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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1121 - 2015-10-16 00:09:44 UTC
darkchild's corpse wrote:
true but you were always able to buy it elsewhere and haul it with an alt. but to my understanding the point of skillpoints in general is that not every player is meant to do anything anytime. you have to spend time to learn something. this would no longer be the case.
How much SP do you think qualifies that statement of doing anything, and how trivial do you think obtaining that would be with the suggested system?
Grorious Reader
Mongorian Horde
#1122 - 2015-10-16 00:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Grorious Reader
This system is better than the character bazaar. It does nothing significant that the character bazaar doesn't already allow. Players can already buy skill points!. That's what buying a character on the bazaar is. This is not a new game mechanic. It's a rework of an existing one. I don't know why you "omg no lol terrible idea CCP" idiots can't grasp that. Just because it comes in the form of a full character does not mean it isn't buying skill points. This system is just making it more accessible. And honestly, who gives a crap if you can fly a capital ship sooner than you normally would. It's still the same capital ship anyone who spent the time to train it themselves is flying. You just paid way more for it.

I assume the character bazaar would go away if this system went in place.

The only problem I foresee is pricing. Usage buy richer players for training alts could price actual new players out of the market.

For some perspective on the diminishing returns aspect. An 80mil SP character would have to buy over a year worth of SP just to do Fighters V. That's just that one level of that one skill, not any prereqs for it.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1123 - 2015-10-16 00:10:48 UTC
Please make ISK perchasing and RMT legal as well. That would round the circle.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Nicholas Vierra
Halasenzar Corporation
United Federation of Conifers
#1124 - 2015-10-16 00:12:04 UTC
Going to throw in my two cents here, This is not a good Idea in my opinion. This will unbalance the current skill system, as it gives both High SP characters and Low SP Characters the ability to pay real world money to increase their skill level, possibly through PLEX Transactions then ISK transactions, almost creating a Pay to win scenario.

For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.

For characters more than two years old, they should have the option to purchase a "Cognitive reset device" that allows players to change what skills their sp is allocated to. This would be a system that could only be used once each year after.

Otherwise, Leave the skill Point accumulation alone, or reduce training times on certain "Core" Skills that every character needs to train. Possibly add additional implants that increase skill accumulation beyond the +5 level that can be purchased through arum, or, maybe acquired through Drifter events?

I understand the desire to enhance the player experience in game, but I don't feel this is it. Possibly what you should look at instead is building on EVE's story, like you have with the Drifters and the Scope events, and as rewards, offer rare skill bonus packs. Perhaps random Player Specific events that pop up from time to time that offer you as a reward a skill point packet that you could either sell, or use, and your chances of being assigned one of these events increase based on the amount of time you spend active in space. Something perhaps a bit more immersive than your standard mission, and more involved. In other words, a special sort of reward for active playtime, instead of passive playtime.

As for this Character Bazaar, It is not a service I see myself using, but it is great to have all the same. and who knows? I may decide to trade in one of my old PI Characters. Eve Changes, People change, and giving players the freedom to change their characters the same way they have changed may be a benefit.

Come and join us in Deninard!

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#1125 - 2015-10-16 00:12:45 UTC
Seems like this thread has gone downhill.. There were some good points made on the first 30 or so pages.

I like how people keep simply stating character bazaar as an argument for implementing this idea. The character bazaar and this proposal are two completely separate things. Getting unallocated SP is of many magnitudes more desirable than purchasing a character from the bazaar.
Stragak
#1126 - 2015-10-16 00:14:44 UTC
What is so hard about doing it for name changes etc. That is only given to you on character transactions that occur as a surcharge. Both parties would pay a transaction fee and makes it 'nearly' prohibitive of being abused with ~60 dollars if people are doing it to themselves. And if you do it and your accounts are linked you get flagged as 'formally known as'.

Between the $60 in charges excluding account charges I am sure we can find a middle ground.

"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches". In good humor, and slight annoyance, Boiglio   https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#1127 - 2015-10-16 00:15:11 UTC
Nicholas Vierra wrote:
For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.


Already in game with severe age restrictions: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cerebral_Accelerator
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1128 - 2015-10-16 00:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Nicholas Vierra wrote:
Going to throw in my two cents here, This is not a good Idea in my opinion. This will unbalance the current skill system, as it gives both High SP characters and Low SP Characters the ability to pay real world money to increase their skill level, possibly through PLEX Transactions then ISK transactions, almost creating a Pay to win scenario.

For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.

For characters more than two years old, they should have the option to purchase a "Cognitive reset device" that allows players to change what skills their sp is allocated to. This would be a system that could only be used once each year after.

Otherwise, Leave the skill Point accumulation alone, or reduce training times on certain "Core" Skills that every character needs to train. Possibly add additional implants that increase skill accumulation beyond the +5 level that can be purchased through arum, or, maybe acquired through Drifter events?

I understand the desire to enhance the player experience in game, but I don't feel this is it. Possibly what you should look at instead is building on EVE's story, like you have with the Drifters and the Scope events, and as rewards, offer rare skill bonus packs. Perhaps random Player Specific events that pop up from time to time that offer you as a reward a skill point packet that you could either sell, or use, and your chances of being assigned one of these events increase based on the amount of time you spend active in space. Something perhaps a bit more immersive than your standard mission, and more involved. In other words, a special sort of reward for active playtime, instead of passive playtime.

As for this Character Bazaar, It is not a service I see myself using, but it is great to have all the same. and who knows? I may decide to trade in one of my old PI Characters. Eve Changes, People change, and giving players the freedom to change their characters the same way they have changed may be a benefit.



I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. I mean so rich I can throw away a trillion ISK and not even really notice. And even then going to the character bazaar and buying a character with the skills I'd be getting via SP packets would be far, far more efficient ISK wise.

So, maybe you should try actually reading the dev blog first.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Skorpion Medion
Finko Holding
#1129 - 2015-10-16 00:15:45 UTC
Nicholas Vierra wrote:
Going to throw in my two cents here, This is not a good Idea in my opinion. This will unbalance the current skill system, as it gives both High SP characters and Low SP Characters the ability to pay real world money to increase their skill level, possibly through PLEX Transactions then ISK transactions, almost creating a Pay to win scenario.

For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.

For characters more than two years old, they should have the option to purchase a "Cognitive reset device" that allows players to change what skills their sp is allocated to. This would be a system that could only be used once each year after.

Otherwise, Leave the skill Point accumulation alone, or reduce training times on certain "Core" Skills that every character needs to train. Possibly add additional implants that increase skill accumulation beyond the +5 level that can be purchased through arum, or, maybe acquired through Drifter events?

I understand the desire to enhance the player experience in game, but I don't feel this is it. Possibly what you should look at instead is building on EVE's story, like you have with the Drifters and the Scope events, and as rewards, offer rare skill bonus packs. Perhaps random Player Specific events that pop up from time to time that offer you as a reward a skill point packet that you could either sell, or use, and your chances of being assigned one of these events increase based on the amount of time you spend active in space. Something perhaps a bit more immersive than your standard mission, and more involved. In other words, a special sort of reward for active playtime, instead of passive playtime.

As for this Character Bazaar, It is not a service I see myself using, but it is great to have all the same. and who knows? I may decide to trade in one of my old PI Characters. Eve Changes, People change, and giving players the freedom to change their characters the same way they have changed may be a benefit.
best post Imho, alot of reasoning, I love the idea about Cognitive reset device, and the starter pack,
Sarah Saoirse
Doomheim
#1130 - 2015-10-16 00:16:17 UTC
So far, depending on what the costs ultimately work out to for the skill extractors, this looks good - the resale value of high-SP characters is preserved, we gain a often-requested tool for SP reallocation so people stop complaining about the 5 million points of mining they have on their combat characters, and new pilots get a way to pick up SP faster.

The only real downside is the market for lower SP characters will vanish - so the industry of purpose built alts for sale is going to go away.

This would be a good opportunity to do something about attributes though, at the same time as this change goes into effect, or in the months before, as part of a complete overhaul.



Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#1131 - 2015-10-16 00:16:31 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Please make ISK perchasing and RMT legal as well. That would round the circle.

Purchasing ISK is already legal. Buy a PLEX, dump it into the market, and *POOF* you've got 1.2 bil.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1132 - 2015-10-16 00:16:39 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Delegate wrote:
  • This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar..
  • Suppose a packet cost 2 plex worth of AUR to make.

    Ok, now suppose it's a little bit less... where's the tipping point?


    It's a wholly different market. Character bazaar involves large transactions (ISK-wise). That puts a limit to how far it can scale. The entry to the skill market can potentially be much easier. That market may, therefore, have a lot more participants, and in turn a lot higher SP volume (even if volume per participant is not large). And that could be very bad for the game. For example, a new player may find that a lot of his peers buy a rapid entry to the game, while he lags behind. Is that a positive new player experience? When a new FOTM goes online – say t3 frigates – a lot of early adopter might be those that bought needed skills from alt-producers ( explained alts providing the skill supply in my previous post). Is that a positive game experience? We talking fluid, pervasive skill market here. That's a ruthless monetization of the game.
    I am fine with paying double the current subscription level but not necessary fine with building my character in that kind of environment. And I have a lot of SP to train before I can call myself a vet.
    Teckos Pech
    Hogyoku
    Goonswarm Federation
    #1133 - 2015-10-16 00:18:14 UTC
    Delegate wrote:
    Alavaria Fera wrote:
    Delegate wrote:
  • This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar..
  • Suppose a packet cost 2 plex worth of AUR to make.

    Ok, now suppose it's a little bit less... where's the tipping point?


    It's a wholly different market. Character bazaar involves large transactions (ISK-wise). That puts a limit to how far it can scale. The entry to the skill market can potentially be much easier. That market may, therefore, have a lot more participants, and in turn a lot higher SP volume (even if volume per participant is not large). And that could be very bad for the game. For example, a new player may find that a lot of his peers buy a rapid entry to the game, while he lags behind. Is that a positive new player experience? When a new FOTM goes online – say t3 frigates – a lot of early adopter might be those that bought needed skills from alt-producers ( explained alts providing the skill supply in my previous post). Is that a positive game experience? We talking fluid, pervasive skill market here. That's a ruthless monetization of the game.
    I am fine with paying double the current subscription level but not necessary fine with building my character in that kind of environment. And I have a lot of SP to train before I can call myself a vet.



    Decreasing returns means scaling is NOT easy.

    Holy ****, can't believe I had to explain that.

    Roll

    "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

    8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

    Estevan Andrard
    Doomheim
    #1134 - 2015-10-16 00:18:58 UTC
    That may backfire so badly as it is now. I am a fan of cheating in clever ways, but damn, this Skill Pill thingy will transcend exploitations to a whole new level.

    After the so called human traffic that is the Bazaar, where you sell not only skill, but a lot of people use the bazaar to a lot of other things, like amassing tons of specific kinds of alts, private sales for elegant corporation espionage, plain simple blobbing, alt hauling and what not. Now we may have yet one more venue of misleading the progression, time and identity bringing a whole new level of shame to the game.

    By all means, introduce it right now, and the forums will burn.

    If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?

    Mr Epeen
    It's All About Me
    #1135 - 2015-10-16 00:19:01 UTC
    Tiddle Jr wrote:
    Please make ISK perchasing and RMT legal as well. That would round the circle.
    CCP wrote:

    PLEX Store
    Buy PLEX, Use PLEX Services, Trade PLEX for ISK
    You were saying?

    Mr Epeen Cool

    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #1136 - 2015-10-16 00:20:04 UTC
    Don ZOLA wrote:
    Those characters represent people. Eve wondered why none of them was sold? Because they are not commodities. People bond with their characters, with time and efforts which they had put in them and what those characters present.

    But that even was not the main point of my post, that was just a simple example of chars not being commodities. The point is that this will have no real benefit for new players and plenty of side effects and. And that it is potentially great threat to EVE.

    And if that`s all you had to say on my post then I congratulate you for 50 pages of trolling. Since you obviously have no intention to work/discuss on actual improvement of the game I suppose you are just trolling or you are working in the opposite direction of my intentions (improving the game), for any reason there might be.

    Since most of other comments who are supporting this idea are alts, I am glad that community has strong vote for NO. Though I hope even more people states that this idea is ********, so CCP does a "reality check" and see in how wrong direction they are going and that they have to change their mindset and vision to actually improve the game for the sake of the game and players.

    The people would continue to persist if their characters were sold.

    I support bettering the game, and making the character bazaar nightmare more fluid and more accessible is an unmitigated good.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

    Moac Tor
    Cyber Core
    Immediate Destruction
    #1137 - 2015-10-16 00:20:15 UTC
    Teckos Pech wrote:
    I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game.

    It is not the high SP characters that anyone with sense is really worried about. It is the day old newbies and alts that can effectively level up instantly to 50mil SP+.

    Blizzard allowed characters to instantly level in WOW and we can all see how that turned out.
    SunPrice TheSun
    Boa Innovations
    Brothers of Tangra
    #1138 - 2015-10-16 00:22:33 UTC
    I think this is a very good idea. Why ? This will interest more newbies into the game which is in turn very good for the health of EVE ! Most of new players quit cause of the difference levels, let's image how could a newbie compete with an 5 years playing EVE ? This will give them a chance to survive at last. SP means nothing cause it's the experience and knowledge make a victory ! Stop being selfish and think of a greater course guys !

    Another thing is that this game is already PTW, you can buy a brand new character by Cash on ebay ... This content will give the older players to benefit from their unnessesary SP and help newbies catch up a little bit .
    Divine Entervention
    Doomheim
    #1139 - 2015-10-16 00:23:00 UTC
    Moac Tor wrote:
    Teckos Pech wrote:
    I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game.

    It is not the high SP characters that anyone with sense is really worried about. It is the day old newbies and alts that can effectively level up instantly to 50mil SP+.

    Blizzard allowed characters to instantly level in WOW and we can all see how that turned out.


    Yea but that game inherently sucks.

    EvE is a great game not because of the way you acquire skill points, but because of the cut-throat nature of the game and the really intricate interactions you can have with others playing the game.

    My being able to buy skill points to now fly a caldari battleship appropriately isn't going to detract from the nature of the game. If anything, it reinforces it by allowing me to fly a more expensive ship instead of having to wait 4 more months for all those skills to finally level where I can feel confident enough in my fitting ability to actually fly it, getting that ship into existence and available for you and your friends to try to blow up.
    Aerasia
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #1140 - 2015-10-16 00:23:05 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Aerasia wrote:
    I'm not convinced it will actually do anything as there is that fundamental requirement of spare SP to start the process.

    I get the feeling this is going to find a blocker in that the main source of spare SP (veteran players) are either:
    A) Going to be very e-peen about their SP totals, and unwilling to give it up.
    B) Continually training alts for tasks instead of just junk training on their main, so they're not going to actually be able to skim off unused SP.

    That being said, my only real complaint about the system itself is that it's founded on the assumption that SP is a necessary evil for the game.
    The character training currently intentionally fueling the character bazaar will likely end up being in part transitioned to this mechanic. I won't speculate on how well used it will be, but I don't see it going unused.

    If it's only repurposing the CB characters then impact is minimal. Same amount of SP on the market (less possibly, considering the proposed transfer tax).