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Share your experiences with Fozziesov!

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Billy Bojangle
Doomheim
#261 - 2015-08-05 20:17:37 UTC
Grouchy Smurf wrote:

You said " large scale campaign against another target". I was thinking that you mean a real campaign against a real target . You know, the ones where capital ships are required.

You were obviously talking about trollceptors, so the answer is: Why would we have our members do something tedious without strategic value that will not even result in combat? If one of our members wants to go troll sov he can do it, it's up to him. Although, I would suggest a medical examinations afterwards.

DBRB spent months grinding structures in stealth bombers, but all of a sudden this is too tedious and of no strategic value? Sorry, but we both know less than half of capswarm could dunk anyone besides a unified bloc of your opposition, which does not exist at present. It's not as though a "fugoons," coalition would spring up over the weekend if you went and helicopter-dicked some region next week.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Well, we're all too busy living in our space to deploy elsewhere.

So why complain about the sov system when the mechanics of it have no bearing on whether or not you deploy?

Lucas Kell wrote:
It's a way of saying that if a group flies away from their own space to attack someone else, they are weak on home defence.

Weak on home defense because they don't have the numbers to support said defense while deployed.
Grouchy Smurf
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#262 - 2015-08-05 20:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Grouchy Smurf
Billy Bojangle wrote:

DBRB spent months grinding structures in stealth bombers, but all of a sudden this is too tedious and of no strategic value?


Spent months grinding structures back when they could escalate to fights.
Spurty
#263 - 2015-08-05 20:25:26 UTC
The same trick is actually truer for null sec. Compress it by 80% so null sec people can't run and hide from null sec people?

They appear to be a bored lot. Close the gap a bit. That's the medicine that's being asked for with highsec.

If it works well in Null, Highsec is going to thrive.

Test the new idea out on 15% of your wages first.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Akballah Kassan
Flames Of Chaos
Great Wildlands Conservation Society
#264 - 2015-08-05 20:28:34 UTC
Grouchy Smurf wrote:
Billy Bojangle wrote:

Why is there supposed to be a major distinction between reinforcement and attack? They have to bring a ship to reinforce so that is an attack of sorts. The fact they aren't bringing in a token fleet to get welped afterward seems like nothing more than good sense.


I am not sure I understood your reply.

The first attack on a node with Entosis link puts the structure in reinforced mode. After that period ends, a second attack either blow up the structure (IHUB, TCU) or captures it (Station). Or obviously puts it back to the defender's hands.

There are structures in Pure blink right now that are on their second capture circle for days. MoA doesn't want to destroy them because they will lose their trolling targets and the Imperium doesn't want to flip them back to secured because it will give new targets to MoA's campaign.


If anybody lived in those systems they'd be flipped back easily but nobody uses them. This is a prime example of Fozziesov in action. Some of those contested systems have less then 100 jumps per day through them.
Billy Bojangle
Doomheim
#265 - 2015-08-05 20:31:30 UTC
Grouchy Smurf wrote:
Spent months grinding structures back when they could escalate to fights.

And this went away because aegis? Nope. It went away when the last coalition large enough to escalate against you imploded.
Grouchy Smurf
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2015-08-05 20:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Grouchy Smurf
Akballah Kassan wrote:



If anybody lived in those systems they'd be flipped back easily but nobody uses them. This is a prime example of Fozziesov in action. Some of those contested systems have less then 100 jumps per day through them.


So, why don't you capture them? The idea of FozzieSov is to allow small alliances to fight and control areas of space from larger entities. Something that couldn't be done with Dominion mechanics.
All those structures are open to capture, yet no small alliance has claimed them. And it makes no difference whatsoever to Imperium since the few members that live there still do their thing.


Billy Bojangle wrote:
Grouchy Smurf wrote:
Spent months grinding structures back when they could escalate to fights.

And this went away because aegis? Nope. It went away when the last coalition large enough to escalate against you imploded.


Aegis did help. And bomber fleets are different than trollceptors.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#267 - 2015-08-05 20:35:27 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Amazing how the point can go so far over your head. It's a positive if it makes sov holders rethink why they hold so many systems. If it causes empires to shrink to manageable sizes, or pushes those who don't really want to defend their space back to low/WHs/HS, that's a huge positive for the game. That's the positive we are seeing start to play out here. If empires shrunk to honestly manageable levels, we would start to see fights again.
No it isn't lol. Progressively preventing sov holders from boarding tiers of ships until they could only fly shuttles would make them think twice about how much space they hold, but it would be a dumb idea. This new system is preventing conflict. In no way is that ever a good thing at a time when the problem is "not enough conflict".

You're blinded by your hatred for the mysterious blue doughnut to rationally look at the mechanics.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#268 - 2015-08-05 20:42:17 UTC
Billy Bojangle wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Well, we're all too busy living in our space to deploy elsewhere.

So why complain about the sov system when the mechanics of it have no bearing on whether or not you deploy?
Lol, they obviously do have a bearing, that's the point. We have to spend every waking moment making sure people in interceptors don't fly in and take structures, so we're hardly going to go deploying elsewhere. What a lot of you seem to want is for us to have to stand guard at all times just to own space and yet at the same time go and create conflict. It can't be bother ways. The hope was that by making in somewhat easier to take sov, people would fight over it. The problem is it requires so little commitment from attackers that we have to be weary of every rogue interceptor.

Honestly it feels like this has been said so many different ways and by so many different people that if you don;t get it now you probably never will. But I suppose that's more to do with "grr goons" than problems with comprehension, huh?

Billy Bojangle wrote:
Weak on home defense because they don't have the numbers to support said defense while deployed.
Generally speaking when you deploy, most of your force is out. When they are at home there's just enough space. Or are you seriously suggesting that whenever an alliance deploys they should be forced to dump a load of there sov to deploy? Honestly, it sounds like what you really want is for nullsec to be unbearably boring and conflict free.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Spurty
#269 - 2015-08-05 20:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Spurty
If Mr goonie would like to drop all but his top 3 Corporations from his alliance:

GoonWaffe [GEWNS] 2762 pilots
KarmaFleet [SNOOO] 2070 pilots
Wildly Inappropriate [W.I.] 1143 pilots

You would suddenly have 357 more corporations out in Null sec to look for content from.

You would still be in the top 3 alliances out of 3074 total in game.

Feel free to go ahead and do that first, before you moan that there is no enemy for you to fight as your blue list size is more of an issue for your own members than anyone else in game.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Billy Bojangle
Doomheim
#270 - 2015-08-05 20:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Billy Bojangle
Grouchy Smurf wrote:
Aegis did help. And bomber fleets are different than trollceptors.

I don't think anyone is arguing Aegis saved nullsec from coalition level risk aversion, but bombers grinding structures is literally slower at taking space than widespread ceptor trolling so you don't have a leg to stand on with this line of argument.

Lucas Kell wrote:
We have to spend every waking moment making sure people in interceptors don't fly in and take structures, so we're hardly going to go deploying elsewhere.

You mean to tell me 40 guys in interceptors can't be driven off by 1% of your active pilots staying behind? Come on man, the numbers here aren't a huge secret.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Generally speaking when you deploy, most of your force is out. When they are at home there's just enough space. Or are you seriously suggesting that whenever an alliance deploys they should be forced to dump a load of there sov to deploy? Honestly, it sounds like what you really want is for nullsec to be unbearably boring and conflict free.

I'm suggesting the Rusbois don't have enough pilots to hold their space not deployed, let alone deployed.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#271 - 2015-08-05 20:44:41 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
No it isn't lol. Progressively preventing sov holders from boarding tiers of ships until they could only fly shuttles would make them think twice about how much space they hold, but it would be a dumb idea. This new system is preventing conflict. In no way is that ever a good thing at a time when the problem is "not enough conflict".

You're blinded by your hatred for the mysterious blue doughnut to rationally look at the mechanics.


This is a stepping stone towards fixing the issue. This causes pain to large sov holders. We are trying to make new eden feel 'big' again. This is part of that effort. It isn't an overnight fix. If/when alliances start to shed systems they don't use, fights will start to happen more. It only prevents conflict because people have to scramble to systems they aren't actually active in to defend.

I don't hate the blue doughnut and it certainly isn't mysterious. I lived in it for years. Why did I live there? Because it was the safest and easiest way to live in EVE. It simply does to null what AFK miners do to high sec.

You're so blinded by "we don't want to actually give up the systems we don't really use" that you can't rationally look at the mechanics.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#272 - 2015-08-05 21:01:55 UTC
Billy Bojangle wrote:
You mean to tell me 40 guys in interceptors can't be driven off by 1% of your active pilots staying behind? Come on man, the numbers here aren't a huge secret.
And yet you pull these ones out of your ass Funny that. Why would we (or should we for that matter) risk our space to go deploying elsewhere when we can just live in our space spreading out the painfully boring structure mining and frigate chase over more people? If attackers don't have to commit anything to nullsec conflict, why should we?

Billy Bojangle wrote:
I'm suggesting the Rusbois don't have enough pilots to hold their space not deployed, let alone deployed.
Which may or may not be the case, but again, see above.


Sonya Corvinus wrote:
This is a stepping stone towards fixing the issue. This causes pain to large sov holders.
No, it' causes boredom to them. Games are designed for entertainment, you're happy that it's not because of your "grr nullsec" attitude.

Sonya Corvinus wrote:
We are trying to make new eden feel 'big' again.
lol, no you're not. EVE seemed big when there were 4000 players smashing the hell out of each other and international news articles chronicling it. What you want is to have the power to beat back thousands of players without having to figure out how to collaborate with others yourself.

Sonya Corvinus wrote:
This is part of that effort. It isn't an overnight fix. If/when alliances start to shed systems they don't use, fights will start to happen more. It only prevents conflict because people have to scramble to systems they aren't actually active in to defend.
Sorry, but you clearly haven't used the system. It requires no fighting. It's structure mining. The whole system works better by avoiding fights on both sides.

And we have given up systems. We can safely manage all the systems we hold. That still doesn't stop the fact that the mechanics for doing so are mind-numbingly boring.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Billy Bojangle
Doomheim
#273 - 2015-08-05 21:07:57 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Why would we (or should we for that matter) risk our space to go deploying elsewhere when we can just live in our space spreading out the painfully boring structure mining and frigate chase over more people? If attackers don't have to commit anything to nullsec conflict, why should we?

You aren't compelled to do anything, but if you're complaining about aegis sov. not providing content, you can't very well do that, and be taken seriously, from the vantage point of sitting around with every capability of generating said conflict with little risk to your own space. That's like a freighter pilot griping about CODE. while he refuses to log in one of his thousand web alts and scouts. Of course he can continue to autopiot through Udema, but nobody can take his complaints seriously when he has the resources at his disposal to solve his supposed problem.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#274 - 2015-08-05 21:10:01 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
No, it' causes boredom to them. Games are designed for entertainment, you're happy that it's not because of your "grr nullsec" attitude.


Null was boring BEFORE this change.

Lucas Kell wrote:

lol, no you're not. EVE seemed big when there were 4000 players smashing the hell out of each other and international news articles chronicling it. What you want is to have the power to beat back thousands of players without having to figure out how to collaborate with others yourself.


Where have you been for the last year? Making new eden feel big again has been one of CCP's main pushes. I personally have never fit an entosis link. A trollceptor can only beat back players if that system isn't actively lived in . that's what it boils down to. Live in the systems you hold.


Lucas Kell wrote:

Sorry, but you clearly haven't used the system. It requires no fighting. It's structure mining. The whole system works better by avoiding fights on both sides.


For the (3rd?) time it hasn't created fights because SOV holders refuse to give up unused systems and are left trying to defend space that's too big for their alliance

Lucas Kell wrote:

And we have given up systems. We can safely manage all the systems we hold. That still doesn't stop the fact that the mechanics for doing so are mind-numbingly boring.


If you can't easily swat away a trollceptor with someone already in that system, no, no you can't safely manage the systems you hold. That's the point. Keep an alt in station/hanging on incoming gates, and chase the ceptor away. How hard is that, exactly?
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2015-08-05 21:10:21 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
To contest sov, not necessarily take it, but to be a threat we must respond to, you need a shitfit interceptor. That's all. That's as close to the ground as it's realistically feasible to get.
And to protect sov against a shitfit interceptor, you need just one combat capable ship. That's it. Have a combat capable ship on-grid with the sov structure. Job done. Even a Skiff works. If a system is so worthless to you that you cannot have a single pilot the system to stop reinforcement, you don't deserve the system. You find defending it boring? You hate chasing command nodes? Good. I'm glad of that. I hope you totally flame out trying to defend it. I hope your whole entire alliance crumbles to the ground trying to defend systems that are worthless to you.
So we're back to "sit around babysitting all of your structures". Thank god you don't work for CCP.
No, we're at "live in your systems." Defending them against trolls then becomes trivially easy, and even fun and interesting.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#276 - 2015-08-05 21:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
I read the goals of Fozziesov and they have all been met with 100% success.


The only 'problem' with fozziesov is that, "IT IS WORKING AS INTENDED".

Nullsec wasnt supposed to like fozziesov and you should have anticipated that they would do anything and everything to get you to reverse fozziesov entirely or gut it till it essentially was nullified.

Nullsec is currently using 100% of its energy to FIGHT Fozziesov and 0% of its energy USING fozziesov and as long as that is true they will be miserable as this is an intended consequence of taking that particular stance.

If nullsec has learned one important lesson over the years it is this, "if we stomp our feet, pout and scream long enough, then like a poor excuse for a parent CCP will cave in to our desires".

So the real question of the day isnt, do we need to tweak fozziesov; the real question is will CCP cave into nullsec like a poor parent does to a spoiled brat or will CCP finally grow a spine and stand by what it knows is best for the game.

CCP, we await your answer and in the coming weeks and months, what will we hear; that you have caved in yet again or have you finally adopted better parenting skills?

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#277 - 2015-08-05 21:19:52 UTC
Billy Bojangle wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Why would we (or should we for that matter) risk our space to go deploying elsewhere when we can just live in our space spreading out the painfully boring structure mining and frigate chase over more people? If attackers don't have to commit anything to nullsec conflict, why should we?

You aren't compelled to do anything, but if you're complaining about aegis sov. not providing content, you can't very well do that, and be taken seriously, from the vantage point of sitting around with every capability of generating said conflict with little risk to your own space. That's like a freighter pilot griping about CODE. while he refuses to log in one of his thousand web alts and scouts. Of course he can continue to autopiot through Udema, but nobody can take his complaints seriously when he has the resources at his disposal to solve his supposed problem.
No, it's nothing like that. A system has been put in place that means that we have to stand guard though boring game mechanics while the attackers get to lol about in frigates. And yet we're the ones supposed to move heaven and earth to make up for the crappy system. **** off mate.

Honestly, it's irrelevant what you think. It''s pretty clear that the vast majority of players think the system is heavily flawed and boring. It's obvious that it's done nothing to promote conflict or improve player counts. It's obvious that CCP have some worries themselves from the rapid CSM CTA, so it's only matter of time before they start looking to fix it.


Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Null was boring BEFORE this change.
No it wasn't, and it certainly wasn't this boring. Seriously, actually try out the mechanics.

Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Where have you been for the last year? Making new eden feel big again has been one of CCP's main pushes. I personally have never fit an entosis link. A trollceptor can only beat back players if that system isn't actively lived in . that's what it boils down to. Live in the systems you hold.
It may be there plan but it's clearly not working.

Sonya Corvinus wrote:
For the (3rd?) time it hasn't created fights because SOV holders refuse to give up unused systems and are left trying to defend space that's too big for their alliance

If you can't easily swat away a trollceptor with someone already in that system, no, no you can't safely manage the systems you hold. That's the point. Keep an alt in station/hanging on incoming gates, and chase the ceptor away. How hard is that, exactly?
No, it hasn't created fights because attacker don't need to actually commit anything.

We can easily do it, but it's insanely boring to repeatedly do so. You're literally stating there "babysit your structures". WTF do you think video games are for? Win or lose, the mechanics are supposed to be entertaining. I seriously can't understand how you guys can sit there basically willing the game to die.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#278 - 2015-08-05 21:24:08 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
To contest sov, not necessarily take it, but to be a threat we must respond to, you need a shitfit interceptor. That's all. That's as close to the ground as it's realistically feasible to get.
And to protect sov against a shitfit interceptor, you need just one combat capable ship. That's it. Have a combat capable ship on-grid with the sov structure. Job done. Even a Skiff works. If a system is so worthless to you that you cannot have a single pilot the system to stop reinforcement, you don't deserve the system. You find defending it boring? You hate chasing command nodes? Good. I'm glad of that. I hope you totally flame out trying to defend it. I hope your whole entire alliance crumbles to the ground trying to defend systems that are worthless to you.
So we're back to "sit around babysitting all of your structures". Thank god you don't work for CCP.
No, we're at "live in your systems." Defending them against trolls then becomes trivially easy, and even fun and interesting.
You clearly haven't tried it. This is why NPC player's opinions are generally irrelevant. You claim it's fun and interesting, it's not. Chasing disposable shitfit interceptors designed for evasion is pretty much the opposite of fun.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2015-08-05 21:29:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
You clearly haven't tried it. This is why NPC player's opinions are generally irrelevant. You claim it's fun and interesting, it's not. Chasing disposable shitfit interceptors designed for evasion is pretty much the opposite of fun.
You are incorrect. We held sov. We didn't live in our sov. We defended it a couple times. We still didn't live in our sov. We stopped defending our sov. We lost our sov. That's Aegis Sov working as intended. In the meantime, we live in a system that gets a fair amount of hostile traffic, including interceptors going after mining barges - it's quite fun going after them.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#280 - 2015-08-05 21:37:23 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
You clearly haven't tried it. This is why NPC player's opinions are generally irrelevant. You claim it's fun and interesting, it's not. Chasing disposable shitfit interceptors designed for evasion is pretty much the opposite of fun.
You are incorrect. We held sov. We didn't live in our sov. We defended it a couple times. We still didn't live in our sov. We stopped defending our sov. We lost our sov. That's Aegis Sov working as intended. In the meantime, we live in a system that gets a fair amount of hostile traffic, including interceptors going after mining barges - it's quite fun going after them.
Yes, and I'm sure going after roaming gangs is fun, but that's not what's happening here. What's happening thanks to this new system is a spread of solo evasion fit interceptors head out to varied structures, start shooting it, then run away when approached. Until they have to commit to an attack, this is how it will continue, and it's boring.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.