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Because there is no mechanical difference between your concept of nomadic and PL's concept of nomadic.

You're both moving a huge fleet of capital ships way round the donut, and there's no way of knowing whether you're going to attempt the return trip until you do. it's difficult to contrive a reason why a jump towards where you've recently been is any different from a jump to anywhere else.

Now...

CCP could always make the effects of fatigue substantially worse on supercapitals than regular capitals, and remove it entirely for subcaps.

well no because standard capitals were always a bigger issue than suppers and removing it from sub caps will not help power projection. You would be able to hold space of almost any size and get from one end to the other in no time with a proper jump bridge network

Not long enough to stop the behavior CCP is trying to address.

These are fights provoked by reinforcement timers, and often on reinforced nodes. The logistics of setting up those conditions means that people already typically have 24 hour advance notice.



I have absolutely no problem with this.

So I'm gonna go back to the original Phoebe dev blogs, because you are either forgetting what Pheobe was for or didn't have a strong understanding to start. Back before CCP said 'yeah that's too rough, we'll adjust it to be a little more flexible by capping the number of days you can build fatigue' and before this last fanfest where CCP said it wasn't doing the job the way they wanted it to.... Back when B-R5 and the final 'blue donut' after PL getting smashed and the CFC having effective control of pretty much most of null through actual ownership, friends, or by being able to move their super cap fleet anywhere in the game in 30 minutes, if that.....





The 'aim' goal was there abouts an hour to travel 20 LY. That's the sort of magic number because that's about where CCP suggested the two travel times should intersect and anything after fatigue should take longer than doing gates.


For reference, from Devoid/Derelik Low sec to Verge Vendor Low sec is there abouts 20 LY, give or take a few depending on the specific system. Using the suggested time frame above, it should take me about an hour to move a capital ship across that distance, either by gate or by jump drive. Perhaps it can be done with gates. Not sure, I'm not gonna go yolo'ing dreads through gates because the whole 'caps are basically useless against subcaps when unsupported' game model CCP uses. So for discussion sake, let's assume that 'no less than three minutes' is interpreted as an average of 5 by jump drive. Even then, it shouldn't take me longer than 2 hours to jump that distance, closer to an hour and a forty minutes. From experience, making the assumption I can almost straight jump at perfect 5 AU jumps and don't have to deviate for appropriate systems, it will take me about 2 hours and 20 minutes, assuming I double jump the last jump, which will slap me with 6 hrs fatigue before I can jump again. If I choose to wait fatigue down each jump, it will take close to 3 hours. That is for a 1 way trip for a single capital ship.



And you think a day lock out isn't long enough? The Nature of allowing caps through gates was to allow them to still travel around, even at a proposed rate of 20 LY an hour, Again depending on the exact gate paths you use. With fatigue this is not possible.

It also very clearly highlights the behavior that was designed to be stopped. Phoebe went out of its way to make it clear that that behavior was the massive movement of caps from all over the galaxy to huge fights to try to restore some regional conflict. Regional conflict can still take place inside of a 2-3 hour window for someone to move. It can still take place inside of a day lock out. It takes less time for subcaps to move that distance. That is still a form of power projection. So, jump bridges were subject to the same restrictions, so as to curb the other method by which groups controlled large portions of the map. Then CCP added interdiction immune interceptors, rebalanced the wormhole connections and changed Sov from structure grinding to sov wanding.

For all those fights with timers and what not you use as an example of why it shouldn't be done, it still is done. Just with interceptors or wormholes, with the only penalty being how long it takes to scan a wormhole chain, or scoot an interceptor along. There is an exceedingly clear imbalance here.

The end result of that imbalance is a very punishing environment. While it is only one of many ways this can be resolved, Locking out caps into a 24 hour cool down timer in a move mode would provide more than enough time to address the problems that prompted phoebe to begin with, especially when coupled with something like double reactivation timers, again, as an example. Don't like 24 hours? Okay, 24 hours can't touch the fit or cargo, etc, and another 24 where you can remove the cargo, and ships but can't use the cap? Any of a number of ways out there really, but Fatigue needs adjusted to accommodate this, you know, being a game. Also, most cap pilots I know have more than 1 capital. So take that 3 hour trip and multiply it for each one, plus any time an individual may have things outside of eve where they can't just sit there for 3 hours and wait on a timer..... It does the job of stopping the single fleet for the entire map, but it also becomes too much of a punishment for moving anywhere.









What evidence do you have to support this? I can very clearly remember the massive cap swarms that would come from every corner of the map if a super got caught anywhere..... Asakai?


Or Black Legion's Dread bomb being wherever and whenever..... because all they had to do was light 10 cyno's and they were there?

And this can still be accomplished by adjusting jump fatigue to allow for things like moving. Using the working discussion example again, locking a cap in a theoretical 24 hour 'move mode' may still allow a pilot to get around quickly, but no more quickly than taking an interceptor, and assuming that move mode locked the bays for the duration of the move mode, would provide no greater advantage than an interceptor either. Either way, the pilot would have to have prestaged other ships to be able to use them. Arguably there would be even less advantage in using a 'move mode' cap as it would be combat useless and expensive where an interceptor can buzz around do stuff. Re-iterating again, that is not the only way to resolve the issue, it's just one working example throughout these last few posts.


It's not so much that we're seeing more capital usage, it's that we're seeing more smaller scale cap usage. This is good and well and no one is trying to change that to my knowledge. I and I'm sure others(though I can't speak for them) would just like for it to not be a disciplinary sentence when I do need to move, whether that's again for changing corps or corp/alliance moving to a new region or whatever.

I was playing KSP that year, and then WoWS because I got fed up with every alphafleet action hinging on "will this end in supercap escalation?".

I came back because it seems CCP has done a pretty good job of punching supercaps in the balls.

As long as they're on the ground, I say keep kicking.

Don't start getting hung up on one particular way of dealing with the issue. I've repeated myself over and again that it's just one way to deal with it, but it's not the only way, and it's not even the way I think is best, just the one I'm using for discussion sake.



There is and still will be a level of commitment to where you put caps. Far more than where you can throw a T3 fleet these days. Heck half the time you don't even need to look for your own wormhole chain, it's already plotted out on the pile of wormhole trackers floating around out there.



And that's the point you seem to keep overlooking. It's proportionally WAY too much of a pain the ass to do anything with caps outside of that little bubble of space they're in. 25 minutes and a bit of Wh digging you can move a fleet of subcaps across the map. Done it. Or fly a bunch of interceptors to some other cache of ships elsewhere. Done it. Heck, if you play your jump clones right, you can do it in a minute. Also done it. Move a capital to a different part of low sec? 2 hours. At best. With another pile of fatigue you have to wait off before doing anything with it. This is still a game. It shouldn't be so proportionally a pain to do something like move. As I said earlier, if we plugged into the matrix and lived in Eve, sure. But that's not the case.


Something like a move timer does force a measure of commitment because you then can't use any of that stuff for 24-48 hours. You'd have to move it before hand, keep it there, and then move it back, prompting another measure of commitment waiting on another timer to cool down. Or weighted cyno's. Or increasing reactivation timers for less accumulated fatigue. Or whatever of the mass of methods people have put forward to deal with the issue. Most of these STILL force far more commitment than is required to throw around a fleet of T3's and interceptors.

I haven't played the game since jump fatigue was introduced, I would like to come back to the game but the thought of a full day just to move all my crap back out too null is painfull, why the wait really? we have to wait for everything as it is.

Jump fatigue took away a lot of fun from the game aswell, a lot of the pvp fleets stopped, fun friday night roams, and moving capitals is just painfull now, why stuff the game? It was fine.
I could go more into it but going to see if any of the old people that i used to roam with are online... hang on... no and no they haven't logged on for ages.......

Supercapital movement should be completely nerfed into oblivion, only being able to use supercapitals for defense, and for offense only with a lot of preparation in moving the supercaps in place, and other offensive capitals movement should be nerfed to a lesser degree.

The playstyle of the likes of PL and NC. and similar organizations of crushing the little guy whenever they stick their heads out and preventing them from doing anything without getting dropped by an overwhelming number of supercaps, even in the same region beyond a few jumps, should be completely destroyed because it is only fun for a tiny minority of players and it stifles change and discourages new powers from rising.

But who am I kidding. They are just going to make it easier for them again to do this, because of a tiny vocal minority.

This is exactly why fatigue is needed on all sips and yes this started to become common when fatigue was announced (setting up capital cashes)