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Data Site Improvements

First post First post
Author
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2015-10-06 23:20:04 UTC
Xerxes Fehrnah wrote:
I do not understand why relic and data sites ever dropped differing levels of loot. One is not easier than the other. They have the exact same risk.

I suspect the idea was just to make them have different loot, because variety is interesting. But as soon as you make the loot different, market forces will cause one kind of site to become more valuable than the other.

Marech.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2015-10-07 02:18:13 UTC
Marech Bhayanaka wrote:
Xerxes Fehrnah wrote:
I do not understand why relic and data sites ever dropped differing levels of loot. One is not easier than the other. They have the exact same risk.

I suspect the idea was just to make them have different loot, because variety is interesting. But as soon as you make the loot different, market forces will cause one kind of site to become more valuable than the other.

Marech.

Again, relic sites maintain better loot value because Rigs are made for salvage materials and Rigs are constantly being destroyed either by ships or by changing rigs.

Datacores that come from data sites are required for Invention but are able to be farmed from 2 other sources. Decryptors are completely optional for the invention process and thus have fluctuating demand.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#123 - 2015-10-08 18:00:42 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Also as I have been suggesting since the change there must be some form of danger in Data and Relic sites, this would also help to make the sites valuable again as not all players would make it out with there loot, it doesn't need to be in the form of rats but some sort of danger and chance of losing the ship needs to be there, the sleeper sites were a good example of how to make a profitable sites with mostly environmental dangers.


The danger in the sites largely comes from other players. This is a good thing.

Adding some environmental damage is a bad idea, since you just limit what ships the hunters can use.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#124 - 2015-10-08 18:07:30 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
What are the thoughts on things like volatile pieces of wreckage in Relic sites which can explode and damage the ship, or corrosive gas clouds to slowly damage the entering ship to include some danger to the site.

Or for Data sites, an alarm unit that unless successfully hack will alert rats, or deploy mines to safe guard the data containers.


I'm all for changes like this that increase the demand on player ability and potentially harm them if mistakes are made.
As long as they're fair.

An alarm based Defensive Subsystem inside the hacking UI was one of the initial goals that had to be dropped due to time constraints, but it's something I would like to see revisited in the future.
A relic based alternative is something I would like to do in tandem with that change.



All this does is make the sites safer to run, since it means that a hunter cannot sit cloaked in the site.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Valder Ripley
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2015-10-09 08:08:07 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Note: The similarities of the Data and Relic hacking game are known, as is the Cargo Scanning/Cherry Picking of containers.
Both of these are outside the scope of my free time right now however but are not forgotten.

Fly safe,
CCP RedDawn


Well, as a dedicated explorer I don´t care too much about the content of loot - I always expect nothing and I never would use a cargo scanner for cherry picking, because I would miss the excitement of the unexpected Blink

Of course I welcome the data site changes, because at the moment the results are usually a little bit unsatisfying.

The most disappointing fact to me is the similarity in hacking the sites (or rather the design of the sites).
A great example, how exploring and hacking should be, are the sleeper caches - they are so awesome!

Fly safe and kindest regards from the EvE-Scouts and all members of the Signal Cartel!
Valder Ripley o7

Do not go gentle into that good night,

though wise men at their end know dark is right,

rage, rage against the dying of the light.

J0rj Lmoz
Rawbot.
#126 - 2015-10-09 20:48:19 UTC


Just end the Cherry Picking and make the containers immune to cargo scanners.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2015-10-10 11:35:17 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Also as I have been suggesting since the change there must be some form of danger in Data and Relic sites, this would also help to make the sites valuable again as not all players would make it out with there loot, it doesn't need to be in the form of rats but some sort of danger and chance of losing the ship needs to be there, the sleeper sites were a good example of how to make a profitable sites with mostly environmental dangers.


The danger in the sites largely comes from other players. This is a good thing.

Adding some environmental damage is a bad idea, since you just limit what ships the hunters can use.

Most explorers usually lose ships on there way to the site or on there way back to sell the loot, as I have previously stated, most explorers who are doing a hacking site find it a bad practice to do any hacking containers if they are not alone in the system.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kayden Katelo
Doomheim
#128 - 2015-10-10 19:05:56 UTC
Cargo Scanners: For data sites, yes. For relic sites, no. Flavor should also be considered. As an archaeologist how could I possibly scan a site (can) and know what is in it? Surely immersion counts for something?

Regarding relic sites, why not include in the loot tables the "texts" that can be found from other PvE activity that describes the various histories of the factions in New Eden? Again to add flavor and further enhance the lore.

Relic and Data modules: I have mentioned this before and will do so again. There was a time when these modules meant something. Their differences actually meant something. Odyssey has homogenized them. Do not blend them into a single module. Iterate on them. Make relic sites OLD. Even a reskinning of the mini game would be an improvement.

Actually, why am I hacking a relic site? Should I not be unearthing that which was lost and forgotten? DO not take away from the game, add to it and iterate.

There was a time what exploration was hard with a high barrier for entry. This kept loot values high. YOu had to choose how far you where going to invest in the profession. There was flavor. Over time changes where made that reduced the "busy" work. This was good. Odyssey then removed the barrier for entry. OK. Everyone can explore. Goal obtained.

Now, lets think about the veterans. Lets consider those that have been playing for more than five plus years. Time to make some elements of exploration hard again please.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#129 - 2015-10-11 10:19:49 UTC
Kayden Katelo wrote:
Regarding relic sites, why not include in the loot tables the "texts" that can be found from other PvE activity that describes the various histories of the factions in New Eden? Again to add flavor and further enhance the lore.(...)Actually, why am I hacking a relic site? Should I not be unearthing that which was lost and forgotten? DO not take away from the game, add to it and iterate...

Relic sites are actually salvaging sites, you don't discover anything there.
Kayden Katelo wrote:
Now, lets think about the veterans. Lets consider those that have been playing for more than five plus years. Time to make some elements of exploration hard again please.

They did. Sleepers sites are for more experienced players.
Kayden Katelo wrote:
There was a time what exploration was hard with a high barrier for entry. This kept loot values high. YOu had to choose how far you where going to invest in the profession. There was flavor. Over time changes where made that reduced the "busy" work. This was good. Odyssey then removed the barrier for entry. OK. Everyone can explore. Goal obtained.

I agree with you here, but loot from sites is used in economy, for example rigs are more usefull now (it's good for everybody). NPC buy orders make "blue loot" from sleepers site more or less stable (just depend how many you found them).

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#130 - 2015-10-11 10:28:04 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Note: The similarities of the Data and Relic hacking game are known, as is the Cargo Scanning/Cherry Picking of containers.

It would be nice to see some variation between data and relic sites, although I don't see any reason to remove the ability to cargo scan the containers.

Some people like to blitz missions for the LP and others like to run them and salvage all the wrecks. I don't see any reason to remove this and along the same lines I don't see any reason to remove options for running exploration sites.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#131 - 2015-10-11 10:33:05 UTC
Valder Ripley wrote:
Well, as a dedicated explorer I don´t care too much about the content of loot - I always expect nothing and I never would use a cargo scanner for cherry picking, because I would miss the excitement of the unexpected Blink

Quite the opposite. If you scan the container first and find a faction tower or such then you will feel a similar kind of rush that you would get in PvP when you are hacking the container (especially if someone else jumps into system while you are in the middle of the hack).

Why take away options to run exploration sites. If you don't like cargo scanning then you don't have to do so, but there is no need to remove it for others that do prefer to.
Kayden Katelo
Doomheim
#132 - 2015-10-11 18:06:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayden Katelo
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Relic sites are actually salvaging sites, you don't discover anything there.


And it is this that is missing the point. Iterate.

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
They did. Sleepers sites are for more experienced players.


That is true. It is also formulaic. Why not develop procedural based sites? Something that cannot be documented and standard operating procedures created for.

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
I agree with you here, but loot from sites is used in economy, for example rigs are more usefull now (it's good for everybody). NPC buy orders make "blue loot" from sleepers site more or less stable (just depend how many you found them).


Loot can be used for whatever the player desires. Economic gain is a major factor but does not need to be the only thing to consider.
Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
#133 - 2015-10-11 18:34:03 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
What are the thoughts on things like volatile pieces of wreckage in Relic sites which can explode and damage the ship, or corrosive gas clouds to slowly damage the entering ship to include some danger to the site.

Or for Data sites, an alarm unit that unless successfully hack will alert rats, or deploy mines to safe guard the data containers.


I'm all for changes like this that increase the demand on player ability and potentially harm them if mistakes are made.
As long as they're fair.

An alarm based Defensive Subsystem inside the hacking UI was one of the initial goals that had to be dropped due to time constraints, but it's something I would like to see revisited in the future.
A relic based alternative is something I would like to do in tandem with that change.




I am not a relic/data runner myself, but I do notice many new players engaging in the activity and it's also one of the income faucets that draws new players into more dangerous space. This is, I think, a great thing since it encourages players to get their feet wet in what many consider as the 'real EVE experience' . Here they learn how to survive in the dog-eat-dog universe.

It would be nice, however, if the data/relic loot drops could be diversified a little to include some really great sites in dangerous space which entail low risk to run (bearing in mind that mostly newer players engage in the activity - they won't have a fully armed T3 cruiser on the case).

Consider placing some special modules into the highest tiers of relic and data sites, with a focus on data in particular - there is ample room for new 'faction grade' modules where currently no such variants are available. I list a few examples below:

Blueprints for faction micro jump drives
Drone implants (yes I know it's controversial, but surely drone speed and drone endurance can be done without impacting ship balance significantly)
Some future skill books which will not be seeded onto the market?

It is important that any upgrade to these sites does not simply adjust the quantities of what they already drop, otherwise the only effects will be to shift preference from one type of site to the other or simply manipulate the market value of the dropped items and thus no effect on the engaging player's experience. Coming up with novel items to place into these sites is one means to ensure buyer demand.

At present the higher end sites do not stand out sufficiently from the lower end ones. There's little to call 'unique' about them, to excite the discoverer that he/she might be in for a treat when they see it pop up on their scan.

Kayden Katelo
Doomheim
#134 - 2015-10-11 18:57:00 UTC
I have said in various threads that iteration of existing modules and mechanics is the solution to creating a more rich and dynamic playing environment. Unfortunately I have not been providing ideas for this. Let me correct that now. So let me toss out this idea for people to mull over because in this thread there is an active CCP reader and two CSM readers.

In the distant past archology in EvE was a thing. That evolved into Relic sites. As was pointed out, nothing to discover there just collect your loot. You see, we do not need salvagers on our ships anymore. Once upon that was a thing.

I see an interesting opportunity arising very soon. EvE has all these beautiful planets and some of those have moons. Moons served two purposes: Harvesting and Player Owned Station anchoring. Soon the POS requirements will not need moons unless you are harvesting (unless that is also being changed).

One of the contributing factors to null sec stagnation is that moon resources are stagnant. Moon scans completed years ago are still relevant now as then (Check out Dotlan an scan a moon. It's still the same. Don't take my word for it. Try it). Alliances settled in moon rich regions and fortified them to protect their economies. There have been many fights over moon ownership. Let us kick the ant hill and take a page out of PI: Moon resources are finite. A moon’s resources last no more than four to six months depending on the intensity of the harvesting. Now the moon is barren, economically unsustainable and will require double or triple the time to recover.

Now I need to go a scan other moons to find what I need. I have to actively seek the resources I need. Or I could hire someone. Maybe my alliance has explorers that can do this.

Planets and moons are interesting heavenly bodies. In our own time we are discovering absolutely fascinating things about them. SciFi writers also imagine amazing things about them. Archaeology would fit beautifully here. Scan a system and discover a cosmic signature. Is it a data site in space? Is it a relic site to be salvage? Could it be an archaeology site on a moon or planet?

Surface based sites on moons could require a player to go into orbit, scan to pinpoint the site’s location and once found require a “dig” (variation of the hacking mini game?) to be executed with a chance of loot recovered.

How about all those planets with abandoned PI facilities? Maybe the archaeology signature brings you to a planet. Maybe ice or barren or temperate planets have a great change of archaeology sites? Maybe you can attempt to recover abandoned PI related facilities or loot for economic gain.

TLDR:

Five exploration career variations:

1) Data site recovery. Space based. Data analyzer
2) Relic site recovery. Space based. Salvager (add a mini game variation is desired)
3) Archaeology recover. Surface based. Relic analyzer (add mini game variation)
4) Resources discovery. Moon scans as already being (been) conducted. Service or results to be sold.
5) Mini game for hacking unoccupied POSes (citadels). This is closely related to data recovery. Mini game could be a real challenge. Might make hacking tools something that an explorer could build for themselves if not a market item to be bought and sold.

Finally, remove the 4au spawn restriction. There was a time you need to warp to each planet, use the onboard 4au scanner to determine if anything was about. Over time this was changed to eventually evolve into the Discovery Scanner. Now that the Discovery Scanner is so powerful, why have the old 4au restriction? After all Citadels can be deployed anywhere within a system.

These are the ideas. They can be expanded upon, refined or scraped. One thing is for sure, the basic game mechanics already exist. Why not take advantage of them. Expand exploration into a proper career choice that it once was before Odyssey.
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#135 - 2015-10-11 23:21:07 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:


The intention of this change is to hopefully boost the overall value of all Data sites, increase the manufacturing of Storyline modules, increase the demand for Cosmos site blueprints and increase the value of the most commonly dropped building materials.

CCP RedDawn



I might be missing something in your post, but how will these change encourage manufacturing more Storyline modules?

I know some of them are useful and sell well, but others are simply not worth the effort/time/resources. I have a bunch of BPCs and parts that have been sitting in my hangar for (I think) about nine years. It might be that I've just been unlucky in picking up things like 'Balefire' rocket launchers that are supposedly Meta 6 but are actually Meta 1 with a fancy green blob, but at the moment there is no incentive to go and pick up the (expensive) skills and rare parts necessary to build them.

So in order to achieve your objective, could you do something interesting with Storyline modules to give players a better reason to seek / build / buy them ? Instead of reduced fitting requirements how about changing their characteristics?

E.g. Shield resistance mods that protect against two damage types, but only at (say) 40%, i.e. half way between the specific hardener and the adaptive variant?

E.g. Armour reinforcement plating that also gives a bonus to structure HP

E.g. Gas cloud harvesters that give a bonus to collection rate for booster gases (but not fullerenes)

E.g. ECM modules that are effective against two sensor types. At the moment why would I buy a Storyline version which is less effective and more difficult to fit that a Meta 4 variant? It's not worth the slot space.


Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#136 - 2015-10-12 07:29:31 UTC
Kayden Katelo wrote:
stuff

More exploration in exploration
"Dinsdale cloud" <- I miss this guy
There were also exploration project tied with WiS. Avatar exploration like in one of fanfest trailers (2012).
Kayden Katelo wrote:
Why not develop procedural based sites? Something that cannot be documented and standard operating procedures created for.

I asking that question for a long time now, it's some technical problem I think.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2015-10-12 07:30:26 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
What are the thoughts on things like volatile pieces of wreckage in Relic sites which can explode and damage the ship, or corrosive gas clouds to slowly damage the entering ship to include some danger to the site.

Or for Data sites, an alarm unit that unless successfully hack will alert rats, or deploy mines to safe guard the data containers.


I'm all for changes like this that increase the demand on player ability and potentially harm them if mistakes are made.
As long as they're fair.

An alarm based Defensive Subsystem inside the hacking UI was one of the initial goals that had to be dropped due to time constraints, but it's something I would like to see revisited in the future.
A relic based alternative is something I would like to do in tandem with that change.



Make it so.... Big smile

No Worries

Fenix Inferni
Dark Fenix Rising
#138 - 2015-10-12 11:22:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Fenix Inferni
Finally some rebalance of data sites !
Was talking to a friend only couple weeks ago that BPC shouldn't drop in relic :)

However i'd move even Rigs BPCs from relic to data while leaving the most commonly used building materials as they are (halve the drop is still good in my opinion) and move the ancient construction parts to relic sites only, that simply makes more sense:

Data site --> Research --> BPC/Common building materials/Decryptors/Datacores
Relic site --> Wrecks/Archeological discoveries --> Salvage/Ancient Construction Parts

Even chance of some danger in signatures is nice idea, just it should be related to the ship used to run/trigger them (that will still allow low skilled characters -new players-) to do explo.

Just my 2 cents

o7
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2015-10-12 11:25:30 UTC
We lost out sticky status :(

To our CSM members and the dev team who is in charge of PVE, is there any point where you might look to form a focus group to look at the overall state of exploration?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#140 - 2015-10-12 11:37:46 UTC
Thank you all for your awesome feedback, concerns and ideas here. They are all very much appreciated and have been noted.
Some very valuable points raised through out and I'm sure that together we'll get exploration to a wonderful state in the near future.

Team Genesis