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More Content for Lowsec players/corporations/alliances? Advertise it.

Author
Bobaa Fett
Wraithguard.
The Wraithguard.
#1 - 2015-07-17 11:44:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobaa Fett
I made updates below to clarify things that some people misconstrued
Don't Take away the risk, but make it known just how lucrative lowsec can be, and find a way in the training program, to introduce some of the lowsec PvE and PvP mechanics in a way that a new pilot can understand, give them an idea as to what they should do to be able to fly there. This will potentially increase activity in these regions, reduce their fear of the notion, and perhaps help keep new and old subscribers interested. We love the sandbox, we joined for the sandbox, but an empty sandbox, or a sandbox full of old farts is a boring one.

Let me start with saying this: CCP, I love the ambition for the coming year and I hope this keeps up. But, as a lowsec pilot that is a part of a lowsec corporation without an alliance (Intentionally I add), I do have concerns for the little-guy.

A lot of recent updates and advertisements have been focused around sovereignty mechanics. I love the ideas, but as a primarily lowsec-based pilot in a standalone lowsec corporation, they almost have no effect on us, and in a way some balance acts, though improving large fleet doctrine viability and structures, may have had a bit of an adverse effect on the viability of some hulls in solo or small gang pvp crews that want to stay that way.

I love lowsec because of the risk and limitation. You have to think about what you're doing and, in my opinion, lowsec has remained the most true to the "Sandbox" mentality. That's not the problem. The problem is that lowsec doesn't appease enough players, it isn't as "glorified" as much as sovereignty is, or even incursioning. New players will tell you all the time that lowsec space is generally on their 'avoid' list, in essence, limiting content in lowsec space. There's hardly any incentive for the new player to go to lowsec unless it's bridging two essential highsec locations, or reached on accident (Let me add, I do not think lowsec pvp is dead. I just think it needs a kick in the arse.)

I made this edit to clarify; yes it is part on the community to bring more players to lowsec as some people mentioned, however you have to remember that there are restrictions and limitations that lowsec pilots who kill in lowsec space have, that limit us from easily accessing high-sec space to go and "recruit and teach" as someone suggested below, great idea but the application for us is too risky. Some of us simply don't field alts.

To be honest the only new characters I've seen in lowsec in the past week were generally alts of established pilots. If you're telling me new pilots fly through lowsec all the time, you might want to stand back and re-evaluate your situation.

What I mean to say in general is, although I love the updates, and how CCP is spicing things up for the future of EvE for those who enjoy massive pvp and pve opportunities, I only request that the little-guy is not forgotten. We would like to see additional content that will keep players, new and old alike, interested and immersed in both flying and living in lowsec space, not discouraged to.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-07-17 12:01:55 UTC
New player argument spotted. Stopped reading.

If you want more new players in low, then recruit and teach them. You can make a difference! That's the best way to go!

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-07-17 12:12:43 UTC
i think the issue is "vets" in highsec paint a bad picture of what low and null is to new players. but as said recruit the new players yourself, start a lowsec corp which is newbie friendly, give them free ships and advice, take them out to shoot stuff and they might like it.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-07-17 12:14:37 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
i think the issue is "vets" in highsec paint a bad picture of what low and null is to new players. but as said recruit the new players yourself, start a lowsec corp which is newbie friendly, give them free ships and advice, take them out to shoot stuff and they might like it.

Yeap! And if you do I'll donate you minerals and blueprints so they can even build ships themselves. Or I'll build them. Certainly, there is more you can do, than CCP could ever do.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Bobaa Fett
Wraithguard.
The Wraithguard.
#5 - 2015-07-17 12:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobaa Fett
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
New player argument spotted. Stopped reading.

If you want more new players in low, then recruit and teach them. You can make a difference! That's the best way to go!


Agreed, but that is not how lowsec works for the majority of established corporations that live there. Many Lowsec corps were designed to reap the rewards and loot of other players, and that's the reality of lowsec and what, I feel, it was designed for. I personally used to shoot new players a message with isk concerning fits, only after I've destroyed them, but "new pilots" in lowsec today are getting more rare, they are just alts and eyes for our competition.

There needs to be a 3rd party incentive other than the players in lowsec themselves, because those players are there to kill. They've established enemies in the system and are generally skeptical of someone who suddenly becomes interested in lowsec on a day 1 account - as they should be.

This post is intended to help CCP with sustaining subscribers through a developmental idea of activity - which is exactly what alliances do when they influence their ideas through CCP. The only difference is numbers. If CCP is only getting input from the majority (alliances) then all of their changes and ideas will only effect that group for the better. Many of the ship balancing acts recently have actually hurt smaller gangs balance where it improved the use of those hulls in larger fleet doctrine, in my opinion.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-07-17 12:25:28 UTC
reaping loot from other players is a dead profession, there is more lucrative ways lowsec players earn easier isk, killing t1 frigs aint profitable

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-07-17 12:29:56 UTC
Bobaa Fett wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
New player argument spotted. Stopped reading.

If you want more new players in low, then recruit and teach them. You can make a difference! That's the best way to go!


Agreed, but that is not how lowsec works for the majority of established corporations that live there. Many Lowsec corps were designed to reap the rewards and loot of other players, and that's the reality of lowsec and what, I feel, it was designed for. I personally used to shoot new players a message with isk concerning fits, only after I've destroyed them, but "new pilots" in lowsec today are getting more rare, they are just alts and eyes for our competition.

There needs to be a 3rd party incentive other than the players in lowsec themselves, because those players are there to kill. They've established enemies in the system and are generally skeptical of someone who suddenly becomes interested in lowsec on a day 1 account - as they should be.


Well ...... if you want more players in low, recruit them and teach them. If not, you create threads about it and argument against any work you might have to commit to that leads to what you actually want.

There is no incentive beyond you delivering one. ISK does not work, has been tried. The issue with lowsec is people not knowing how to survive, combined with assholes portraying it as deathtrap to new players.

No mechanic will change that, so you either want change and put work in, or you create threads like this like a peasant who can't do things himself.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Bobaa Fett
Wraithguard.
The Wraithguard.
#8 - 2015-07-17 12:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobaa Fett
Lan Wang wrote:
reaping loot from other players is a dead profession, there is more lucrative ways lowsec players earn easier isk, killing t1 frigs aint profitable


That's a pretty obvious statement, but an improvement of the PvE aspect in lowsec could help lure new players into lowsec space, that's the point I'm trying to get across. I don't make the majority of isk off players - though it happens.

Our corp, and many lowsec corporations aren't trying or wanting to recruit new players, they're trying to find more content. We've long retired from alliance clusterf***s and enjoy the freedom of working with far less numbers on our own terms. It's worked for years but now content has decreased, and from a development standpoint, I can see why.

If your approach worked, it would have worked a long long time ago. The problem is the lack of willing numbers available to recruit for the idea, who are willing to risk that playstyle.

Why? You lose security status, you lose your ability to supply yourself without having to pay for an alt. There is far too much for a new solo player to lose in lowsec in contrast to what they can gain from it without help, which is a potential catch 22 when the people who could help you are hunting you. This isn't about appealing to older subscribers, it's about appealing to new ones without changing the sandbox risk involved, or the need to dumb the mechanics down. That's a developer's challenge.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-07-17 12:35:41 UTC
Bobaa Fett wrote:
Our corp isn't trying or wanting to recruit new players


so what you are saying is you dont want to recruit new players you just want more new player in lowsec so you can shoot them?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-07-17 12:37:18 UTC
Bobaa Fett wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
reaping loot from other players is a dead profession, there is more lucrative ways lowsec players earn easier isk, killing t1 frigs aint profitable


That's a pretty obvious statement, but an improvement of the PvE aspect in lowsec could help lure new players into lowsec space, that's the point I'm trying to get across. I don't make the majority of isk off players - though it happens.

Our corp isn't trying or wanting to recruit new players, it's trying to find more content. We've long retired from alliance clusterf***s and enjoy the freedom of working isolated and in far less numbers. It's worked for years but now content has decreased, and from a development standpoint, I can see why.

No. ISK does not bring more people. See my post above. You might not know history enough to know this, but no amount of isk will bring more people to low. That only worked for explorers, because they can operate rather safely anyway.

This idea is so old, it has a beard. It doesn't work. If you want more people in low, then do something for that to happen.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Elizabet Forgrave
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#11 - 2015-07-17 12:42:34 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
No. ISK does not bring more people. See my post above. You might not know history enough to know this, but no amount of isk will bring more people to low. That only worked for explorers, because they can operate rather safely anyway.

This idea is so old, it has a beard. It doesn't work. If you want more people in low, then do something for that to happen.
It's never been tried. Lowsec has always been riskier than highsec with a small increase in isk, and riskier than null with a decrease in isk. There's no reason to live in lowsec, only a reason to live on the borders and fly into it. FW was the biggest attempt at getting isk into lowsec and they never bothered to fix the issues with it, so it's just farmed.
Bobaa Fett
Wraithguard.
The Wraithguard.
#12 - 2015-07-17 12:45:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobaa Fett
Lan Wang wrote:
Bobaa Fett wrote:
Our corp isn't trying or wanting to recruit new players


so what you are saying is you dont want to recruit new players you just want more new player in lowsec so you can shoot them?


That's exactly what I'm saying. In a sandbox mechanism, you will have your player archetypes. You need them to sustain the sandbox, or the sandbox becomes linaer. Low sec "piracy" (or we'd rather call ourselves opportunists) is a playstyle - a choice. Without potential targets, that playstyle dies. Without incentive to create those targets, that playstyle dies.

If we resort to mass recruiting we will have exactly what Nullsec and sov has, which is not at all what we want and have strived to get away from.

So in order for that playstyle to survive there has to be a mutual balance between the lowsec ganker looking to take out someone roaming into their system, and the player that is in pursuit of a lucrative goal.

There's already enough incentive for older subscribers to stay there, because at this point it's not for the isk, at least for us, it's for the fun of running low numbers of T1 hulls against greater numbers to test our piloting - in an attempt to out on top, failed or not.

There isn't enough incentive for new solo pilots to go there without a substantial amount of influence from veterans, and it shouldn't be that way. That isn't a flaw with community, it's a flaw with content appeal. Player interaction should be produced as a result of content, and vice versa, but since there's a lack of content, there's a lack of player interaction.
Anthar Thebess
#13 - 2015-07-17 12:50:10 UTC
Maybe good thing could be increase of the gate connections to Null space.
- more people moving
- more places to go

This could be good for low and null space.

Lets make simple rule.
1 gate to NPC space in each region, and you can easily have multiple places to have fun.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-07-17 12:54:32 UTC
all the time ive lived in lowsec ive never had an issue finding content, maybe you should move to a different area? the most capital kills i ever had were in lowsec, some of the best fleet fights were in lowsec, solo is great and i usually holiday in lowsec for solo frig fights, i personally think lowsec is fckin awesome

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Marsha Mallow
#15 - 2015-07-17 13:02:17 UTC
Lowsec does need some attention once this sov phase is done, yep.

There's word that CCP will be reviewing FW later this year and some of these tweaks will affect lowsec in general. It looks like CCP are focusing on FW rather than piracy as the lowsec entry point for new players, which is a shame in some ways. It's really hard to pinpoint why, but piracy as a playstyle seems to have been in decline for years to the point it's only viable for older players who are either part of larger groups or have alts in other areas. There appear to be plenty of new player alliances focused on null or FW but none of any real size/relevance that I can find dedicated to piracy.

CZ looks to be providing some of the best coverage on lowsec btw, see Niden for FW, Gorski/Apothne for small gang and a few others writing about the larger pirate alliances. Probably also worth keeping an eye on Sugar's blog.

The new structures will be deployable in low as well as null and hopefully act as content generators/loot pinatas. Some unique to lowsec or with slightly different mechanics might work. The only thing about creating more PVE type content in lowsec is the risk it will attract massive crap-tier farming alliances and all of the whiny little manbabbies who attach themselves to those organisations. You really don't want to end up with Sov-Lite in lowsec. However the area is made attractive and unique to players is a bit of a balancing act.

From a personal point of view, have you throught about relocating your corp? There are some areas that are dead but there are plenty with a lot of activity and it is worth being reasonably close to active FW areas.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2015-07-17 13:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Baaldor
Lan Wang wrote:
all the time ive lived in lowsec ive never had an issue finding content, maybe you should move to a different area? the most capital kills i ever had were in lowsec, some of the best fleet fights were in lowsec, solo is great and i usually holiday in lowsec for solo frig fights, i personally think lowsec is fckin awesome


This^^^

I read this kind of threads stating lo-sec is dead, solo is dead, and wonder where this is coming from. Truly I am thinking I am missing something and get all sad panda because the area I had a lot of fun living in lo-sec off and on over the years is ..dead?

From the days of October snow, Tiller, Miz etc etc to the present, you have some quality folks like Neg10, MOD, Black Rabbits just to name a few that seem to find content and maintain their presence for years. Now I know for a fact, these folks just don't live there to be bored. They are like any of us that need some sort of engagement to get the blood flowing and justify the time and money to play this game.

I would like to see some folks that are firmly established inlo-sec to chime in. I am far from an seasoned lo-sec dweller, but have hit the -10ish a few times and lived that way for a while.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2015-07-17 13:32:00 UTC
Bobaa Fett wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
reaping loot from other players is a dead profession, there is more lucrative ways lowsec players earn easier isk, killing t1 frigs aint profitable


That's a pretty obvious statement, but an improvement of the PvE aspect in lowsec could help lure new players into lowsec space, that's the point I'm trying to get across. I don't make the majority of isk off players - though it happens.

Our corp, and many lowsec corporations aren't trying or wanting to recruit new players, they're trying to find more content. We've long retired from alliance clusterf***s and enjoy the freedom of working with far less numbers on our own terms. It's worked for years but now content has decreased, and from a development standpoint, I can see why.

If your approach worked, it would have worked a long long time ago. The problem is the lack of willing numbers available to recruit for the idea, who are willing to risk that playstyle.

Why? You lose security status, you lose your ability to supply yourself without having to pay for an alt. There is far too much for a new solo player to lose in lowsec in contrast to what they can gain from it without help, which is a potential catch 22 when the people who could help you are hunting you. This isn't about appealing to older subscribers, it's about appealing to new ones without changing the sandbox risk involved, or the need to dumb the mechanics down. That's a developer's challenge.


It's not a developper challenge it's a community challenge. As long as low sec pirate corp (call them whatever you want really) don't want to put in the effort of training at least some new blood, there won't be new blood sticking there.

Low-sec over hunt their prey and never do anything to make the herd get bigger. It's unsustainable and you see that by your trouble finding content.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2015-07-17 13:34:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Initially I was going to post some drivel about contrived system that would be required to make conflicting goals of financial well-being and participating in explosions working for each other, and how FW didn't manage to do that because farming and fighting are still separate activities, one of them not bringing content and another not making ISK, and then about how "PvP-like PvE content" still won't solve s*** for similar reasons... But then I decided to simply outline the main principle here:

As sandbox video game, EVE requires CCP to put material rewards where they are, but relies on players to make extracting them a challenge. On paper, it's all fine: the more desirable reward is, the more people will come to contest it, making it more of a challenge to acquire. However, resources are limited while threat from players may be hypothetically limitless. Just by enabling players to freely use force (which is the essence of non-HS space), you are creating such a situation. By putting slightly more reward you aren't likely to shift risk/reward, and then there's the problem with not flooding the markets if you put too much (see current explo problems, even though they aren't caused exclusively by explo loot seeding). I don't know how to improve it.

The logical answer is to leave it as it is and admit that this is inherent in sandbox design and it takes particular kind of person to enjoy this environment. Another is to design FW 2.0. Well, good luck with that.

Now, I'm not against idea of improving lowsec, but as you can see CCP has put a lot of resources for us to gather there, but it has hardly improved the situation. Lowseccers that are there for pew still don't get richer when they do what they are there for. Farmers still have to minimize risks in order to maximize profits and so aren't willing to skyrocket amount of content for the rest. In any case, you still have to call for farming op (even if it's 1-man op) if you want to get what was given to you, and then... Well, see that bullet about farmers and their goals.

So, here's your problem.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-07-17 13:39:26 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=433911

Here's the thread with lots of people talking about lowsec.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Bubba Ovaert
Doomheim
#20 - 2015-07-17 13:51:45 UTC
All lowsec needs is bubbles.
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