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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Chrome Veinss
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1141 - 2015-10-16 00:23:14 UTC
Doc Hyland wrote:
This is a terrible idea.

Look, if you want to change the Character Bazaar... then change the Character Bazaar. What you're doing is something else entirely.

Do this:

Have an in-game UI (like the one used for Industry/Blueprints). If the seller followed the rules exactly, he can click on "Sell this Character on the Bazaar." It can be an auction, or a "buy it now" style. Seller gets to choose how much isk, etc etc. One of the requirements should be an alternate character where the ISK would go when the character is sold. People can browse through all the characters for sale.

Once the seller clicks, "Sell Me!" it logs the seller out and the character is unavailable to you. Once somebody buys it in-game, the character is automatically transferred to the buyer's account (like when somebody buys plex - they redeem it) and the ISK is transferred to the character the seller selected as the receiver. Done. Simple.

As far as changing the name and looks... too bad. In EVE, you're the character, not yourself. The great benefit of this game is that the characters are static. I never have to worry about an old friend changing their name and disappearing.


Umm what if your old friend sells his character and buys another one?
Emileon
Alcoholocaust.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1142 - 2015-10-16 00:23:17 UTC
Wow..Just wow,

As a player since '09, I've seen this game go through many changes and this by far would be one of the worst if not the worst that CCP has ever come up with!!

Does anyone remember "Greed is good" and the burn jita event it spawned? At the time EVE was a really healthy game and even though it lost some players it was able to rebound. This is not the case this time around, EVE cannot afford that type of mistake again, but yet it seems like you guys are trying it anyway.

If this goes through the development stage into the game, it will kill the game once and for all.

CCP, EVE is already hurting and player retention is not that great, so what do you do? Go ahead and come up with a horrible idea and the screw over the players still keeping EVE going!

This will in effect take yrs off of people's playing efforts and since SP is an integral part of the game, it will push older players out of the game in record numbers.

If you really don't want EVE around anymore, just turn it off, don't make it go through a Hollywood death scene first!


Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1143 - 2015-10-16 00:26:17 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game.

It is not the high SP characters that anyone with sense is really worried about. It is the day old newbies and alts that can effectively level up instantly to 50mil SP+.

Blizzard allowed characters to instantly level in WOW and we can all see how that turned out.
The wow instant levelling isn't the same as it doesn't require anyone to give up existing levels and this doesn't bring you anywhere near max for a single purchase. Though even if they did it should be a non-issue unless you place the whole of your worth on your SP.

Beyond that, needing 122 packets should dampen any trend towards instant 50mill SP characters.
Sella Lesbon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1144 - 2015-10-16 00:26:36 UTC
Good. I like it.
Don't listen to these oldies that keep blocking this game from evolving.

> Never do something to someone that you wouldn't like to be done to yourself.

Shinjou Hanabi
28th Imperial Crusade
#1145 - 2015-10-16 00:27:11 UTC
well... i don't think it is a good idea, broSad
Rikki Bigg
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1146 - 2015-10-16 00:27:51 UTC
EVE Online has such a depth of variability, which makes it popular for the individuals that play it.

This change being discussed, does much to reduce the complexity of the game.

This is a bad thing.


Reduce the steep learning curve, make the game more player friendly, change things to make the game attractive to future players while at the same time keep retained players engaged. But do not reduce the complexity of the game.

Maraner
The Executioners
#1147 - 2015-10-16 00:28:04 UTC
What the ever **** **** is this ****.

Did someone just take a big dump of **** to the brain. Maybe they should extract their own packet and flush it now before the rage monster takes full flight.

This is flat out pay to win.

NO NO NO NO

there... opinion given.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1148 - 2015-10-16 00:29:11 UTC
Rikki Bigg wrote:
EVE Online has such a depth of variability, which makes it popular for the individuals that play it.

This change being discussed, does much to reduce the complexity of the game.

This is a bad thing.


Reduce the steep learning curve, make the game more player friendly, change things to make the game attractive to future players while at the same time keep retained players engaged. But do not reduce the complexity of the game.
No complexity is lost from this idea in any way shape or form.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#1149 - 2015-10-16 00:29:17 UTC
Sella Lesbon wrote:
Good. I like it.
Don't listen to these oldies that keep blocking this game from evolving.


Oi! Try to remember these "oldies" are the ones who kept EVE going from it's release to now. Don't be disrespectful of them or that fact.
Stragak
#1150 - 2015-10-16 00:29:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Stragak
SunPrice TheSun wrote:
I think this is a very good idea. Why ? This will interest more newbies into the game which is in turn very good for the health of EVE ! Most of new players quit cause of the difference levels, let's image how could a newbie compete with an 5 years playing EVE ? This will give them a chance to survive at last. SP means nothing cause it's the experience and knowledge make a victory ! Stop being selfish and think of a greater course guys !

Another thing is that this game is already PTW, you can buy a brand new character by Cash on ebay ... This content will give the older players to benefit from their unnessesary SP and help newbies catch up a little bit .

They can catch up they buy a plex 'giving money to CCP', sell it 'giving game time to people and leveling out the plex market', and buy a character 'that would otherwise never undock'

The main issue people have and have ALWAYS had is putting their own touch on the character to make it THEIR character. This normally boils down to the name of said character.

As always your first character is your first love it would be nice to see that alts bought are the same. Me personally I HAVE BOUGHT ON THE SITE 2 characters. They are just alts. But I DO have {main alts} if you will. That I myself have trained.

"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches". In good humor, and slight annoyance, Boiglio   https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1151 - 2015-10-16 00:29:42 UTC
Emileon wrote:
Wow..Just wow,

As a player since '09, I've seen this game go through many changes and this by far would be one of the worst if not the worst that CCP has ever come up with!!

Does anyone remember "Greed is good" and the burn jita event it spawned? At the time EVE was a really healthy game and even though it lost some players it was able to rebound. This is not the case this time around, EVE cannot afford that type of mistake again, but yet it seems like you guys are trying it anyway.

If this goes through the development stage into the game, it will kill the game once and for all.

CCP, EVE is already hurting and player retention is not that great, so what do you do? Go ahead and come up with a horrible idea and the screw over the players still keeping EVE going!

This will in effect take yrs off of people's playing efforts and since SP is an integral part of the game, it will push older players out of the game in record numbers.

If you really don't want EVE around anymore, just turn it off, don't make it go through a Hollywood death scene first!



What's horrible about being able to sell some of your SP or buy some of someone else's?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1152 - 2015-10-16 00:29:43 UTC
Emileon wrote:

This will in effect take yrs off of people's playing efforts and since SP is an integral part of the game,


SP is an integral part of boosting your ego with an Eveboard link. Period.

Taking the time to learn to use those SP is the real trick. You can't buy that.

Like I just said. Stop crying and start dreaming about how much fun you are going to have ganking the fools that think like you and so many others in here do.

Mr Epeen Cool
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1153 - 2015-10-16 00:30:31 UTC
Maraner wrote:
What the ever **** **** is this ****.

Did someone just take a big dump of **** to the brain. Maybe they should extract their own packet and flush it now before the rage monster takes full flight.

This is flat out pay to win.

NO NO NO NO

there... opinion given.

It's not.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1154 - 2015-10-16 00:30:44 UTC
Maraner wrote:
What the ever **** **** is this ****.

Did someone just take a big dump of **** to the brain. Maybe they should extract their own packet and flush it now before the rage monster takes full flight.

This is flat out pay to win.

NO NO NO NO

there... opinion given.
So having more SP is winning? Also how did the Bazaar not violate this?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1155 - 2015-10-16 00:32:00 UTC
I'm joining in the chorus of No's on this.
I think it needs to be said loud and clear that this is a bad plan
It is a massive step towards a P2W environment, and is totally a pay for free SP gimmick.

The character bazaar required the character actually to be around the correct amount of time.
This allows you to make a 1 day old character to 50 million SP.
It also allows you to 'recycle' ganking characters by stripping the relevant SP off them, then you just let the -10 alt languish and let the account lapse while moving all that SP onto a brand new character who isn't -10.

The abuses of this to get around existing rules are myriad, the benefits basically none.
Do NOT do this.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#1156 - 2015-10-16 00:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Ok to sum it up.


They want to introduce new feature which should help new players.

So when the new player comes he finds out that beside subscription he should spent 5x-10x that money to "get it going". Meaning that since the start he does not get the EVE. Eve is not about speeding things up and having it easy way. When that reality hits them a lot will just quit, since they were not prepared for that.


After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training. There is no Instant Start Up Course to teach them everything in couple of hours. Then disappointment comes. Guess what, 99% will quit. You will make them spend extra cash and give them false image of the game which will not lead to anything.

So the group this should help the most will actually have the least benefit of it. Ie the whole idea is a giant fail. There are people mentioning alliances who will buy sp to boost news etc. How many alliances accepts new players? How many puts effort in them? Eve Uni cannot fund something like this, other alliances/corps might eventually use it to affect some battle doctrine they are using, but there is low possibility due to high cost as alliances tend to have players with more sp.


There is definitely need to find a way to attract and keep new players, but this is not the proper one.


Meanwhile, some older players will utilize this function to spec new alts. Also some rich old players could try to get on top of total sp list and take off someone who committed himself for years to the game to be where he is. During that plenty of older/vet players will quit, disappointed in CCP. They will not be disappointed because "some newbs are overtaking them in sp". Let`s be realistic, there will be only minor amount of those who will spend a lot of cash to get high sp just for the sake of sp. There might be couple of contenders on top spots, i know some people can afford spending thousands of usd/eur on the game if they find that idea (to be top 1) in sp interesting.

People will be disappointed as they will see CCP making great mistakes. Changing FUNDAMENTALS of the game for something new, something they cannot even assume the result of, without considering side effects and without caring about their customers feelings. Meaning that if they are ready to do it once, they will do it again and people will not commit their time as they cannot know what to expect next in the long run. People will be disappointed as they will lose faith in CCP and company`s vision of the game. No one is going to trust with his money company which is inconsistent and on whom`s ideas and vision they can lean on or see themselves be part of.

So, even though some people have personal interests to be able to fix the mistakes they did (boofkinhoo, cry me a river about wrongly put 2mil sp) or to get an alt easier without being able to look at the whole picture as they can look up only on their own asses, this whole idea will strike whole player base in much worse sense.

And there could be even more side effects like rmt and who knows what else...


I hope I have drawn it nicely for everyone.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1157 - 2015-10-16 00:34:16 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nicholas Vierra wrote:
Going to throw in my two cents here, This is not a good Idea in my opinion. This will unbalance the current skill system, as it gives both High SP characters and Low SP Characters the ability to pay real world money to increase their skill level, possibly through PLEX Transactions then ISK transactions, almost creating a Pay to win scenario.

For new players you should instead offer them the option of purchasing a starter pack that contains a training speed bonus that lasts 3 months, and can only be activated within the first six months of EVE.

For characters more than two years old, they should have the option to purchase a "Cognitive reset device" that allows players to change what skills their sp is allocated to. This would be a system that could only be used once each year after.

Otherwise, Leave the skill Point accumulation alone, or reduce training times on certain "Core" Skills that every character needs to train. Possibly add additional implants that increase skill accumulation beyond the +5 level that can be purchased through arum, or, maybe acquired through Drifter events?

I understand the desire to enhance the player experience in game, but I don't feel this is it. Possibly what you should look at instead is building on EVE's story, like you have with the Drifters and the Scope events, and as rewards, offer rare skill bonus packs. Perhaps random Player Specific events that pop up from time to time that offer you as a reward a skill point packet that you could either sell, or use, and your chances of being assigned one of these events increase based on the amount of time you spend active in space. Something perhaps a bit more immersive than your standard mission, and more involved. In other words, a special sort of reward for active playtime, instead of passive playtime.

As for this Character Bazaar, It is not a service I see myself using, but it is great to have all the same. and who knows? I may decide to trade in one of my old PI Characters. Eve Changes, People change, and giving players the freedom to change their characters the same way they have changed may be a benefit.



I have 123 million SP currently. That means if I buy a 500,000 SP packet I get just 50,000 SP to allocate. It is generally a horrible deal unless I become grotesquely rich in game. I mean so rich I can throw away a trillion ISK and not even really notice. And even then going to the character bazaar and buying a character with the skills I'd be getting via SP packets would be far, far more efficient ISK wise.

So, maybe you should try actually reading the dev blog first.


To be fair to him. I did math out how much it would take me to Max out my Main. It was only about 1.5T. I could do that a few times.

I wouldn't because I barely have stuff to train now but it might be fun for laughs.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Acaia Saraki
Rogue Occupation
#1158 - 2015-10-16 00:34:39 UTC
I'd like to open with a few simple statements. I'm new to the game, pretty much. I haven't put in any of the hard time that every single hard core vet that's here has. I haven't ever posted to the forums before and I'm really no one of consequence. With that out of the way. Maybe what I have to say will have more of an impact.

As a new player, the biggest thing that irks me is that I have to spend countless real life hours waiting for next skill to finish training. Then in order for it to get better, I have to spend days. Then I have to spend weeks. Then afterwards it's months. All for what? A video game of internet spaceships. That's irritating to no end. And here's why:
Every single person that's been in the game for 6 months before me views me as a prey item. Every player with more time than that views me as worthless. In order to be considered effective, skills that are absolutely required for me to have to be useful to any of the large and respected corporations in game. I have to spend a year working alone or working with smaller corporations while at the mercy of all the bigger names around me. That's a year of being told "haha, no, sorry. No newbs." everywhere I go. That's a year of being hilariously and hopelessly out gunned. For every single new player that does manage to trickle into this game, it's a game of forever catch up. A game that no new player will ever win. Or finish for that matter. While all the veterans sit fat and happy with mountains of ISK and SP, every newbro struggles to even begin the climb.
So, rant over.
Anyway. As a new player. I'm all for this. Because it will allow me to grab a couple of SP packets, suck them dry and be able to instantly become more viable for corporations that suit me. This change will allow me to become a lot more useful in contribution, content creation and viability in anything my particular corp needs me to do. I won't have to wait 8 days anymore to train a support skill that's barring me from getting into making myself self sufficient. I'll now be able to simply plug it straight in and get to the more important factor that's really at stake here: Enjoying the game. I don't enjoy the game right now as much as I want to because like I said above. I'm the baitfish in the lagoon filled with barracuda. With this change, I can instantly become a barracuda myself and level the playing field.

That's my 2 cents. I'm all for this. It'll actually assist genuine new players entering the game for the first time. Or help bring back new players that were discouraged because of time constraints. No one wants to spend years waiting to enjoy a video game their way. No one wants to spend their entire career playing the role of the baitfish either. So please. Make it so. Put more thought into benefiting new players and balancing it for the vets and adding mechanics that would nerf it into the ground for those who would abuse this simply for the sake of griefing the new players. Make this a thing please.
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#1159 - 2015-10-16 00:35:01 UTC
I love how many people are just pretending the character bazaar doesn't exist. I also love how CSM members keep pandering to those people while also utterly failing to construct an argument that makes ANY sense.

You can trade Cash for ISK for SP, RIGHT NOW. This change only brings SP sale to the masses, and lets me get a friend or corp mate into a doctrine that much sooner. Good change CCP.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 

Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1160 - 2015-10-16 00:35:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Delegate wrote:
  • This has a potential to scale well beyond the current SP transfer via character bazaar. As such it has a substantially stronger pay-to-win taste to it than the character bazaar..
  • Suppose a packet cost 2 plex worth of AUR to make.

    Ok, now suppose it's a little bit less... where's the tipping point?


    It's a wholly different market. Character bazaar involves large transactions (ISK-wise). That puts a limit to how far it can scale. The entry to the skill market can potentially be much easier. That market may, therefore, have a lot more participants, and in turn a lot higher SP volume (even if volume per participant is not large). And that could be very bad for the game. For example, a new player may find that a lot of his peers buy a rapid entry to the game, while he lags behind. Is that a positive new player experience? When a new FOTM goes online – say t3 frigates – a lot of early adopter might be those that bought needed skills from alt-producers ( explained alts providing the skill supply in my previous post). Is that a positive game experience? We talking fluid, pervasive skill market here. That's a ruthless monetization of the game.
    I am fine with paying double the current subscription level but not necessary fine with building my character in that kind of environment. And I have a lot of SP to train before I can call myself a vet.



    Decreasing returns means scaling is NOT easy.

    Holy ****, can't believe I had to explain that.

    Roll


    I advice you to carefully read my posts again. I wrote about how far that _market_ can scale. Also, if you want to make a point, place put some effort into it, including justification. I'm not going to waste time on pointless word throwing.