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Share your experiences with Fozziesov!

First post First post
Author
Jayne Fillon
#1 - 2015-07-31 16:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayne Fillon
I made my original post here but I thought it would be worthwhile to post this on the actual official forums. What I'm looking for is your experienced with fozziesov so far - not your opinions or feelings - but actual stories about what you've done with fozziesov to date. Good experiences, bad experiences, funny anecdotes.... please share them all. Thanks!

Original Post Below:

Hey everyone!

The CSM just got out of a meeting with CCP Seagull, the Executive Producer of Eve Online. Although the vast vast majority of what we discussed is obviously NDA, one of things that came out of the meeting is that CCP is actively looking to tweak fozziesov, and is willing to have that change based on actual player experiences and anecdotes. So, as the CSM, we need YOU to share your anecdotes about Fozziesov! We'll be collecting them and forwarding them to CCP Seagull herself, as well as other developers.


  • Has your small alliance been able to capture space for the first time ever?
  • Are you playing World of Warships while AFK capping 800 command nodes?
  • Has your corporation or alliance's playstyle been radically altered by fozziesov?


We want to know these things, both positive and negative, so that we have real player's opinions and experiences. This will help give the CSM the firepower we need to enact real change and make the sov system better and more enjoyable for everyone. If you have any questions, I'll do my best to answer in the comment section below despite the NDA.

A few extra tidbits: CCP doesn't like the term "fozziesov" which implies that this update has been a one man show. CCP Fozzie is the lead designer for Team 5-0, which is the team responsible for the sovereignty overhaul. There are 7 developers on Team 5-0, including CCP Mimic, CCP Punkturis, CCP Masterplan and CCP Lebowski. Anyway, this discussion is expected to continue into late august, and the CSM hopes to have the majority of sov's current pain points resolved by the next two patches. Help us make it happen!

Edit: If you're wondering, the preferred term is "Aegis Sov" P

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#2 - 2015-07-31 16:04:47 UTC
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3 - 2015-07-31 16:09:16 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
CCP doesn't like the term "fozziesov" which implies that this update has been a one man show. CCP Fozzie is the lead designer for Team 5-0, which is the team responsible for the sovereignty overhaul. There are 7 developers on Team 5-0, including CCP Mimic, CCP Punkturis, CCP Masterplan and CCP Lebowski.


Ok, how about "FoMiPuMaLe SOV?" Big smile

I'll just copy paste my post form another thread. Overall It's not all that fun to me, the 'Focus" is wrong. It seems like something that appeals to small gang types, not "Fleet Fight" guys like me.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5931530#post5931530

Jenn aSide wrote:
I understand what people are saying when they say it's too early to tell. I didn't like the idea of Fozzie sov so i've been extra careful to actually observe it in action taking that pre-existing dislike into account.

That being said, I've now had a few experiences with 'Fozzie Sov', been in a few save fleets, and a few 'lets reinforce stuff' fleets in Wicked Creek, Detorid and Scalding Pass.

So far it's not been almost any kind of fun, it's been a bunch of sitting around doing nothing while others SovBeam stuff, or rushing 3-4 jumps to save one of our Entosisers from something that we can't catch or kill, or fighting skirmishes against people in 'slippery pete' style tengus (ok, I admit, killing them with tornadoes that one time was kind of fun).

In dominion sov at least you got to shoot something, or get some structure killmails. As useless and boring as that was, it was more fun that orbiting a gate while some dude sovlasers some crap because the people that reinforced the thing you are defending doesn't really want the space.

The problem with Fozzie sov is that it's like small gang focused, as if it' was trying to import the low sec way of life to null. If I wanted skirmishes and small gang stuff i would have stay in low, what I liked about null was fleet action. I haven't seen a Capital ship in a long time now.

Overall I'm still haivng fun in EVE and in null, there is PVE and Defense fleets and i join the occasional hot drop/wormhole drop fleet, but that fun used to be punctuated by the occasional FLEET FIGHT, now that isn't happening, at least where I'm at.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#4 - 2015-07-31 17:21:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
For the love of God just drop all nullsec mechanics and let the players sort it out. The citadels are a good idea, drop all the "magic" SOV crap around them. Add in more deployables to enable more f**kery. The players can and will manage SOV in ways that cannot simply be imagined.


Sandbox SOV. Let's have Sandbox SOV.

SOV mechanics is just another WiS endeavor soaking up resources and denying content to the rest of the game.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Get Pwned
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2015-07-31 17:39:33 UTC
Owning and taking sov by being afk for hours and hours orbiting a node is just too tedious, we don't want a game turning into a boring second job, I'm sure that every competent entity in the game would prefer to have the old hp grind back.

Entosis links shouldn't be able to be fitted to any ships below the size of cruisers.
Removing the entosis time penalty from capital ships would make suffering fatigue actually worth it. (you should be rewarded for your sp/ship price)
It makes no sense to punish the older alliances who have put a lot of time and effort into gathering and building supercarriers and titans, they should be perks and not unsubed accounts.

The entosis times are way too long. (42min at index 4? 10 times? are you taking a **** m8?)

Should have never hit TQ in its current state, and probably never would 5 years ago.
Snowmann
Arrow Industries
#6 - 2015-07-31 17:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Snowmann
I hope the following things will be taken into account:

No rules based system will ever have 100% acceptance.
Organizations trying to hold too much space will always have grievances with the difficulty of the current system.
Capital Ships should not be required to challenge Sov claims.
You should be required to be active in order to defend your Sov
Better organized smaller groups should do better than larger less organized groups
...Many other things said in the decision to change that should not be forgotten in order to please the masses.

Edit: Is it a mistake that groups should expect to hold the same amount of space as with the previous Sov system?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#7 - 2015-07-31 17:42:51 UTC
This is based on my alliance's experience in Vale of the Silent. Aegis Sov requires tedious PVE grinding. It requires the defenders to stand post for hours in order to respond to someone who will most likely run away and avoid a fight, if you actually respond. The balance is off, since the offense does not really have to commit anything to the fight in order to threaten space.

Grinding up defense indexes is a tedious activity. Eve players consistently complain about the boring monotony of running anomalies and mining for hours on end, but that is exactly what Aegis Sov requires. My alliance now has mandatory fleets for ratting and mining. This has been very bad for morale and has resulted in decreased numbers in corp chat and on comms. Part of this may be bitter vets being perverse: some of the same people who refuse to join mandatory ratting or mining fleets are the same folks who complained about mandatory structure grinding fleets in the past.

Actual fighting under Aegis Sov thus far has been limited to the normal small gang skirmishes against the usual suspects (e.g. good PVPers like Chessur visiting through wormholes). These are the same fights we would have had before. Almost none of these fights were caused by Entosis, or even the threat of Entosis. We would have gone out to fight these people anyway, because home defense fleets are fun.

There has also been a certain amount of chasing away trollceptors - who are not looking to get into a fight or even provoke a fight. They burn off at a high rate of speed as soon as you respond.

In one case, someone did actually Entosis something to the point that nodes spawned. No fight came of this, since the hostiles never came back. It just turned into a waste of time as we went around looking for the nodes and turning them off without any opposition.

If someone made a real push for another person's space, brute force and numbers would win the day. Aegis Sov comes down to knowledge of game mechanics and N+1, just as with Dominion Sov. I do not really have a problem with that.

In a fight between two evenly-matched groups, however, content denial is still the best strategy for contesting sovereignty (just as it was with Dominion Sov). Repeated harassment, followed by blue-balling, followed my more harassment, until they just stop logging in is the order of the day. Harass the defenders by using an Entosis link somewhere in their space. In an Interceptor, you can have an alt do this while you do something else. If they respond, burn off at high speed. You literally cannot lose your interceptor if you are paying attention. If they do not respond, then you just caused them an obnoxious number of nodes to spawn. They are forced to commit several times the effort now, or risk losing something nice. If you give them the satisfaction of a fight, you are doing it wrong.

That is why I believe Aegis Sov is a failure thus far, because it does not lead to more fights.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-07-31 18:58:43 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:


  • Has your small alliance been able to capture space for the first time ever?
  • Are you playing World of Warships while AFK capping 800 command nodes?
  • Has your corporation or alliance's playstyle been radically altered by fozziesov?



So for the first time ever CAS owned a SOV system for a while, in Fountain. (Yes, CAS is NPC, but we do have a few alts in an alliance.) We actually claimed it under Dominion Sov when BL consolidated their space a bit and left the system fallow. But we did spend a little bit of effort defending it under Aegis Sov, without any expectation of keeping the space. Just an experiment to try out the new system. (For a small while we actually held more Sov than our friends the FIGLs. P ) Since there was never much effort by others in attacking our space, nor much effort by us to defend or even live in our space (it had no outpost so there wasn't any place to stash ships as we weren't interested in bothering with POSes, we didn't bother setting up an i-hub, and it had no easy supply lines) we never got any real fights out of it. But it was an interesting, novel thing for us to try.

We'll continue enjoying our little home in Syndicate, which we "own" by way of occupying it, despite it being a very low-income area. It provides great opportunities for our small-gang PvP activities.

(The Yrton constellation in Cloud Ring has been interesting to watch, though. Go check out how often Sov has flipped there since, and just prior to, Aegis.)
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#9 - 2015-08-01 02:22:43 UTC
Id like to add to Jayne's noble thread a little. Do you all feel like my Narwhal game has been on point (no pun intended), or can I do better?




Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Kant Boards
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-08-01 06:36:25 UTC
My experience: no fights, lots of trolls, lots of interceptors, boring gameplay.

Worse than Dominion.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2015-08-01 07:12:58 UTC
It seems to me like most people just don't understand how Aegis-sov works.

Too many years of Dominion-sov where only the last timer counted, has left most people with that mindset, and dealing with the resulting node aftermath.

Aegis-sov is about preventing the first timer. Messing with nodes means you screwed-up.

That's just too complicated Roll /sarcasm
Seven Koskanaiken
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2015-08-01 08:46:42 UTC
I gate camped in a garmur for 3 hours while people did nodes.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#13 - 2015-08-01 09:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Tau Cabalander wrote:
It seems to me like most people just don't understand how Aegis-sov works.

Too many years of Dominion-sov where only the last timer counted, has left most people with that mindset, and dealing with the resulting node aftermath.

Aegis-sov is about preventing the first timer. Messing with nodes means you screwed-up.

That's just too complicated Roll /sarcasm


Preventing the first timer means no content. You are asking the defense to stand post all the time. To maintain an unrealistic level of readiness and alertness for a game. Or to blob up to the point that no one really wants to attack you (see, e.g. the Imperium).

As someone who has been in the military, standing post is boring as hell. Most of the time you stand there trying anything you can to stay awake, alert, and focused. A very small percentage of the time someone shoots at you or actively tries to kill you. Frightening as that may be, it's what you live for. I've consistently trained my Marines to "be a hard target" - to never let the enemy get the drop on them, to always find them prepared. Given the choice between attacking my Marines, who were alert and heavily armed, versus the Afghan soldiers two miles down the road, who were lounging around under the shade smoking marijuana, the enemy almost always went for the Afghans. Unfortunately, it does not translate well into a game. Yet that is what you are asking the defense to do in Aegis Sov.

No one seriously wants to have a go at Deklein. It's got an entire coalition crammed in and around there. The indexes are good. Poking Deklein will result in 10,000 bored and angry bees swarming after you. It is a hard target.

As for getting outside the wire, the real life equivalent of a roaming gang is a patrol. Just as with standing post, most of the time it is just tiring, boring, and stressful. Patrols suck when you are out on patrol for the 12th time in a week and nothing happens, but then a friend gets shot by a sniper you never saw, or steps on an IED, laid by an enemy you never saw. Even if you find the IED before it finds you, then you get stuck with more waiting, while EOD comes out to deal with it. Once again, that does not translate well into a game.

For an example of this, watch this video.

If Real Life was a game, no one would play it. Games are more fun when you are getting shot at, when someone is trying to kill you. Eve is fun when content comes to you. When that WH to Thera opens up and someone comes in to kill your weakest links, then you have a good brawl with them. If content does not come to you, then you go looking for it. Your roaming gang finds an enemy ambush, or catches some careless ratter, or otherwise interacts with the enemy.

Aegis Sov was supposed to promote confrontations between players. It was supposed to provide a means of encouraging the defense to undock whenever the roaming gang came through your space. For years, roamers complained that "everyone docks up and denies us content whenever we come through. We need some farms and fields we can pillage. We need someway to make them suffer for not fighting."

We have that now, but the balance is off. The defense has plenty of reason to be vigilant. It has plenty of reasons to get out there and fight. The offense, however, is not forced to make any level of commitment.

Part of the problem is tactical: kiting tactics are still king. Eve continues to be a game about evasion. Roaming into someone's space in Battle Cruisers or Battleships is usually a recipe for getting slaughtered. You are operationally unwieldy. The enemy can see you coming and get well-prepared to crush you. Tactically, you are also unwieldy. A more nimble enemy can dance around you and pick you apart. A stronger enemy can simply up ship you or outnumber you. So, the dominant meta for roaming gangs is agile, fast ship doctrines, built for hit and run. Get in quick, kill someone by surprise, run away before the blob can get after you. And now we have turned strategic combat into that same combat style.

Aegis Sov would be great if threatening space required the offense to bring a doctrine that could not simply run away and evade combat. If you want to come to my space and make me undock to fight you, then you should have to be in a ship that requires you to actually fight me. It should be a doctrine available to any group, without the need for sovereignty to build.

There needs to be a balance. If someone wants to actually get a fight out of you, they should have some means of doing that. But it has to be balanced on each side. Content denial and evasion has to stop being the best strategy.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2015-08-01 10:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
FT Diomedes wrote:
Preventing the first timer means no content. You are asking the defense to stand post all the time. To maintain an unrealistic level of readiness and alertness for a game. Or to blob up to the point that no one really wants to attack you (see, e.g. the Imperium).

I'm not asking anything. Blink

At ADM 6 your entire alliance can roam nearly an hour away, and still prevent a capture.

Assuming there is one person per structure left in the system (occupancy), say ratters or miners, they can even prevent capture.

As for Imperium defensive blobbing, that actually means they are fulfilling occupancy. It also means their defense can't roam far, even when that defense is a few super-caps that drop on anything. Of course that still leaves them with plenty of other ships because of their large membership.

Getting a fight from the Imperium is easy, just don't expect to win it without effort; they aim for "gud fights" for their members and not yours. There is no game mechanic that will change that to be in your favour.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#15 - 2015-08-01 12:34:52 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Preventing the first timer means no content. You are asking the defense to stand post all the time. To maintain an unrealistic level of readiness and alertness for a game. Or to blob up to the point that no one really wants to attack you (see, e.g. the Imperium).

I'm not asking anything. Blink

At ADM 6 your entire alliance can roam nearly an hour away, and still prevent a capture.

Assuming there is one person per structure left in the system (occupancy), say ratters or miners, they can even prevent capture.

As for Imperium defensive blobbing, that actually means they are fulfilling occupancy. It also means their defense can't roam far, even when that defense is a few super-caps that drop on anything. Of course that still leaves them with plenty of other ships because of their large membership.

Getting a fight from the Imperium is easy, just don't expect to win it without effort; they aim for "gud fights" for their members and not yours. There is no game mechanic that will change that to be in your favour.


As an Imperium member, I resent the implication that I would ever attack the Imperium. At least so long as my corporation is part of the coalition.

I am very familiar with our way of winning wars - blob, blue-ball, deny content, destroy enemy morale, win. While it often is a horrid way to play, I'm too committed to my wonderful corp mates to go elsewhere. Without the guys and gals in my corporation I would have "won Eve" a long time ago.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-08-01 15:23:01 UTC
It's tedious, unbalanced and very un-fun.

It's terrible, and needs a serious redoing.

There are detailed arguments and chronicled experiences aplenty in that Reddit thread, so I will not rehash any of it here. At the rate at which I'm seeing folks drop from the game, all this talk may be for naught soon anyway..
solrac lara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-08-02 03:54:00 UTC
I blow up a russian POS and i like it :D
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#18 - 2015-08-02 07:46:54 UTC
solrac lara wrote:
I blow up a russian POS and i like it :D



in Russia, POS blows up YOU

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Akballah Kassan
Flames Of Chaos
Droneland Prosperity Initiative
#19 - 2015-08-02 11:20:10 UTC
(Re-posted from another thread)

We had an entosis skirmish that escalated.

We started off in sniper Corms as we were entosising an IHUB. We killed a Maulus and jamming interceptor that tried to disrupt our operation. Then Goons escalated and brought a Caracal fleet, a harpy fleet and a mixed bag fleet. We burned back to our staging system and reshipped into Cerbs with Logi looking to try and defend our entosis ships and were doing well till Goons escalated with 2 Titans and a dozen or so carriers.

We still had fun though, no major head on fight but several skirmishes and a few good kills (including t2 cyno fit cruisers).

A few of our guys were complaining about overkill from Goons but if they have Titans and are prepared to throw them on grid fair play IMO. If they'd have stuck with the cruiser and Frig fleets we would have taken the fight but as always with CFC the strategic objective is far more important then any 'good fight'.
Fuque Sathienne
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2015-08-02 16:42:19 UTC
Fozzie sov was a good idea, poorly implemented

Its stagnates null and makes it impossible for attacked to do anythign versus a defended occupied space

It needs to go back to the drawing board and be rethinked


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