EVE General Discussion

There's a very real barrier with skills. Using a ship or mod you haven't trained has a time barrier preventing it's use. That's the barrier being removed for certain items being considered part of what I suppose is being thought of as a basic capability.

The issue being addressed is that for those "basics" the momentum of the early game is being broken because no amount of knowledge or practice gets around the fact that there is a baseline timeframe to wait.

Regarding indestructible implants, SP isn't the issue. The increased SP is a side effect of increased starting abilities because those abilities they wanted to add are skill gated. It's not supposed to change how quickly one gains additional SP or direct into better informed decisions after creation. None of those are goals here from what I can tell.

Absolutely not. The first month, they can still do the tutorial as is (or was). They can still do the career agents. They can still do the SOE epic arc. They can still do lvl1 missions if they choose. They can still join a corp and run tackle or scout. It's all the same stuff they can do later over time, epic arcs, careers, missions, corp roles, no barriers. That is all in the mind. SP prevents nothing, and training skill teaches mechanics and planning.

Now what, gotta make lvl1 mission harder? Make SOE epic arc harder? Otherwise it's just a turkey shoot, no challenge, and for people looking for a challenge this becomes boring and they leave. Then when it starts to get challenging for those that stayed, and they need to think and plan, the game becomes something they didn't want, it's not so easy any longer. Now they just sit on their hands and complain to CCP that things need to start being easier like when they started. Already enough of that as it is now, don't need more.

Come on, nobody waits a month to do the tutorial. They want to do the tutorial within a couple hours, and for the first day there is a very real barrier posed by the absence of skills.

SoE epic arc is a very nice tutorial. Should be more like it. It teaches everything from learning how to move around the map, to some of the tougher fits vs. bosses that can neut or that require a certain level of DPS, to asking for help and socializing a little bit if you need it.

In 2008 we started with frigate 4 and VERY close to T2 frigate weapons making cross training (newbie made character, then decided that he wanted to fly a different race resulting in a reroll) a silly thing to do as you lost so much time over it.

Nothing worse than chatting with a rookie in help, explaining him the differences and him coming to the conclusion that he wants to fly something different. If you then have to tell him "well, it just makes sense to reroll due to the skills you have" and "oh yeah, deleting your character takes 10 hours so you can't use the name you've chosen unless you like waiting lol" that's probably not very good for newbie retention.


I don't see a problem with giving them frigate 3 and related stuff, but it would make sense to not focus it too much on race.

Strawman argument as I never said would tackle from initial login. Although, how long does it take to get into a condor which is a first ship for tackling? How long does it take to use a scrambler? How long does it take to use a webifier? That's 0m+25m+25m = 50 minutes of total training time. Srslly??

No I just see squirming around the obvious, around the logical, for benefit of vets that want more SP at rolling alts. That's it. Nothin more. Other games do it, like GW2, you can acquire scrolls to put on alts. You can hit lvl80 in moments with an alt, easily. They have no idea how to play that class/character, but ding-ding-ding they can stand around the bank and look real cool. No idea what they are doin, but just awesomeness dripping from every digit of their level number. In EVE, they should be torn to shreds by belt rats and spit out for other players to loot while the tears well up for a tasty treat. That's just not EVE, never should even move in that direction, not an inch. *waves hand* these aren't the players you are looking for.

The fact that they can tackle, mission, most anything they want to do from day one remains. The game really never changes from the first day, the first week nor the first month. No barriers, no depravity, they can do what they want to do, and at this point still gain the knowledge of how to actually do what they want to do which takes some study and reasoning skills. Void of that you only progress something like GW2, which became an easy hand-out ghost town, another failure of a game; challenges removed, casual play ultimately rejected.

It takes longer than 50minutes to even find a corp to join to really use those tackle skills to their greatest potential. If they managed to join a newbie friendly corp like karmafleet or brave, well they have all they need first login, and easily/quickly acquire the skills they need to contribute. And if they took the time to do the tutorial, the career agents and also the epic arc, it would no more qualify them to join such a corp had it been from day one.

It's just ridiculous, doesn't benefit newbies one bit, just makes it easier for them when it should not be. A better tutorial would be the best thing for them, not throwing SP at them, where they lose the benefit of being challenged to excel in a game that can be very unforgiving. It doesn't change that, only sets them up for greater tears in the future as they lose more expensive equipment not knowing the basics of the game.

I'm missing something here I guess. 400k SP in predetermined skills is a hard sell to compare to max leveling in other games. We're talking a difference of ~7days effective training in preselected skills. We're not giving away the advanced stuff. We're not doing even remotely near anything you described in your first paragraph. That seems like a gross mischaracterization unless you believe that having a new player be able to fit a web that falls off a rat without having to spend an hour training it, breaking the flow of early gameplay, somehow makes that player in some tangible way less suited for the game.

The fact of the matter is, what the can POTENTIALLY do on day one is rarely what they will actually be able to do since getting there for some of the more basic mods isn't grated currently. You have to know what you are looking for before you know what the reason you need it for early basic skills to not be a barrier. That may mean that you don't fit that tackle in 50 min. It may not be for a week or even a month because your initial experience was different. But whenever you find you need it, it's still that same 50 min away.

And who cares how long it takes to find a corp? That's totally irrelevant unless we're arguing the best form of NPE is to have new players literally do nothing till they find one. That they won't be used to the best potential is irrelevant, because not being able to act at all to any effect ensures they don't invest the time even looking for a corp.

I'm not sure where the idea it sets them up for loss comes from either. They aren't being given the skills for advanced tools. They still need to navigate the skill tree to unlock more advanced tools, which means they still need to learn the skill system. That doesn't change. That you get a few more starting skills doesn't lessen that. It actually gives you more options to play with, evaluate and understand. Nothing actually supports the idea of greater loss potential or less game understanding.

It feels like you've been away from being a new player for way too long considering the claims you're making. To say that it doesn't help new players to be able to act from first login and rather have a players use in a variety of starter activities hinge upon a several days of right decisions in a game that allows its new players to strike out on their own without direction misses the point of this even being a sandbox IMHO. It very much states there is a single right path and deviation from it despite having no way to know what it is is the single value of a players potential future worth.

Yes, I do spend most of my time here and F&I. That doesn't have anything to do with the merits of this change. My forum activity doesn't detract from my justification of my position. If you have something to respond to there I'll gladly continue responding to that but if you're just going to misdirect I think we're done.

No wait but we are talking about our feeling now right? I'm out of touch? And I put it back at you and now it's irrelevant? What was wrong with an honest conversation? We must explore our feelings hehehe
end of line, man. hah
but thx for the convo nontheless

No, we're not talking about feelings. We were talking about the new skillset that players will soon start with and our respective impressions of it. I made an observation, then you changed the topic to post count by subforum, then when called on how irrelevant that is, started on feelings.

I mean, if we are talking feelings now it seems I touched a nerve somehow, that much it would appear is true.