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Notice: Investgation and Prize Item Freeze for Teams in ATXIII

First post First post
Author
Helo Dhals
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2015-09-16 15:36:37 UTC
This is literally why we can't have nice things.

CCP puts together a tournament for pilots to test their mettle and instead, greed takes over and it becomes about how much you can get away with.
Don't be surprised if the alliance tournaments go away after another incident like this.
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#62 - 2015-09-16 15:53:50 UTC
Helo Dhals wrote:
This is literally why we can't have nice things.

CCP puts together a tournament for pilots to test their mettle and instead, greed takes over and it becomes about how much you can get away with.
Don't be surprised if the alliance tournaments go away after another incident like this.


Yeah, I don't think anyone would be that surprised if this was the last AT

I mean, the same team doing the same thing after previously being banned for it.

Ironically, they could have easily just have won. No team came close to beating either of their teams. Fielding 2 teams is within the rules, sharing setups and AT ships is within the rules, they just didn't need to fix their own matches. Had they just genuinely fought each other they'd still get exactly the same share of AT ships and prizes because agreeing to split prizes is also within the rules.

Seems that wasn't enough lol.
DeadDuck
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2015-09-16 16:00:40 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
EVE is meta don't be surprised when they play the game that way.
End result is what matters


Wrong.

EVE is a product that CCP sells.

People, don't seem to understand that, there are RL jobs dependent on how well EVE Online, the main CCP product sells or not.

The AT is one of the biggest events the game brings to their paying customers. It's officially sponsored by CCP, and if the allegations are true, these people (Hydramel) are destroying the image of that same AT, the image of the game, and hurting CCP income or at least potential income.

Suspicious from rigged results for the 2nd time ? And from the same people ? On a Offical sponsored event ? That's what you can call bad PR.

What do you think a CEO from a RL corporation should do if you see a very restrict number of their clients destroy the public image of their bigest selling product?

Trust me if CCP discovers that matches were fixed... it will be arsh for the people involved.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#64 - 2015-09-16 16:10:23 UTC
Captain Thunk wrote:
Yeah, I don't think anyone would be that surprised if this was the last AT
CCP is imperfect sure, but I doubt they are so foolish that they would throw away one of their more successful creations just because some players trolled them.

Captain Thunk wrote:
No team came close to beating either of their teams. Fielding 2 teams is within the rules, sharing setups and AT ships is within the rules, they just didn't need to fix their own matches. Had they just genuinely fought each other they'd still get exactly the same share of AT ships and prizes because agreeing to split prizes is also within the rules.

That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it?
Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#65 - 2015-09-16 16:21:54 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:

That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it?


no?

#BansOrRiot
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#66 - 2015-09-16 16:22:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Bad Bobby wrote:

That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it?


no, because they already got caught cheating. So the contrary is to assume.
Cheater is most likely to stay cheater.

W0lf Crendraven wrote:


Severely disagree on some points, you cant punish the average member, what are they to do?


be honest and speaking up after the match, to CCP if needed. How bout that?
DHB could speak up, why not the others?
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#67 - 2015-09-16 16:25:34 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it?

An accusation made by one of the team players on the Hydramel team led to the investigation that's currently taking place which either will, or will not, turn up concrete evidence. That's what investigations are for.

One of their own players making the accusation is a good case for assuming that there needs to be an investigation.

I'm not sure which part wasn't clear to you.
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#68 - 2015-09-16 16:34:38 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:

be honest and speaking up after the match, to CCP if needed. How bout that?
DHB could speak up, why not the others?


I would expect in the course of the investigation, the other players on the Hydramel team will be given a chance to speak up. As their account and possible prize ship is on the line, I hardly imagine all of them are going to deny anything happened if infact, like DHB, they were duped and didn't realise until the last stages that their actions had actually been predetermined at a BBQ event sometime before.

This is Eve, as so many people have pointed out, their loyalty is to themselves and not some imaginary corporation and e-bushido. IF there were clear signs something was amiss on the final stages like DHB asserts then they aren't going to go down with the ship when they know full well that others are going to save themselves. And why should they? This was collusion at the highest level, the actual grunts that did the work were, according to DHB, oblivious until the 2 parts of the team met.
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#69 - 2015-09-16 16:34:49 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
EVE is meta don't be surprised when they play the game that way.
End result is what matters


Wrong.

EVE is a product that CCP sells.

People, don't seem to understand that, there are RL jobs dependent on how well EVE Online, the main CCP product sells or not.

The AT is one of the biggest events the game brings to their paying customers. It's officially sponsored by CCP, and if the allegations are true, these people (Hydramel) are destroying the image of that same AT, the image of the game, and hurting CCP income or at least potential income.

Suspicious from rigged results for the 2nd time ? And from the same people ? On a Offical sponsored event ? That's what you can call bad PR.

What do you think a CEO from a RL corporation should do if you see a very restrict number of their clients destroy the public image of their bigest selling product?

Trust me if CCP discovers that matches were fixed... it will be arsh for the people involved.


I think you're correct on every point but the last one, CCP knows something went on, thats why they made the rule clarifications. It's bad PR if they can prove them. I feel its just as bad PR for them if they can't. Thats why we need the rules changes regardless. I think the best way we can get that is a joint effort by CCP and the vast majority of ethical tournament teams, and the best way, imo to do that, is by appointing a dedicated tournament CSM. CCP should let the players vote who wants to represent them, but I feel manny would be an excellent candidate regardless. Obviously, I dont want to seem as if that would be a biased call, so to avoid that opening it up to a vote from tournament sourced candidates would be the best action they could take. It would kill a lot of birds with one stone.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#70 - 2015-09-16 16:45:22 UTC
Captain Thunk wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it?
An accusation made by one of the team players on the Hydramel team led to the investigation that's currently taking place which either will, or will not, turn up concrete evidence. That's what investigations are for.

One of their own players making the accusation is a good case for assuming that there needs to be an investigation.

I'm not sure which part wasn't clear to you.

All that is perfectly clear.

I think CCP absolutely needs to carry out an investigation. I do think it was a massive blunder for them to announce it publicly, but that is a different matter.

What I find really daft is that so many people are predicting the result of that investigation and calling it against Warlords and Camel.

Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all.

Helo Dhals
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#71 - 2015-09-16 16:49:37 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:

Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all.



If that is the actual outcome, you will see a massive drop in alliance participation next year. Why should anyone spend 80 some odd PLEX plus all the time/energy/ISK for practice, if there is no collective confidence in CCP's ability to provide/preserve an even playing field?
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#72 - 2015-09-16 16:54:56 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Captain Thunk wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
That sounds like a pretty good case for assuming their innocence until some actual evidence is produced to the contrary, doesn't it?
An accusation made by one of the team players on the Hydramel team led to the investigation that's currently taking place which either will, or will not, turn up concrete evidence. That's what investigations are for.

One of their own players making the accusation is a good case for assuming that there needs to be an investigation.

I'm not sure which part wasn't clear to you.

All that is perfectly clear.

I think CCP absolutely needs to carry out an investigation. I do think it was a massive blunder for them to announce it publicly, but that is a different matter.

What I find really daft is that so many people are predicting the result of that investigation and calling it against Warlords and Camel.

Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all.



People do that, I haven't as I'm happy to wait to see what CCP find.

As for calling it publicly, that's just to show they're looking into it, rather than just silently ignoring questions about DHBs statement. You can't really fault CCP for doing that.

Yet you've made your own prediction, so I guess you're no better. The history isn't so good. Isn't at least one of the key players banned for RMT? Yet here he is trying to get his hands on trillions of ISK in prizes. The team accused has also done exactly this before and was banned from participating the following year.

What you're actually saying is you don't think they'll have left anything concrete as evidence that can be used to prove what they've done, so I'll just wish you the best of luck getting your AT prize ship back :)
Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#73 - 2015-09-16 17:00:58 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all.

Well, given the history of the pilots involved, this is also the fourth time that particular scheme was attempted. Not taking any sides here, but there is a precedent for this sort of behaviour.
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#74 - 2015-09-16 17:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Rive
This is all daft. I dont care whether the accusations are true or not. It makes no difference to the tournament in the future. Everyone knows what went on. Everyone knows something unethical went on. What matters is the rules get changed for next year so all of this stupid behaviour and using the tournament as a profit machine gets blocked out. Someone or some people did something which damaged the tournament to make a quick buck. It doesnt matter what that thing is, what matters is they knew they were doing it, they knew it was wrong, and they didnt care about the consequences for the tournament. If there is proof, they need to be banned from ever participating again, because they have done it before and you bet your ass they will try and do it again, they dont care. If there is no concrete evidence for CCP to use, then the people resnponsible need to have it as difficult as possible for them to break the rules again.

If neither of these things happen, next year is going to be a farce, and there will be no point in continuing the alliance tournament at all. Instead of treating it as a bit of fun, and as a tool for prestige, you can bet more alliances will make the tournament into a profit machine, it will be part of their yearly income, just like moon mining used to be.

I do NOT want to be a part in a tournament where this is the case.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#75 - 2015-09-16 17:30:33 UTC
Helo Dhals wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Given the history of the groups involved and the obvious tournament prowess of the two teams, it's more likely that the investigation will turn up no concrete evidence at all.
If that is the actual outcome, you will see a massive drop in alliance participation next year. Why should anyone spend 80 some odd PLEX plus all the time/energy/ISK for practice, if there is no collective confidence in CCP's ability to provide/preserve an even playing field?
I suppose that is a possible outcome. Like I say, it was stupid for CCP to announce the investigation.

Captain Thunk wrote:
As for calling it publicly, that's just to show they're looking into it, rather than just silently ignoring questions about DHBs statement. You can't really fault CCP for doing that.
I certainly can.

Unless they had clear and irrefutable evidence of collusion between Warlords and Camel before making that announcement, they took a significant PR risk. If they didn't have that evidence, they should have investigated in secret.

Captain Thunk wrote:
Yet you've made your own prediction, so I guess you're no better.

Have I? It was not my intention if I did.

I'm actually undecided, because I don't think there is sufficient information on which to base a worthwhile prediction.

I could make a wild ass guess, I could go along with the mob or I could stick to my alliance loyalties. But since none of these things convey any greater likelihood of a correct prediction, I don't think I will.

Captain Thunk wrote:
What you're actually saying is you don't think they'll have left anything concrete as evidence that can be used to prove what they've done

I don't think it's very likely that CCP will find anything concrete, no.

But what I'm "actually saying" is that I would not be in the least bit surprised to find you've all been trolled by HYDRA yet again.
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#76 - 2015-09-16 17:40:34 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:

But what I'm "actually saying" is that I would not be in the least bit surprised to find you've all been trolled by HYDRA yet again.


The point at which the ships were taken it ceases to become a troll, even if that's how it started.

There's no way Hydramel can continue to exploit the same flaw in AT rules, so it hurts them more than anyone else. They've been exploiting it for 4 years now and I can't see how CCP cannot change the rules for next year and allow them to continue doing it.

I too initially thought it was a troll, but if it was, it backfired.
Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#77 - 2015-09-16 17:47:01 UTC
#BansOrRiot
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#78 - 2015-09-16 17:47:25 UTC
Captain Thunk wrote:
The point at which the ships were taken it ceases to become a troll, even if that's how it started.
No, that would just be where it escalated to a higher level of trolling.

Captain Thunk wrote:
There's no way Hydramel can continue to exploit the same flaw in AT rules, so it hurts them more than anyone else. They've been exploiting it for 4 years now and I can't see how CCP cannot change the rules for next year and allow them to continue doing it.
Sounds rather like they've just pulled up the ladder behind them, doesn't it?

Captain Thunk wrote:
I too initially thought it was a troll, but if it was, it backfired.
With so many people going full ******? I don't think so.
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#79 - 2015-09-16 17:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Thunk
Bad Bobby wrote:
No, that would just be where it escalated to a higher level of trolling.

Sounds rather like they've just pulled up the ladder behind them, doesn't it?

If you were a member of the Hydramel team I'd call that :backpeddling: Instead it's just bad spin.

Bad Bobby wrote:

Captain Thunk wrote:
I too initially thought it was a troll, but if it was, it backfired.
With so many people going full ******? I don't think so.

When you kill off your multi-trillion annual income, that's pretty much guaranteed, it's very difficult, even if you were the offspring of Goebbels and the Iraqi Information minister, to spin this as something positive.

But thanks for taking part.

Edit: Did you name yourself Bad Bobby? or did CCP add the prefix once they saw you post?
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#80 - 2015-09-16 18:03:27 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
With so many people going full ******? I don't think so.


With their 80 or so AT ships, which are worth hundreds of billions of ISK, frozen by CCP which in turn gives PL the majority of the available AT ships to sell and profit off of due to lower availability, yeah it sorta did.