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Where is my Torpedo NAGA?

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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#81 - 2011-12-08 19:50:19 UTC
Jhan Niber wrote:
So, you're learning that some of your racial ships aren't quite fitting into it's stereotypical categories just like every other race has. I'm a pure Minmatar pilot and I have focused primarily on Projectile weapons, but if I want to fly a Typhoon well I'm going to have to learn to use missiles and drones well. Amarrians have their few missile based ships as well like the Malediction, the Sacrilege, and certain versions of the Legion. The Gallente are very drone and armor heavy, but then you have the Hyperion which is a big shield tanked blaster boat, so just be happy they didn't force the Naga to work best with armor on top of everything.


No, I learned that if I want to fly the Naga I need to train hybrids, which I hadn't focused on before due to training drake/tengu.

So I am.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Qin Shi Huang
Doomheim
#82 - 2011-12-08 20:19:05 UTC
Jhan Niber wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles
Pff. That just made them poorly dedicated… P


Perhaps, but I'm a good example... my combat pilot did exactly this. All I've heard of training into is the drake, the drake or optionally the drake. Hence, missile dedication.

Now it like... gunz? Gunz. Guhns? Guuuuuunnnnnnzzzzzzssss....


So, you're learning that some of your racial ships aren't quite fitting into it's stereotypical categories just like every other race has. I'm a pure Minmatar pilot and I have focused primarily on Projectile weapons, but if I want to fly a Typhoon well I'm going to have to learn to use missiles and drones well. Amarrians have their few missile based ships as well like the Malediction, the Sacrilege, and certain versions of the Legion. The Gallente are very drone and armor heavy, but then you have the Hyperion which is a big shield tanked blaster boat, so just be happy they didn't force the Naga to work best with armor on top of everything.


An armour tanked Caldari BC with 7 Torp launchers? I freakin love the idea. The NAGA is already slower than the armour heavy Talos, so why not. Anyway, as the CCP dev explained earlier: we know that missiles sucks donkey balls, so we made it a gunboat.

Should I fly the Talos or the Naga? (no skill requirements) 7.5% Tracking bonus vs. 10% to optimal. 200K range or 150K. Damn, too many options.

.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#83 - 2011-12-09 00:24:26 UTC
Amro One wrote:
To the morons that want a torp naga.

There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.

There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b.
So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.

Think before you speak morons.

P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.


Funny that the raven got 8 after the rof bonus and the golem also got 8 after 100% damage bonus, similar as the Naga.
Way to go, showing off your superior knowledge about caldari good sir.

Dbars Grinding wrote:
lol hybrids.


This.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2011-12-09 00:48:46 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Amro One wrote:
To the morons that want a torp naga.

There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.

There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b.
So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.

Think before you speak morons.

P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.


Funny that the raven got 8 after the rof bonus and the golem also got 8 after 100% damage bonus, similar as the Naga.
Way to go, showing off your superior knowledge about caldari good sir.

Dbars Grinding wrote:
lol hybrids.


This.


Fun fact: The golem is substantially more PVP viable than a bonus-less torpedo naga.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#85 - 2011-12-09 01:00:02 UTC
Amro One wrote:
To the morons that want a torp naga.

There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.

There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b.
So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.

Think before you speak morons.

P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.


There are many good reasons why the torp Naga would have been hopeless. This is not one of them. The State Raven is not worth 100 bn because it has 8 launchers, it's worth 100 bn because it's a State Raven.
Infinion
Awesome Corp
#86 - 2011-12-09 02:39:06 UTC
CCP Ytterbium,

Did you consider just removing the split bonus for torpedoes but retaining the missile hardpoints? Having hybrid-only bonuses would still cater players towards using railguns but would also give them the option to fit missiles. It would be almost exactly how the Rohk was designed, except it only gets half the hardpoints.
Pika Pedel
Doomheim
#87 - 2011-12-09 02:50:23 UTC
I can't tell if he is saying caldari hybrid ships are now fine or if they're not fine and are going to be iterated on. I hope it's the latter.

Although the post was amusing so +1 anyway.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#88 - 2011-12-09 08:41:06 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.


All so terribly true. That won't stop me remembering my thoroughly enjoyable if brief affair with the torpedo Naga :)

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Hwong Jian
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2011-12-09 10:36:56 UTC
Am I the only person who read through this thread and pictured an Ang Lee style movie based on EVE?

I can see it now... Brokeback Fountain, with Qin Shi Huang holding a torpedo and saying "I just can't quit you."
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#90 - 2011-12-09 11:06:59 UTC
Shivus Tao wrote:
Fun fact: The golem is substantially more PVP viable than a bonus-less torpedo naga.


It had the same bonuses as the Golem in the first draft as well.

I actually liked the torp naga and I think a quick torp ship with solid range and dps could have been a good addition to the caldari lineup overall and would have been well balanced against the tornado(if ccp would have cut the dps a bit) or the Oracle(if CCP would have sticked with the original concept of a long range harbinger instead of a more mobile Abaddon w/o cap issues).

I am well aware that the ship does the basically the same dps at 50km with rails than it was able to do with javelins before the change(something around the 700+ dps ballpark) however the tracking compared to the tornado or oracle with close range guns is pretty disappointing at this ranges and in the end you just end up with another sniper ship(a good one, I give you that) instead of a sniper and a fairly good medium range ship(like the Oracle and Tornado). You could call it personal taste that I would have preferred the close to medium range option more, on the other hand caldari already have tons of sniper hulls in her lineup that see next to no use ingame, because other hulls are just better outside of sniping.

I guess that you could add that the optimal + damage bonuses + better tank makes the Naga far better than the Talos in bigger fights, but this is more or less trivial given the overall relevance of it where it gets beaten by the alternatives at sniping and medium range while it brings nothing to the table that would have made it realistically work at point blank.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Zerakix
The White Mantle
#91 - 2011-12-09 11:56:16 UTC
Jhan Niber wrote:

So, you're learning that some of your racial ships aren't quite fitting into it's stereotypical categories just like every other race has. I'm a pure Minmatar pilot and I have focused primarily on Projectile weapons, but if I want to fly a Typhoon well I'm going to have to learn to use missiles and drones well. Amarrians have their few missile based ships as well like the Malediction, the Sacrilege, and certain versions of the Legion. The Gallente are very drone and armor heavy, but then you have the Hyperion which is a big shield tanked blaster boat, so just be happy they didn't force the Naga to work best with armor on top of everything.



Ya nothing beats having to train for both shield and armor tanking while also training for projectiles and missiles in order to use all of the Winmatar ships correctly...
Hemmo Paskiainen
#92 - 2011-12-09 12:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.


    • U just analyze a problem, let me answere with a fix :
    Let cruise missiles go faster.

    Not that im interested in a missile naga, cant rly be botherd, but just to fix the game a bit more :)

    Nice job on the hulls and an entire new divertitile way of fleeting in 0.0, hac´s were bad on sniping anyway

    wtb BO fix

    If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
    Vanessa Vansen
    Vandeo
    #93 - 2011-12-12 09:43:21 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!

    Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight© season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE© WABBAJACK©!


    More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things.

    So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true.

    We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3.


    So we had to weight the options here:

    • Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.

    • Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.

    • Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.


    So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.


    Thanks a lot!
    That was exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
    I would have loved a torpedo naga though but I'm fine with the explanation above.