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[December] Missile Disruptors and Tweaks to Missile Guidance Mods

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Author
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Leviathan Rising
Fortis Et Certus
#421 - 2015-11-09 02:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodmyst Ranwar
Because the current T3D/Garmur/Orthrus/Rapid Missile Systems meta isn't already a "balance nightmare."
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Leviathan Rising
Fortis Et Certus
#422 - 2015-11-09 02:38:38 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
Ewar in utility highs? That won't totally imbalance EWAR hulls and make for hilarious situations where you completely lockdown literally everything you run into.

Seriously though the midslot limitation is part of balance. They generally contain things that lock down an enemy either by stabbing them, webbing them, or preventing them from dictating the fight the way they might otherwise choose to. If you take any of these items and expand them outside of the midslot with exclusivity you will automatically grant whatever that item is an insane buff via power creep. The choice to fit that item suddenly becomes very easy and thus the risk associated with NOT having said item along goes away as well.

I'm sorry but highslot EWAR without making literally everything highslot would just make a balance nightmare.


Because the current T3D/Garmur/Orthrus/Rapid Missile Systems meta isn't already a "balance nightmare."


And if the point you are trying to make is in fact true, is it really that hard to prevent EWAR hulls from fitting these in their high slots?

Take a moment, take EWAR hulls out of the equation. Now do you really think it will be that much of a problem?
Zakks
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#423 - 2015-11-09 06:47:01 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
Ewar in utility highs? That won't totally imbalance EWAR hulls and make for hilarious situations where you completely lockdown literally everything you run into.

Seriously though the midslot limitation is part of balance. They generally contain things that lock down an enemy either by stabbing them, webbing them, or preventing them from dictating the fight the way they might otherwise choose to. If you take any of these items and expand them outside of the midslot with exclusivity you will automatically grant whatever that item is an insane buff via power creep. The choice to fit that item suddenly becomes very easy and thus the risk associated with NOT having said item along goes away as well.

I'm sorry but highslot EWAR without making literally everything highslot would just make a balance nightmare.


Because the current T3D/Garmur/Orthrus/Rapid Missile Systems meta isn't already a "balance nightmare."


And if the point you are trying to make is in fact true, is it really that hard to prevent EWAR hulls from fitting these in their high slots?

Take a moment, take EWAR hulls out of the equation. Now do you really think it will be that much of a problem?


I think Drone-boats would become massively OP with your idea of ewar in the highslots. That's just one hull meta. I can think of other OP fittings with highslot ewar too, none of which are natural ewar ships. Your idea might work for your limited use, but will unbalance too many other ships.
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#424 - 2015-11-09 12:14:18 UTC
When can we expect these to be on SiSi for testing?
Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
Externa Group
#425 - 2015-11-10 10:23:38 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
If they're going to use the same skills/bonuses as Tracking Disruptors, why not just use missile disruption scripts for the existing Tracking Disruptors instead of a new module?

As always ( Blink ), my thinking here is geared toward small gang, who while roaming are not going to know if they're going to be facing turret ships or missile ships until they're facing them.


No, this would make TD mandatory on unbonused hulls and nerf ships with low number of mid slots even more.
Novice FW plexes would be Hookbill online.
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#426 - 2015-11-12 03:23:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks thanks for the feedback so far. To answer a few of the common questions:

Q: Why make separate modules instead of using a script on existing TDs?
A: We believe that the script method would make TDs too powerful. Using separate modules means that weapon disruption ships can hedge their bets by fitting a spread of TDs and MDs, but that they'll have smaller numbers of each.


What Day One of Amarr Championships told us?

1) never bring TD *even on bonussed hulls* vs guaranteed opponent's turret setup, you'll be better off with ECM/dumps or one more DPS ship.
2) Unbonussed TD? Why even bother?
3) If you *belive in TDs* and bring it in its perfect matchup, enjoy its uselessness and get rekd by unbonussed ECM or one more line ship that ignoring your EWAR by just pressing "keep at 500"

Idame Isqua
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#427 - 2015-11-12 15:16:26 UTC
Mad Abbat wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks thanks for the feedback so far. To answer a few of the common questions:

Q: Why make separate modules instead of using a script on existing TDs?
A: We believe that the script method would make TDs too powerful. Using separate modules means that weapon disruption ships can hedge their bets by fitting a spread of TDs and MDs, but that they'll have smaller numbers of each.


What Day One of Amarr Championships told us?

1) never bring TD *even on bonussed hulls* vs guaranteed opponent's turret setup, you'll be better off with ECM/dumps or one more DPS ship.
2) Unbonussed TD? Why even bother?
3) If you *belive in TDs* and bring it in its perfect matchup, enjoy its uselessness and get rekd by unbonussed ECM or one more line ship that ignoring your EWAR by just pressing "keep at 500"



Did you know TD also has a tracking script?

Try orbiting at 500m instead of keeping at range with that bad boy loaded.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#428 - 2015-11-12 15:19:47 UTC
Idame Isqua wrote:
Mad Abbat wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks thanks for the feedback so far. To answer a few of the common questions:

Q: Why make separate modules instead of using a script on existing TDs?
A: We believe that the script method would make TDs too powerful. Using separate modules means that weapon disruption ships can hedge their bets by fitting a spread of TDs and MDs, but that they'll have smaller numbers of each.


What Day One of Amarr Championships told us?

1) never bring TD *even on bonussed hulls* vs guaranteed opponent's turret setup, you'll be better off with ECM/dumps or one more DPS ship.
2) Unbonussed TD? Why even bother?
3) If you *belive in TDs* and bring it in its perfect matchup, enjoy its uselessness and get rekd by unbonussed ECM or one more line ship that ignoring your EWAR by just pressing "keep at 500"



Did you know TD also has a tracking script?

Try orbiting at 500m instead of keeping at range with that bad boy loaded.

ECM burst.. Your dead.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Idame Isqua
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#429 - 2015-11-12 15:21:21 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

ECM burst.. Your dead.


Lol who gets jammed

Bads that's who
Shitposting Forum Alt
Doomheim
#430 - 2015-11-14 01:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shitposting Forum Alt
This is so irrational. The whole point of missiles vs turrets was that they were different. Now youve got missile tracking computers and missile tracking disruptors? That doesn't make any sense. Why even have missiles?
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#431 - 2015-11-14 13:45:13 UTC
Shitposting Forum Alt wrote:
This is so irrational. The whole point of missiles vs turrets was that they were different. Now youve got missile tracking computers and missile tracking disruptors? That doesn't make any sense. Why even have missiles?


because the turret crybabies have whined for so long that ccp has finally caved in.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#432 - 2015-11-16 09:39:48 UTC
Mad Abbat wrote:

1) never bring TD *even on bonussed hulls* vs guaranteed opponent's turret setup, you'll be better off with ECM/dumps or one more DPS ship.
2) Unbonussed TD? Why even bother?
3) If you *belive in TDs* and bring it in its perfect matchup, enjoy its uselessness and get rekd by unbonussed ECM or one more line ship that ignoring your EWAR by just pressing "keep at 500"


1. If your bonused TD isn't working, you're doing it wrong.

2. agreed.

3a. unbonused ECM overpowered too huh? Dear Lord, please stay off the paranoia cereals for a week or so. Yes it does land the occasional jam. It is after all chance based. That chance however is very slim, so you are complaining said module does its job every once in a blue moon? I for one wouldn't count on a lone unbonused ECM to save my life.

3b. "keep at 500" improves tracking. It also makes You easier to hit for the very same reason. Your argument mainly illustrates your utter lack of comprehension on how to properly use a tracking disruptor. I'll walk you through it in a nutshell:

against short-range weapons, use Optimal Range scripts. Watch DPS markedly go down.
against long-range weapons, use Tracking Disruption scripts. Watch snipers hit for ****.
against being unable to keep the enemy at range, use the appropriate module - eg Web, scram. A Tracking disruptor cannot save you when neither tracking speed nor optimal range can be disrupted. When that is the case, the culprit is poor range dictation. Fit nano, dualprop, secundary web, polycarbon engine housing but don't expect the TD to simply "invalidate that guy's turrets over there". As you pointed out: the savvy pilot can and will work around it. Even if that means setting himself up to receive more damage from you.

To be entirely honest, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make... but I think I hear somebody complaining becoz Falcon. Allow me to raise one last counter-argument to set the record straight. Crucifiers, Arbitrators, Curses and Pilgrims deal decent DPS, supported by TD for defense. Yes you read the correct: the TD is essentially part of their tank. Griffins, Blackbirds, Rooks and Falcons on the other hand do bubkes for damage. Zilch. Nada. They are paperthin to boot. Their ONLY purpose is to ECM the everloving crap out of everything, and it takes no less than 4 mids, 2 lows and 2 rigs to really start packing a punch. What it boils down to, is that one should not only judge the module, but also the hull this module is intended for. I will grant you that Tracking Disruptors have a less dramatic impact than ECMs, although combined with the shiphull this balances out quite nicely.

TDs are okay. They're not magic, nor are they intended to be. If you claim you can't see a tangible difference with or without, then please get out of the Crucifier's cockpit and let someone else drive it for you.
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#433 - 2015-11-17 09:30:30 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
[quote=Mad Abbat]
TDs are okay. They're not magic, nor are they intended to be. If you claim you can't see a tangible difference with or without, then please get out of the Crucifier's cockpit and let someone else drive it for you.



wtf is that wall of stupidity.

Look at replays in AT, and recent Amarr championships.

How many TDs in AT?
dumps - check
ECM - check
Webs - check
TPs - check

TD? lolwut is that.

AC is a perfect mathup for TD and guess what? Nobody bothers with bringging it, beacasue its garbage and subpar choice, and if team does, that team ends up kicked out by sane people.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#434 - 2015-11-17 12:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Mad Abbat wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
[quote=Mad Abbat]
TDs are okay. They're not magic, nor are they intended to be. If you claim you can't see a tangible difference with or without, then please get out of the Crucifier's cockpit and let someone else drive it for you.



wtf is that wall of stupidity.

Look at replays in AT, and recent Amarr championships.

How many TDs in AT?
dumps - check
ECM - check
Webs - check
TPs - check

TD? lolwut is that.

AC is a perfect mathup for TD and guess what? Nobody bothers with bringging it, beacasue its garbage and subpar choice, and if team does, that team ends up kicked out by sane people.



Because scheduled tournaments with rules, limited points, limited pilots, ship bans and a 100km radius arena are so representative of the overall meta of the game. Right.

TDS are fine. They're good enough as is and we definitely don't need a "one module fits all" thing going on with missile scripts on a single TD module.

Edit: Since you seem to believe TDS would be perfect in tournaments, let me explain why they're not.

Reasons to use TDS:
They neuter turret ships.

Reasons not to use TDs: missiles and drones are a thing, and unless the enemy DPS is exclusively turrets you've picked an inefficient EWar.

Reasons to use other Ewar:
TPs: they make enemy ships bigger, letting literally every weapon type apply damage more effectively to any ship.
Webs: slow down enemy support keeping it from getting into range of your DPS, slow down any ship increasing the damage application of every weapon type.
Damps: force enemy snipers into close range, shut off enemy support, force logi in closer, complete range control. This is even more powerful given you get to choose warp in range.
ECM: have a chance to shut off any target at any range. This is extremely powerful, but completely RNG dependent.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#435 - 2015-11-17 15:30:39 UTC
Mad Abbat wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
[quote=Mad Abbat]
TDs are okay. They're not magic, nor are they intended to be. If you claim you can't see a tangible difference with or without, then please get out of the Crucifier's cockpit and let someone else drive it for you.



wtf is that wall of stupidity.

Look at replays in AT, and recent Amarr championships.

How many TDs in AT?
dumps - check
ECM - check
Webs - check
TPs - check

TD? lolwut is that.

AC is a perfect mathup for TD and guess what? Nobody bothers with bringging it, beacasue its garbage and subpar choice, and if team does, that team ends up kicked out by sane people.




how many long points where used in at?
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#436 - 2015-11-17 16:21:50 UTC
Mad Abbat wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
[quote=Mad Abbat]
TDs are okay. They're not magic, nor are they intended to be. If you claim you can't see a tangible difference with or without, then please get out of the Crucifier's cockpit and let someone else drive it for you.



wtf is that wall of stupidity.

Look at replays in AT, and recent Amarr championships.

How many TDs in AT?
dumps - check
ECM - check
Webs - check
TPs - check

TD? lolwut is that.

AC is a perfect mathup for TD and guess what? Nobody bothers with bringging it, beacasue its garbage and subpar choice, and if team does, that team ends up kicked out by sane people.


I always love replies where not one thing I said is addressed ;-) You didn't bring a TD so it sucks balls? Yup. I can totally see that. I didn't bring a Gila either so you can imagine what a crappy boat it is. I'll be honest: I didn't watch the tournament. Because burn empire burn. But I have been an EWAR pilot since like forever, so please do tell me what You think is wrong with the TD in its current state. Not what you've seen on television or whatnot -- did you personally use it, and if so, how did it fail you?

I'll give you another thing to ponder: is there any situation where TDs (on their appropriate hull, mind you) trump other EWARs? Sure there is! Brawling comes to mind. ECM? Too thin. Damps? May hinder target acquisition somewhat, but again nope. Target Painters? Yeah, that helps; although you'll rely on someone else to apply the deeps. Tracking Disruptors? Boss! Good tanks, good damage output, mitigates incoming damage ... what's not to love?

Here's another one: TDs are generally more useful in small gangs, where you don't have enough numbers to make damps count or you'd lose too much DPS in dedicated EWAR pilots. Quite useful against larger ships whose tracking is already struggling, yet which also happen to have targeting range in abundance.

Now, to get back on topic: if one were to include missile disruption scripts into TDs as well, they would be too versatile and start overpowering the other EWARs.

(and no, a simple reference to a match where allegedly no TD was used won't talk you out of this one son. "lolwut" is about as useful as not posting at all). Good day to you too, Sir.
Esnaelc Sin'led
La Forge.
Toilet Paper.
#437 - 2015-11-19 11:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Esnaelc Sin'led
Are you planning on adding med slots for specialised Tracking Disruptive boats ?
Or isn't it better to just add new scripts, and not new modules ?
Or is it to leave players chose carefully which modules they fit.

I remember as a new player who chose Amarr i always asked myself why my Crucifier had no Missile Disruption, good addition to the game !
For once, unlike drones, you seem to anticipate WAYYY earlier the "missile meta" growing up those days. (along with tweaks on Mordus Legion ships).
+1
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#438 - 2015-11-19 17:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:
Are you planning on adding med slots for specialised Tracking Disruptive boats ?
Or isn't it better to just add new scripts, and not new modules ?
Or is it to leave players chose carefully which modules they fit.

I remember as a new player who chose Amarr i always asked myself why my Crucifier had no Missile Disruption, good addition to the game !
For once, unlike drones, you seem to anticipate WAYYY earlier the "missile meta" growing up those days. (along with tweaks on Mordus Legion ships).
+1


3rd option more than likely. They're already going to receive additions to their bonuses to include MD's once they are released, no reason to give them extra mids considering how powerful these will be unbonused versus a missile boat. The choice of having a seperate MD module versus a script for TD's has already been addressed.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#439 - 2015-11-21 04:17:21 UTC
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
Question, why not have one module? The current Disruptors, but with this added functionality. Or a missile script. Especially if you are going for solo PVP I imagine this is a bit weird. You fit one module for all turrets, except for missiles. Now you have to choose which disruptor module to fit. All other EWAR is 'across the board', why is this designed for missiles only?

I see how it creates fitting options and more choices but I am genuinely interested in the thought proces behind creating a new module for this :)

Basically, there is less tactical variation and decision behind putting together the ewar for your gang/fleet if it's all the same thing. Missiles are already fairly balanced without ANY form of disruption, and already struggle in their competition vs guns; expanding ewar coverage to slam their effectiveness into the ground with a single blindly-fit weapon disruption platform would be a significant nerf.

And to CCP: Sounds good, I like this decision. Any news on the possibility of remote missile guidance to go alongside remote tracking computers, with accompanied bonuses on the Minmatar and Gallente logistics?

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#440 - 2015-11-21 05:23:53 UTC
May have already been answered, but I assume that the optimal range and falloff of these new missile disruptors are the same as with the current turret disruptors, given they will be using the same skills.

Much the same with fitting requirements, are they going to be much the same as what the turret disruptors are? I would like to think so.