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Where is my Torpedo NAGA?

First post
Author
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#41 - 2011-12-08 10:16:28 UTC
Qin Shi Huang wrote:
I'm sure there are many other threads discussing the NAGA, but I don't give a hoot. I just re-subscribed to fly a Torp NAGA and now the NAGA is a Hybrid gunboat - WTF!

I don't care about the theoretical role as a "sniping platform" - I have never been in a sniper fleet and I struggle to see how a long-range ****-poor DPS fleet will do as a tactical concept. I guess we need Pandemic Legion to get their heads out of thier collective assess and figure this out.

Crucible is a great release - it's a way in the right direction. Making the NAGA a gunboat is a result of 60+M SP Chars cracking the numbers on how they can use it. Not how it was intended - the NAGA was intended to be a poor mans choice (SP & ISK) to fight the Super-Cap spam.

My NAGA needs Torpedoes and my Hawk needs the 4th bonus.


You need your posting roles removed. You also need to get out of my caldari ships because you're clearly not sophisticated enough to appreciate the joy of having both worlds in a single race with regards to gunnery and misilles. It's just disgusting that you would even consider yourself a caldari pilot limiting yourself to only half of their ships.
Qin Shi Huang
Doomheim
#42 - 2011-12-08 10:40:48 UTC
Give it a rest with the fracking patch notes :) of course I read them .. after re-subbing.

I guess i'll just sit in station and spin one of the other very popular Caldari gunboats while training hybrids and dreaming about a cost-efficient Caldari PVP missile boat. The spin counter is excellent! My life now has meaning. Specializing in weapons is for wussies - i'll train lazors next.

.

ivar R'dhak
Deus est Mechanicus
#43 - 2011-12-08 11:32:37 UTC
Throwing a like your way.
For what looked like a mediocre troll-fart this thread was actually semi amusing.
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#44 - 2011-12-08 11:43:18 UTC
Vachir Khan wrote:
This is just another "I fly Caldari and I trained only missiles because fck you, and now I'm bawling", isn't it?

Yep, it is
Farrisen
MoaR ChickeN
#45 - 2011-12-08 12:55:29 UTC
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Naga pleeze


And a new meme is born? Big smile

http://i.imgur.com/DWBuV.png

Originally by: CCP Spitfire: It's because of falcon.

CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2011-12-08 12:57:38 UTC
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!

Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight© season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE© WABBAJACK©!


More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things.

So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true.

We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3.


So we had to weight the options here:

  • Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.

  • Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.

  • Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.


So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.
Farrisen
MoaR ChickeN
#47 - 2011-12-08 13:02:37 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!

Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight© season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE© WABBAJACK©!


More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things.

So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true.

We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3.


So we had to weight the options here:

  • Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.

  • Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.

  • Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.


So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.


+1
I for one feel the hybrid boat is better :)

http://i.imgur.com/DWBuV.png

Originally by: CCP Spitfire: It's because of falcon.

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#48 - 2011-12-08 13:14:52 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
*snip really good stuffs*


Whoa, an actual explanation that makes perfect sense. Dude, if you'd mentioned this after the change there would (or should) have been much less heartbreak out there.

Thanks for a highly explanative post that clears things up nicely. So is it safe to assume, based on the tone of things, that hybrids are going to receive further lovin' across other ships as well?

I started training guns up to give the Naga it's due... this would be good news to know the training will definitely project across more than just the Naga.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
#49 - 2011-12-08 13:15:26 UTC
Qin Shi Huang wrote:
I'm sure there are many other threads discussing the NAGA, but I don't give a hoot. I just re-subscribed to fly a Torp NAGA and now the NAGA is a Hybrid gunboat - WTF!

I don't care about the theoretical role as a "sniping platform" - I have never been in a sniper fleet and I struggle to see how a long-range ****-poor DPS fleet will do as a tactical concept. I guess we need Pandemic Legion to get their heads out of thier collective assess and figure this out.

Crucible is a great release - it's a way in the right direction. Making the NAGA a gunboat is a result of 60+M SP Chars cracking the numbers on how they can use it. Not how it was intended - the NAGA was intended to be a poor mans choice (SP & ISK) to fight the Super-Cap spam.

My NAGA needs Torpedoes and my Hawk needs the 4th bonus.


It does suck man!
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards
No Response
#50 - 2011-12-08 13:27:33 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse!


Best part of the post there.

http://www.wormholes.info

Cailais
Tao Expeditionary
#51 - 2011-12-08 13:33:01 UTC
Lysandus was King of Daggerfall. He was born to Arslan II and Nulfaga in the year 3E 354. He eventually married Mynisera, with whom he had a son Gothryd, who succeeded him as king. His life was cut short after 57 years in 3E 403 when he died during the War of Betony, in what was later revealed to be a trap set by Lord Woodborne of Wayrest.

Just wanted to clarify that in case anyone was wondering.

C.
Dan Pyre
Armor Victor
#52 - 2011-12-08 13:35:55 UTC
CCP Ytterbium,

I, along with most of the eve player base, very much appreciate that you and the team confirmed work on the Caldari hybrid boats. However, could you please please please please confirm that the Nighthawk is being looked at as well? It is currently very underwhelming in PvP, not to mention it has less power grid than it's TECH ONE variant? There is literally no reason to use a nighthawk in PvP over a Drake at the moment, and you know we all love diversity.

Sincerely,

Someone who has BC level V but has no reason to train Caldari cruiser V to get access to the Nighthawk
Kata Amentis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2011-12-08 13:50:53 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
*snip really good stuffs*


Whoa, an actual explanation that makes perfect sense. Dude, if you'd mentioned this after the change there would (or should) have been much less heartbreak out there.

Thanks for a highly explanative post that clears things up nicely. So is it safe to assume, based on the tone of things, that hybrids are going to receive further lovin' across other ships as well?

I started training guns up to give the Naga it's due... this would be good news to know the training will definitely project across more than just the Naga.


I think you might have missed this...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=358849#post358849

... it's the same explantation as above in a slightly less wordy form, given at the time they changed the naga's specs on sisi.

Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#54 - 2011-12-08 13:52:15 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.


You have but to change the Rokh's range bonus to a damage bonus and you will make me a happy man.

Oh, and the Ferox's tanking bonus to a RoF bonus please...


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Haleuth
Peoples Liberation Army
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2011-12-08 13:52:46 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!

Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight© season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE© WABBAJACK©!


More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things.

So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true.

We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3.


So we had to weight the options here:

  • Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.

  • Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.

  • Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.


So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.


I just want to say, i'm really liking the new CCP these days. For years you never really discussed issues with the players on the forums. You never gave explanations.

Your post CCP Ytterbium and the expansion you guys have just delivered really show that you have changed for the better.

Thank you
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2011-12-08 14:15:05 UTC
Qin Shi Huang wrote:
Not a single reply tried to even remotely justify the hyprid NAGA. A few posts even attacked my source of information. Too funny.



Thats cos it has already been said on the other threads which you are just too lazy to look at.

And the posts aren't attacking your source of information, they are attacking YOU for been a MORON.

Its that simple. Stop acting like a Moron and people will stop treating you like one.

Naga is fine with Rails/Blasters, its one of the best of the T3s, it would have sucked with torps.

If you can't be bothered to read the patch notes, the only person you can blame for not knowing what was in them is YOU.

Quote:
How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles


Now I WANT a gun that shoots drones! That would rock! Enemy frig sitting at 100km off gate scouting, no problem, BANG, 5 drones on him ;)

-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more) 

Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2011-12-08 14:17:14 UTC
Quote:
dreaming about a cost-efficient Caldari PVP missile boat.


You realise that is an EXACT description of the drake??????

-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more) 

Hicksimus
Torgue
#58 - 2011-12-08 14:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Hicksimus
Rhinanna wrote:
Quote:
dreaming about a cost-efficient Caldari PVP missile boat.


You realise that is an EXACT description of the drake??????



You mean 350dps at 80km with a better tank than almost every battleship for 30 million isn't a good pvp deal? Oh it gets light drones to fight frigates as well!

You can even use the natural tank of the drake to run a couple of webs and you still have more tank than most other ships.....

Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.

Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#59 - 2011-12-08 14:46:15 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!


F*king Timmy, I always knew that kid was up to no good.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

Qin Shi Huang
Doomheim
#60 - 2011-12-08 14:48:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium: Thanks for the explanation.



Rhinanna wrote:
Quote:
dreaming about a cost-efficient Caldari PVP missile boat.


You realise that is an EXACT description of the drake??????


Yes - in the same way a cost-efficient Gallente PVP gunboat could be Brutix or Talos Blink

.