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All new characters will now start with ~400,000 skillpoints
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Memphis Baas
#81 - 2015-09-27 02:24:14 UTC
As a newbie, you find out on the first day of playing that you need approx. 10 million to buy the very basics of skill books, and approx. 100 million to flesh out your support and weapon skills up to cruiser/battlecruiser. It's only after the first 100 million is spent on skill books that the need for money is relaxed, because now you only need money for ships, IF you lose them.

350 k skill points is nothing, compared to trying to make 100 million with no skills trained.

Regarding removing skills, CCP could take all the skill books off the market, and insert them at 0 points (book injected but not trained) in everyone's head at character creation. That way you don't buy skills from the market, you just choose what to add to the queue. Not arguing it's a good or bad idea, just pointing out that they COULD do this.

They could also let veterans take some skill points out of their heads and gift them to newbies in the form of a memory card or whatever (100k SP, 1m SP gift cards), which would make attracting and recruiting newbies a lot more of a social interaction than it is now. This will probably affect the sale of characters, and might cause other problems (people emptying their heads to their alts and trashing their mains to avoid reputation loss), but there it is, as an idea.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#82 - 2015-09-27 08:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
wtf no, skillbooks do not cost that much.
Here's a list of basic and intermediate skills that will get you pretty well set up for mission running in a battleship.

Weapon Upgrades (80,000 ISK)
Advanced Weapon Upgrades (500,000 ISK)
Capacitor Management (170,000 ISK)
Capacitor Systems Operation (40,000 ISK)
Electronics Upgrades (100,000 ISK)
Energy Grid Upgrades (79,000 ISK)
Drones (20,000 ISK)
Drone Interfacing (500,000 ISK)
Drone Avionics (40,000 ISK)
Drone Durability (50,000 ISK)
Drone Navigation (100,000 ISK)
Light Drone Operation (50,000 ISK)
Medium Drone Operation (100,000 ISK)
Gallente Drone Specialization (9,000,000 ISK)
Hull Upgrades (60,000 ISK)
Repair Systems (30,000 ISK)
Medium Energy Turret (100,000 ISK)
Large Energy Turret (2,000,000 ISK)
Motion Prediction (60,000 ISK)
Rapid Firing (40,000 ISK)
Sharpshooter (80,000 ISK)
Trajectory Analysis (100,000 ISK)
Controlled Bursts (70,000 ISK)
Large Pulse Laser Specialization (9,000,000 ISK)
Acceleration Control (40,000 ISK)
Evasive Maneuvering (25,000 ISK)
Afterburner (22,500 ISK)
Fuel Conservation (30,000 ISK)
High Speed Maneuvering (340,000 ISK)
Warp Drive Operation (30,000 ISK)
Cybernetics (75,000 ISK)
Infomorph Psychology (1,000,000 ISK)
Shield Management (170,000 ISK)
Shield Upgrades (84,000 ISK)
Tactical Shield Manipulation (210,000 ISK)
Shield Compensation (120,000 ISK)
Target Management (100,000 ISK)
Signature Analysis (75,000 ISK)
Long Range Targeting (88,000 ISK)
Drone Sharpshooting (150,000 ISK)
Sentry Drone Interfacing (450,000 ISK)
Amarr Destroyer (100,000 ISK)
Amarr Cruiser (500,000 ISK)
Amarr Battlecruiser (1,000,000 ISK)
Amarr Battleship (4,000,000 ISK)


Cost: 30,978,500

This gets you set up very competently with one weapons system, one race's entire T1 subcapital combat line, and two types of tank. This is more than enough to get you well on your way to making ISK.

As you can see, the most expensive parts of these are the weapon specialization (9m each for large, 3m for medium, 1m for small, so 104m total for ALL of them, but previously you had to train small specialization to get to medium and medium to get to large whereas now you don't have to) and the drone specialization (9m each, 36m total) skills.

But if you'll notice, most of your basic skills are less than 100k ISK each.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#83 - 2015-09-27 08:53:26 UTC
You're dealing with a group of people who're accustomed to *ding!* LEVEL!! Auto-skill increase. Yay!

Here, we expect you to THINK about what you're doing. Spend TIME getting it done. (and the most difficult) BUDGET your FUNDAGE so you can GET THERE.

Waiting for a skill to train so I can use the ÜBER GEAR!!! THAT'S TOO HARD!!!

Mommy! Make the mean man stop! Sad

There just isn't anything that can be said!
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#84 - 2015-09-27 10:42:55 UTC
Zihao wrote:
Webvan wrote:
widgetman wrote:
You can give new players 20 mill sp , or even 50 mill sp.....it is knowledge of the game that will still not help them .....

Yep, exactly. This is an alt thing, does nothing for actual newbies. Fail with the npe and throwing SP around will make things better?
dumb


Anytime you want to sell me a 20-50mil sp character for nothing, I'll be glad to put that claim to the test.

Why for free? Just go buy one on character bazaar. But before you do, ask in ncqa forum if it's a good idea. Like everytime the topic comes up, most everyone says the same thing, that it's a terrible idea.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#85 - 2015-09-27 12:01:45 UTC
What new players need are goals, not skillpoints.

If CCP wants to capture more players, they need to stop trying to do this with a pure sandbox model, they need to roll out the sandpark model.
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2015-09-27 12:16:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
And EVE shouldn't change in that regard.

But with every year that passes, the barrier for entry becomes harder for new players. Which is why it's important to keep balancing said barrier.
Close, but not quite.

Every year that passes, the barrier looks higher because new players who aren't familiar with the skill system see how much total SP others have accumulated and think they have to match that, somehow. In truth, the barrier — if it exists at all — is constant. What this change does is primarily to remove all waiting time that was previously built into the tutorials, with some added combat preparedness for good measure. It's not even a week worth of training, but it is a week worth of actually sensible skills rather than the random confused jumble that might otherwise arise from that week.


Let me break this down to you.

Every year that passes, a greater percentage of the population acquires more power in the form of capitals, links, more alts, disposable income to fund more expensive ships while also forming stronger and stronger groups. Oh, and more alts.

Eventually it gets to the point where new player A sees this, understands this, and asks himself 'do I really want to spend the next two years going through hell and back to stand a chance against that?' and the answer will 99.99999% of the time be '**** that'.

How is someone who not only lacks the skill points and funding, but also the knowledge to use said tools going to stand a chance against the average PVP mentality in the game now? The advantage that older players have over newer players nowadays is absolutely crazy and easily makes for the worst new player experience in any game currently available.

New players should definitely not be spoon-fed, but at the very least allowing them to be remotely competitive would be a great start so they can have some success and find the motivation to stick around through said success.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#87 - 2015-09-27 12:26:37 UTC
Logan Revelore wrote:
sandpark model.

catlitter

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Memphis Baas
#88 - 2015-09-27 13:34:35 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
wtf no, skillbooks do not cost that much.
Here's a list of basic and intermediate skills that will get you pretty well set up for mission running in a battleship.
[...]
Cost: 30,978,500


Your list is what I'd consider the basics. At a glance, the list doesn't include armor and shield resistances, industrial hauler, the social skills that are nice for mission running, or basic trade skills. Also, pretty much everyone is advised to get some +2 or +3 implants to bring their training speed closer to the veterans', and may want to round up their character with the ability to probe for exploration content, overheat, and use T2 weapons.

In any case, my point was that a newbie has to go from 50 skills to 160+ in a short time immediately after character creation, and getting the money for that, whether 30 million or 100, is part of EVE's learning curve.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#89 - 2015-09-27 15:12:39 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
Let me break this down to you.

Every year that passes, a greater percentage of the population acquires more power in the form of capitals, links, more alts, disposable income to fund more expensive ships while also forming stronger and stronger groups. Oh, and more alts.

Eventually it gets to the point where new player A sees this, understands this, and asks himself 'do I really want to spend the next two years going through hell and back to stand a chance against that?' and the answer will 99.99999% of the time be '**** that'.

How is someone who not only lacks the skill points and funding, but also the knowledge to use said tools going to stand a chance against the average PVP mentality in the game now? The advantage that older players have over newer players nowadays is absolutely crazy and easily makes for the worst new player experience in any game currently available.

New players should definitely not be spoon-fed, but at the very least allowing them to be remotely competitive would be a great start so they can have some success and find the motivation to stick around through said success.



And every year I use the same handful of skillpoints to fly [insert ship here], regardless of how many total SP I have. Carrier 5 doesn't help you at all when you're flying a battlecruiser; all the drone skills in the world won't help you when you're flying a freighter.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#90 - 2015-09-27 15:27:02 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Raffael Ramirez wrote:
Good move!
Let them start with a million or 2 to get rid of the 'I need x amount of lvl5 skills to enjoy the game" mentality.



They'll just move the goal post you know. Now they'll say "I need JDC V to be able to PVP!!!"


LOL, more like all racial frigs & dessies V and all gunnery support skills IV.
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2015-09-27 15:36:18 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
Let me break this down to you.

Every year that passes, a greater percentage of the population acquires more power in the form of capitals, links, more alts, disposable income to fund more expensive ships while also forming stronger and stronger groups. Oh, and more alts.

Eventually it gets to the point where new player A sees this, understands this, and asks himself 'do I really want to spend the next two years going through hell and back to stand a chance against that?' and the answer will 99.99999% of the time be '**** that'.

How is someone who not only lacks the skill points and funding, but also the knowledge to use said tools going to stand a chance against the average PVP mentality in the game now? The advantage that older players have over newer players nowadays is absolutely crazy and easily makes for the worst new player experience in any game currently available.

New players should definitely not be spoon-fed, but at the very least allowing them to be remotely competitive would be a great start so they can have some success and find the motivation to stick around through said success.



And every year I use the same handful of skillpoints to fly [insert ship here], regardless of how many total SP I have. Carrier 5 doesn't help you at all when you're flying a battlecruiser; all the drone skills in the world won't help you when you're flying a freighter.


Coming from a Cata/F1 pusher that's rich and a great way to miss my point.

The point is, many more people have carrier alts, logi alts, link alts, more resources to fund more expensive ships with every year that passes, and you won't see them bringing a Caracal to fight a new player's Caracal, instead they will bring a Cerberus. Or three, with logi. And probably a Falcon too.

Maybe you can relate to how that doesn't really give the new guy a positive experience because he literally has zero access to any tools that could compete with that except for spending the next two years training skills, grinding ISK and 'we're just gonna have to blob that with overwhelming numbers'.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#92 - 2015-09-27 15:36:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
This skill point boost still won't decrease the chances of new pilots from quiting eve because the bittervets would see to it that their experience in eve would be an awful one.

The only way to bring in new pilots to eve for the long haul, would be for CCP to create a new server specifically catered for them that would allow them to transfer to TQ when they're ready for the hostile transition.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#93 - 2015-09-27 15:47:36 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
Coming from a Cata/F1 pusher that's rich and a great way to miss my point.

The point is, many more people have carrier alts, logi alts, link alts, more resources to fund more expensive ships with every year that passes, and you won't see them bringing a Caracal to fight a new player's Caracal, instead they will bring a Cerberus. Or three, with logi. And probably a Falcon too.

Maybe you can relate to how that doesn't really give the new guy a positive experience because he literally has zero access to any tools that could compete with that except for spending the next two years training skills, grinding ISK and 'we're just gonna have to blob that with overwhelming numbers'.


FWIW, I'm a 128 million+ main, and highsec ganking isn't the only thing I've done in this game.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#94 - 2015-09-27 15:52:42 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Raffael Ramirez wrote:
Good move!
Let them start with a million or 2 to get rid of the 'I need x amount of lvl5 skills to enjoy the game" mentality.



I second this emotion.

Eh, why not make it 10 M, so they will have a lot of choices available.



They would just be hunted down mercilessly by every bittervet in the game due to sheer jealousy.
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2015-09-27 16:00:50 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
Coming from a Cata/F1 pusher that's rich and a great way to miss my point.

The point is, many more people have carrier alts, logi alts, link alts, more resources to fund more expensive ships with every year that passes, and you won't see them bringing a Caracal to fight a new player's Caracal, instead they will bring a Cerberus. Or three, with logi. And probably a Falcon too.

Maybe you can relate to how that doesn't really give the new guy a positive experience because he literally has zero access to any tools that could compete with that except for spending the next two years training skills, grinding ISK and 'we're just gonna have to blob that with overwhelming numbers'.


FWIW, I'm a 128 million+ main, and highsec ganking isn't the only thing I've done in this game.


Yeah, you've also managed to F1 some structures in null. Good for you.

Stop pretending that the new player experience (at least when it comes to PVP) is positive, because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#96 - 2015-09-27 16:20:45 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
Yeah, you've also managed to F1 some structures in null. Good for you.

Stop pretending that the new player experience (at least when it comes to PVP) is positive, because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.


You sound a little bitter and seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions here. Did I blow your ship up or something? I've flown in fleets full of newbies, using newbie-friendly doctrine and people have had a great time. I've also lived in nullsec with recently ex-newbies who were just breaking in to battlecruisers.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#97 - 2015-09-27 16:35:49 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
And EVE shouldn't change in that regard.

But with every year that passes, the barrier for entry becomes harder for new players. Which is why it's important to keep balancing said barrier.
Close, but not quite.

Every year that passes, the barrier looks higher because new players who aren't familiar with the skill system see how much total SP others have accumulated and think they have to match that, somehow. In truth, the barrier — if it exists at all — is constant. What this change does is primarily to remove all waiting time that was previously built into the tutorials, with some added combat preparedness for good measure. It's not even a week worth of training, but it is a week worth of actually sensible skills rather than the random confused jumble that might otherwise arise from that week.


Let me break this down to you.

Every year that passes, a greater percentage of the population acquires more power in the form of capitals, links, more alts, disposable income to fund more expensive ships while also forming stronger and stronger groups. Oh, and more alts.

Eventually it gets to the point where new player A sees this, understands this, and asks himself 'do I really want to spend the next two years going through hell and back to stand a chance against that?' and the answer will 99.99999% of the time be '**** that'.

How is someone who not only lacks the skill points and funding, but also the knowledge to use said tools going to stand a chance against the average PVP mentality in the game now? The advantage that older players have over newer players nowadays is absolutely crazy and easily makes for the worst new player experience in any game currently available.

New players should definitely not be spoon-fed, but at the very least allowing them to be remotely competitive would be a great start so they can have some success and find the motivation to stick around through said success.




The vets among us dictate the new player role is to be cannon fodder for them. Look at what happened to Brave. Ton of noobs in t1 frigs farmed by the big coalitions. Left null and now sitting if FW. A glowing endorsement for why many avoid null.
Memphis Baas
#98 - 2015-09-27 16:56:09 UTC
You completely miss the point: Brave had FUN, they made a name for themselves, they saw fights, they played the game, they were on the news multiple times. It was better for every single Brave member than it is for the thousands sitting in high-sec mining boredom in barges.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#99 - 2015-09-27 23:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Memphis Baas wrote:
In any case, my point was that a newbie has to go from 50 skills to 160+ in a short time immediately after character creation, and getting the money for that, whether 30 million or 100, is part of EVE's learning curve.
hmmm... my main has 160 skills, and if I could remove useless skills it'd be down to around 130 or less. I could probably get down to around 125 and not be effected. Webby has 99 skills, a few useless, but a competent combat pilot with appropriate tax dodging skills. What's this 160+ immediately? Someone that thinks they are going to instantly do pvp & pve combat + exploration + trading + mining + manufacturing + hauling + mega corp leadership etc etc?

I sell skill books, I don't want them removed, that's silly. They are not that expensive unless you are training a lot of skills you'll just never need. Taking over skillbooks for CCP to distribute is as bad as some calling for PLEX to be regulated or sold by npc's etc.

See? See how useless it is just to increase the given amount on SP at character creation? Sure as a Vet you'll make full use of that, with alts or temp accounts, but for a newbie it would seem more important to communicate to them what skills they should be training rather than they just dumping in a bunch of unneeded skill books and then wasting SP into them. Ontop of that, if CCP just dumps that extra SP in to what CCP thinks should be trained first, the newbie learns nothing and continues to be dependent on the game to make decisions for them. People like that should probably just, you know -->

Because it won't really fix a thing in the end, apart from attracting players that want the game to make decisions for them. That'll never change, it'll never be good enough, and they will leave EVE as soon as someone they know makes a decision for them to play some other game.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2015-09-27 23:52:41 UTC
Webvan wrote:
See? See how useless it is just to increase the given amount on SP at character creation? Sure as a Vet you'll make full use of that, with alts or temp accounts, but for a newbie it would seem more important to communicate to them what skills they should be training rather than they just dumping in a bunch of unneeded skill books and then wasting SP into them. Ontop of that, if CCP just dumps that extra SP in to what CCP thinks should be trained first, the newbie learns nothing and continues to be dependent on the game to make decisions for them. People like that should probably just, you know -->

Because it won't really fix a thing in the end, apart from attracting players that want the game to make decisions for them. That'll never change, it'll never be good enough, and they will leave EVE as soon as someone they know makes a decision for them to play some other game.
So in the end as you describe it there isn't anything actually wrong here. Not knowing what to train is still an issue for new players, that's a wash. Older players and/or research is still needed to progress from there, so again a wash.

On the other hand where we disagree is that this in some way tailors to those who need decisions made for them. Those coming into the game after this won't have any concept of what you are saying. They won't understand the decisions that went into the starting skills. As such they will be no more swayed or repulsed by having extra SP at the start. Players poorly suited for Eve will still not have any understanding of what's being granted and thus can't be drawn in any greater numbers. If they are drawn in then they do understand the skill system and thus aren't those that would be turned off by it's intricacies or would be poorly suited for the game.

The goal here isn't just giving SP anyways. Having more SP is just a result of increasing the starting capabilities of a character while avoiding changing the skill/prerequisite system which guides those abilities. The SP increase isn't the draw, it's the ability to use basic things that would be potentially hours away otherwise and not having early progress and enthusiasm stop due to that barrier.