interactive and far too strong in small scale warfare. Only because it does not scale to large scale warfare does not make it an acceptable game mechanic.

CCP promised years ago to take another look at ECM if they find time for it, but it never happened. The new doomsdays are explicitly designed to be fun for the player who fires them and for the target (watch the capital session from eve vegas and you will understand) - we need the same for ECM.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Alexis Nightwish
#293 - 2015-11-05 21:16:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
(snip)
Maulus Navy Issue
Gallente Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone tracking and hitpoints
10% bonus to Warp Scrambler range (This bonus does not apply to Warp Disruptors)
Misc Bonus:
+1 scramble strength to all Warp Scramblers (This bonus does not apply to Warp Disruptors)

Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 4 L, 2 Turret
3 Rig Slots, 400 Calibration
Fittings: 35 PWG, 150 CPU
Defense (shields / armour / hull): 450 / 525 / 600
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 330 / 165s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 325 / 3.35 / 1,063,000 / 5 / 4.94s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64.5km / 620 / 5
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 42
(snip)
Let us know what you think!

I think you guys need to get over your love affair with drone ships. I don't know why you think that 5 light drones (and two neuts) is somehow equal to the 3 effective small turrets (that most of the other NIEWARs have).

Some numbers:
3 Small Neutron Blasters IIs (highest DPS small turrets): 125 dps with Void at point blank range
5 Hobgoblin IIs (highest DPS light drones): 99 dps at 60km range (though realistically at 13.5km due to Maulus NI scram range)
3 Small Focused Pulse Laser IIs (similar dps to the drones above): 104 wtih Conflag at about 6km
3 Small Focused Beam Laser IIs (similar dps to the drones above): 100 wtih Gleam at about 6km


You're going to have the same problem with the Maulus NI in the NIEWAR area as you do with the Tristan in the T1 frig area, especially since it can kite with a scram (no MWD for you!) and neut (with the new Corpii A-Type Small Energy Neutralizers) outside the effective range of just about anything it chooses to fight.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#294 - 2015-11-06 16:51:21 UTC
Are we going to see an update to the stats before release? the MNI and the VFI look OP as navy frigs.

JUSTK is recruiting
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#295 - 2015-11-12 16:51:58 UTC
Requesting an update about the Navy Crucifier as well.

Also, I hope that these ships are released soonish. I hate seeings ships dumped 2 days before patch day onto the test server for us to get used to, as that leaves little in the way of time to actually test the things out.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Harreeb Alls
God of Terrorr
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#296 - 2015-11-12 19:08:06 UTC
I suggested giving the griffin and crucifier resist bonus's instead of damage, basically making them ewar tackle. A role they would excel at in small gangs grabbing single or duo targets. Another thought occurred to me, how about giving them the t2 ewar role bonus making them invisible on dscan.
BABARR
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#297 - 2015-11-13 00:14:26 UTC  |  Edited by: BABARR
Oh yes, more frig.
And when CCP going to work on tier 3 navy battleship?

Ah no, CCP don't like battleship.

And it's the first time i see TACKLE RANGE BONUS on T1 hull !
Gratz ccp, you did it !
EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE BONUS on vigil !
gratz CCP, you did it !

Total mess, not aligned on other ship, total "free troll bonus"

So we have frig, whith EW bonus AND dps bonus, the perfect thing for cheap blob anoying like hell

Where is my scorp navy whith EW bonus?

And what is next? buff the electronics attacks frig cause they became usless now?
Create the blackbird, bellicose, arbitrator and celestis navy ? Whith troll DPS bonus too?

Do you really think EVE need these ship when you already have T2 EW frig?

Nothing better to do?
Jhaelee de'Auvrie
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#298 - 2015-11-15 07:59:56 UTC
Wow, do these new ships look completely out of balance with each other. The new Navy Maulus is going to be a better Tristan (5 drones plus 14km scram before links) and the Vigil will be an amazing kiter as well with that web bonus.

The Navy Griffin and Crucifier on the other hand loose the range their EWAR type needs and in the case of the Crucifier, loose drones compared to its T1 base version. This in exchange for minor increase to traditional weapon damage over their base T1 version?

So the Gallente and Minmatar ones gain their T2 EWAR ship type bonuses instead of the T1 ones (tackle instead of target painters/sensor damps) and the Caldari and Amarr ones just get to be even worse versions of their base T1 ships?

This does not give me a lot of confidence in the game direction as a whole.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#299 - 2015-11-15 09:23:24 UTC
Jhaelee de'Auvrie wrote:
Wow, do these new ships look completely out of balance with each other. The new Navy Maulus is going to be a better Tristan (5 drones plus 14km scram before links) and the Vigil will be an amazing kiter as well with that web bonus.

The Navy Griffin and Crucifier on the other hand loose the range their EWAR type needs and in the case of the Crucifier, loose drones compared to its T1 base version. This in exchange for minor increase to traditional weapon damage over their base T1 version?

So the Gallente and Minmatar ones gain their T2 EWAR ship type bonuses instead of the T1 ones (tackle instead of target painters/sensor damps) and the Caldari and Amarr ones just get to be even worse versions of their base T1 ships?

This does not give me a lot of confidence in the game direction as a whole.


I'm sure it has nothing to do with bias. Projectile weapons were buffed twice and all hybrids were buffed not long ago.

Beams got overbuffed IMO (small/medium)

But the last real pulse laser change, besides some fitting tweaks, was.........2008? It was when the tracking got buffed after webs were nerfed from 90% and they couldn't hit anything. Oh well, if you don't count the scorch nerf.

With these frigates it's like a difficulty setting.
Grease PaYN
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#300 - 2015-11-18 20:31:16 UTC
The ecm strength of the navy griffin is stronger than that of the t1 griffin. How come the CNI has the same td strength as its t1 counterpart?

The CNI really needs a stronger TD bonus if it wants to compete with the likes of the popular fw rail comet fit, arty firetails, or even stand a chance against any cruiser/bc with dual webs (most nowadays basically).