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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#621 - 2015-08-20 08:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Wolfensrevenge wrote:
Icycle wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Have the newbros kill them:

[Atron, newbro kill farming]
Overdrive Injector System II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Damage Control II

5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Modal Light Electron Particle Accelerator I, CN Antimatter Charge S
Modal Light Electron Particle Accelerator I, CN Antimatter Charge S
Modal Light Electron Particle Accelerator I, CN Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]

Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I



All Meta barring the OD (lol hull upgrades II) and the DC (lol hull upgrades IV).

4743/6781m/s with heat.

Feed the newbros delicious kills Smile


My point exactly. Heck you dont even need the tech 2 stuff. You can easelly do this with tech 1 only.


You guys have never played eve? Your not going to catch a ceptor with a 250 Km headstart going 750ms faster......Get your head out of jita 4-4



4kms interceptor which can't warp and needs to be with 25km of the structure. It'll be 145km off the object when you land, assuming a 30s warp time.

So you heat the MWD, you'll close the cap to scram range in 50-51 seconds (145/2.781km/s = ~52.1). The interceptor is now 350km off the structure, which is near breaking grid, but you'd pop right after it but frankly it's more likely the grid would just extend.


Not much margin of error, but then, that's a meta Atron....a faster ship would rip into it even quicker. Hell I'm sure you could use a condor so you'll only need to get to LML range because it's self tackled.


And that's worst case "no-one in system when ping goes out". If you're in system it'll be easier again to catch.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#622 - 2015-08-20 08:19:49 UTC
Kystraz wrote:
Oh boy, tech 1 frigates and interceptors. Exactly what I started playing eve for.


Well you havent even been accepted to a player corp yet, so maybe even T1 frigs are more than you can handle, stick to rookie ships until you learn the basics.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#623 - 2015-08-20 08:22:39 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sentamon wrote:

Nobody will ever take you on, ever ... unless CCP starts giving out free Titans and someone else wants to run a 50k coalition.
A 1v1 with entosis pilots is about the best you can hope for, but you send overwhelming numbers at him too and cant figure out why he runs.

But keep on recruiting and blueing and don't let the door hit you on the ass when you leave.

I love that the idea that the Imperium's invincibility is so assured that even people who hate the coalition are accepting it as gospel.

It's probably our most successful piece of agitprop ever, and it's at its strongest when the barrier to entry for sov warfare is at its lowest.


Being universally despised as an opponent is not exaclty the same as being invincible. Nobody wants to play with you or like you play, we prefer enjoying our lives and computer games.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#624 - 2015-08-20 08:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
gascanu wrote:
why would anyone fit an entosis link on a bs? or a bc? why would anyone fit an entosis on any other type of ship except a frig or a recon/t3?
even if you are really trying to take sov, why would you fit the entosis on a bs for example? much easyer to fit it on a frig and buzz around till the fight is over(if there is a fight), and if you win, you go and entosis stuff, if you lose, you run away;
the problem that CCP fail to understand is that some ships are much better at entosising stuff than the others; and in entosis case, frigs can do exactlly the same work a bs/bc will do, but with much less risk and much faster(faster aka traveling times), and also, much much cheaper


Players will always take the avenue that affords least risk from their point of view. Right now the best way to do that is to fit for speed, as it allows the player to ignore combat the majority of the time. When you incentivise speed in this way you're also removing any need to bring more than one ship to that grid; in every case your best option is to disengage and run away so why bother bringing additional forces?

The simplest way to encourage players to invest into an attack is to replace the no remote assistance penalty with a no-MWD penalty. Now the most reliable way to survive is to bring friends along to help keep you alive.

Of course this doesn't resolve the sov-trolling aspect; even with no MWD, disposable ships with Entosis links are still affordable. If you hate someone enough 50m a pop to harass them constantly is hardly going to break the bank. After all players have been doing this for ages with siphons, dictors and anchorable bubbles.
The simplest solution here is to make such disposable ships harder to maintain. Bump up the stront cost for Entosis mods so that a typical frigate or cruiser would struggle to contest any ADM higher than 1-2 without reloading their fuel (a good starting point is 2 stront per minute). This either forces them to gimp their fits with cargo expanders, bring another ship entirely, or bring friends along who can refuel them. In every case the effort involved from the attacker is a little higher.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#625 - 2015-08-20 08:32:55 UTC
Wolfensrevenge wrote:
You guys have never played eve? Your not going to catch a ceptor with a 250 Km headstart going 750ms faster......Get your head out of jita 4-4

Then you at least drive them outside of entosis range. You cannot stay within 25km range on any structure (you cannot fit a T2 EL on a frig, let alone a ceptor.) when one or two other ceptors are chasing you. Fight won. Where's the problem? No killmail? Get over it.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#626 - 2015-08-20 08:44:02 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Wolfensrevenge wrote:
You guys have never played eve? Your not going to catch a ceptor with a 250 Km headstart going 750ms faster......Get your head out of jita 4-4

Then you at least drive them outside of entosis range. You cannot stay within 25km range on any structure (you cannot fit a T2 EL on a frig, let alone a ceptor.) when one or two other ceptors are chasing you. Fight won. Where's the problem? No killmail? Get over it.


I can't help but think you would have defended pre-2007 Titans using the same logic.

Rivr Luzade would have said: wrote:

Just tank for their racial doomsday damage. They only get one shot to kill you and if you tank it you're fine. Fight won. Where's the problem? You have to go to ridiculous lengths to catch / kill them? No killmail? Get over it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#627 - 2015-08-20 08:48:41 UTC
xttz wrote:
gascanu wrote:
why would anyone fit an entosis link on a bs? or a bc? why would anyone fit an entosis on any other type of ship except a frig or a recon/t3?
even if you are really trying to take sov, why would you fit the entosis on a bs for example? much easyer to fit it on a frig and buzz around till the fight is over(if there is a fight), and if you win, you go and entosis stuff, if you lose, you run away;
the problem that CCP fail to understand is that some ships are much better at entosising stuff than the others; and in entosis case, frigs can do exactlly the same work a bs/bc will do, but with much less risk and much faster(faster aka traveling times), and also, much much cheaper


Players will always take the avenue that affords least risk from their point of view. Right now the best way to do that is to fit for speed, as it allows the player to ignore combat the majority of the time. When you incentivise speed in this way you're also removing any need to bring more than one ship to that grid; in every case your best option is to disengage and run away so why bother bringing additional forces?


That'll happen right up until someone actually wants the system.

Like happened here:

http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=4825,4830,4828,4826,4824,4829,4827,4815&b=6643920&e=120&t=WrmIauqLc&r=1

You see, as people have been trying to point out, when the chips come down, it's not nanoships doing the fighting.


I still don't think sov owners should be able to be essentially immune to harassment, virtually all the suggestions to "fix" this would create a world where you can hide behind passive defences - bubbles and low effort bottleneck camps and harassment becomes an impossible thing. That's not healthy.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#628 - 2015-08-20 08:51:58 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Gewns and UAxDEATH try being dominionfags and fail pathetically. Working as intended.


It's really kind of disingenuous to claim some minor hiccups during a sov transfer is 'fail pathetically'. Where are all the timers in Deklein?



The lack of timers on Deklein demonstrates just how right you guys are playing it.

So the question is.....why are certain other entities toiling so bad?


Just wait until they go on campaign...

EDIT: I hope...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#629 - 2015-08-20 08:53:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
I do not see how fitting highest possible resists against actual incoming damage is in any way comparable to driving a ship off the field or catch it and destroy it. Please enlighten me how a "fight is won" with a titan on field that you can kill or get other people to kill and how this compares to actually preventing people in inadequate ships from attacking what they want to attack. I also do not see how there's any "ridiculous lengths to catch/kill them" involved. In particular after the coming changes, any ceptor is easily catchable by other ceptors.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#630 - 2015-08-20 08:55:18 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Gewns and UAxDEATH try being dominionfags and fail pathetically. Working as intended.


It's really kind of disingenuous to claim some minor hiccups during a sov transfer is 'fail pathetically'. Where are all the timers in Deklein?



The lack of timers on Deklein demonstrates just how right you guys are playing it.

So the question is.....why are certain other entities toiling so bad?


Just wait until they go on campaign...

EDIT: I hope...


I kind of hope we do a surprise buttsex of all of Providence and capture like 95% of it over a weekend. Using trollceptors just to twist the knife.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#631 - 2015-08-20 08:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Arkady Romanov wrote:
I kind of hope we do a surprise buttsex of all of Providence and capture like 95% of it over a weekend. Using trollceptors just to twist the knife.

CFC wanted to do it. They realized how infeasible it is. Good luck with your ceptors. Roll In the other hand: I heard that Tenal is pretty light on defenses at the moment as INIT an RAZOR reduce their foothold there. Might be easier to pull of an attack than in Providence.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#632 - 2015-08-20 09:05:45 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
I am curious about something.


Why has CCP decided that the minimum barrier to entry as a Sov holding entity is a 50 mill, T2 frigate?


Dominion sov was flawed. The investment required to be a player in the Sov game at that time was a massive super fleet, and the logistic acumen of a real life medium sized business. This was absolutely unsustainable and needed to change. I don't think too many people would disagree.

It did have some advantages however. Wars required commitment, both in time and assets. The wars and politics were unlike anything any other game has offered. They were in many ways, EVE's unique selling point. They were the narrative for the history of the game. They gave the game a prestige. That's gone now. You can obtain Sov using an unarmed ship.

To me, contesting sov should be a game of thrones. Sov wars should require commitment to initiate. 50 mill of T2 frigate is not a commitment. My corp, which doesn't live in null, should not have been able to take sov just for yuks.

Dominion had limited life left in it because there were only a finite number of entities that could reasonably contest it. It had to change, but I think it was a mistake to abandon everything learned from it. There is no sense of occasion in fozzie sov. There is no sense of loss when a system changes hands or accomplishment when it is taken. Somewhere, between the obscene commitment of dominion and the laughable execution of fozziesov must be a happy medium.

Bring back the game of thrones. Bring "epic" back.


Well put.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#633 - 2015-08-20 09:12:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I just realized what the problem is. Idea

Since the T20 scandal, CCP employees have been forbidden to join sov holding alliances, right? So, as far as sov is concerned, they literally don't play their own game, and they haven't for years.



A good point.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#634 - 2015-08-20 09:26:36 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I just realized what the problem is. Idea

Since the T20 scandal, CCP employees have been forbidden to join sov holding alliances, right? So, as far as sov is concerned, they literally don't play their own game, and they haven't for years.

A good point.

Is it? How much truth lies in the rumors of some of them having alts in such organizations? Even if not, it's an unsolvable problem with human nature as the biggest obstacle.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Icycle
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#635 - 2015-08-20 09:34:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Icycle
afkalt wrote:
Wolfensrevenge wrote:
Icycle wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Have the newbros kill them:

[Atron, newbro kill farming]
Overdrive Injector System II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Damage Control II

5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Modal Light Electron Particle Accelerator I, CN Antimatter Charge S
Modal Light Electron Particle Accelerator I, CN Antimatter Charge S
Modal Light Electron Particle Accelerator I, CN Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]

Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I



All Meta barring the OD (lol hull upgrades II) and the DC (lol hull upgrades IV).

4743/6781m/s with heat.

Feed the newbros delicious kills Smile


My point exactly. Heck you dont even need the tech 2 stuff. You can easelly do this with tech 1 only.


You guys have never played eve? Your not going to catch a ceptor with a 250 Km headstart going 750ms faster......Get your head out of jita 4-4



4kms interceptor which can't warp and needs to be with 25km of the structure. It'll be 145km off the object when you land, assuming a 30s warp time.

So you heat the MWD, you'll close the cap to scram range in 50-51 seconds (145/2.781km/s = ~52.1). The interceptor is now 350km off the structure, which is near breaking grid, but you'd pop right after it but frankly it's more likely the grid would just extend.


Not much margin of error, but then, that's a meta Atron....a faster ship would rip into it even quicker. Hell I'm sure you could use a condor so you'll only need to get to LML range because it's self tackled.


And that's worst case "no-one in system when ping goes out". If you're in system it'll be easier again to catch.


30 seconds is a loooooong warp =). Maybe x-70 has this but that one of very few systems.
The average is probably about 15 secs. But lets use worst case scenario JUST to make you happy. Blink
We will even concider using this noob ship that can do just about 2000m/s more. Blink

"So you heat the MWD, you'll close the cap to scram range in 50-51 seconds (145/2.781km/s = ~52.1). The interceptor is now 350km off the structure,"
But how close are you now in your frigate/ceptor by the time target is 350km from structure?
The answer is you are equal 0. The distance from struture is meaning less. Your fleet is within an easy warp range.
Thank you for prooving my point. Even when you select extreme bad situations of using a selected noob ship and select ridiculous initial warp time/ranges, it can be done easelly. Big smile

Or do you want an easy effort less kill where you dont even have to chase it down? Lol
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#636 - 2015-08-20 09:36:11 UTC
It's not that long actually. Pretty average the time you accelerate, decelerate then regain ship control.

It is fairly neat, but certainly doable.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#637 - 2015-08-20 09:50:15 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
I am curious about something.


Why has CCP decided that the minimum barrier to entry as a Sov holding entity is a 50 mill, T2 frigate?


Dominion sov was flawed. The investment required to be a player in the Sov game at that time was a massive super fleet, and the logistic acumen of a real life medium sized business. This was absolutely unsustainable and needed to change. I don't think too many people would disagree.

It did have some advantages however. Wars required commitment, both in time and assets. The wars and politics were unlike anything any other game has offered. They were in many ways, EVE's unique selling point. They were the narrative for the history of the game. They gave the game a prestige. That's gone now. You can obtain Sov using an unarmed ship.

To me, contesting sov should be a game of thrones. Sov wars should require commitment to initiate. 50 mill of T2 frigate is not a commitment. My corp, which doesn't live in null, should not have been able to take sov just for yuks.

Dominion had limited life left in it because there were only a finite number of entities that could reasonably contest it. It had to change, but I think it was a mistake to abandon everything learned from it. There is no sense of occasion in fozzie sov. There is no sense of loss when a system changes hands or accomplishment when it is taken. Somewhere, between the obscene commitment of dominion and the laughable execution of fozziesov must be a happy medium.

Bring back the game of thrones. Bring "epic" back.


Well put.


Does this not fit the bill? A somewhat serious fight over a station: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3hn4n5/fozzisov_fight_pretty_awesome_clash_going_on/
http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=4825,4830,4828,4826,4824,4829,4827,4815&b=6643920&e=120&t=WrmIauqLc&r=1

Machariel, T3, HAC fleets, not interceptors dancing around field here.

"Epic"? No, I'd say not - but certainly an indicator that when people REALLY want something and the owners REALLY want to keep it it's not the small ships which are wheeled out.


The system is in its infancy, this is the first actual fight I'm aware of and it's sure as hell not nano-games.
Wolfensrevenge
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#638 - 2015-08-20 09:57:42 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
There are no big fights in fozziesov, move on people, nothing to see here.

These fights have nearly nothing to do with sov. It's goodfight in it's finest.
G-Club dudes are great frenemies and I give them huge kudos. No-one would ever want to purge them out of their regions while they ignite such conflicts. The sheer amount of fun all involved side have can only be merited to the event-makers of corresponding alliances, and if anythig, such fights are happening despite the efforts of certain CCP developers. Fozziesov battles should be, by design, spread across the constellation - while what we see is a good old blob slugfest.
By the way, a new battle happened just recently. Once again, sov was not a factor, we just wanted to brawl.



Was a good Fight they came we fought everyone had fun but they were coming to get the reinforce timer. In a proper fleet not a troll ceptor... Hats off to G-Club for the fun.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#639 - 2015-08-20 09:59:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Jenn aSide wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tallardar wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I agree, null has been stagnant, that's why we've all agreed that a change is needed. Unfortunately that change is seemingly an attempt to make it even less likely that a large scale battle will occur.


Right, except no one was close to doing that nor trying to for over a year before the sov changes came out anyway.


This is a bit inaccurate. "Fleet Fights" aren't just Asakai and BR-5 type deals, plenty of fleet fights involve only sub caps, and plenty happened over the coure of the last year. The Mittani website and EVE news detail those kinds of fights all the time.

I've been in only 2 mid sized scraps since Aegis began (one involving my old alliance INIT fighting my new alliance lol). And that's it, the rest have been "Aegis style bullshit Nibble fights" (that phrase shall be copyrighted soon lol). I still find it odd that (from my perspective as someone who likes fleet fights) CCP could take a system of occasional fair sized to big fights and make them less occasional lol.


Is this really the fault of CCP, or the alliance leaders who blue up everything in sight and NIP the rest?


CCP.

That "everyone is blue" thing has never been true, when I was in INIT and we were associated with HBC there was plenty to shoot, ,and people are shooting still. Of the two of us, I'm in the alliance with fewer blues,so if it was the fault of 'alliance leaders', those leaders are only enabled by YOU (line members who given alliance leaders power by existing).

Why would you complain about this while sitting comfortably in an Imperium Aligned group I do not know. It's a lot like protesting the burning of fossil fuels while owning a gas station.


I'm getting plenty of fights in my alliance thanks. And I'm not the one complaining about a lack of content or fights. I was referring to the posters who are complaining about having no-one to shoot while surrounded by blues.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Icycle
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#640 - 2015-08-20 10:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Icycle
Speedkermit Damo wrote:

I'm getting plenty of fights in my alliance thanks. And I'm not the one complaining about a lack of content or fights. I was referring to the posters who are complaining about having no-one to shoot while surrounded by blues.


Agree. Reset standing of your neighbour or at least deploy to an enemy space and put up a POS. But if you dont do anything, well dont be suprised nothing happens....The fault is with your alliance that decided to blue all your area and not CCP! Take an example from us. We got very few allies and a very rich target environment 50000 to kill Twisted. I have never been so happy!