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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2015-06-22 17:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Karti Aivo
I for one welcome our new Armor Ishtar Overlords

may it be a happy year until the next iteration!
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2015-06-22 17:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Otsdarva IV wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.

Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right?


To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however


The armageddon, the arbitrator, the dragoon, drone based legions, the stratios, the astero, the nestor, the archon. curse, pilgrim

IE, anything you would stick a DDA to just got nerfed.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#143 - 2015-06-22 17:16:09 UTC
Otsdarva IV wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.

Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right?


To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however


Prophecy, Geddon, Curse, Pilgrim, Arbitrator, Dragoon, Sentinel. Maybe a couple others depending on your fit for them

After missiles start getting nerfed in about 12 months time, Geddon gets hit again, Sac, Damnation etc get hit.
Selo ibnSedef
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#144 - 2015-06-22 17:16:20 UTC
everything is happening as ccp chair stated during his keynote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PM0H-teYGg
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#145 - 2015-06-22 17:16:29 UTC
Karti Aivo wrote:
I for one welcome our new Armor Ishtar Overlords

may it be a happy year until the next iteration!


Brawl blaster Ishtar was armour at one time. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Francisco Vazquez Garcia
Medical Leeches First Come First Served
#146 - 2015-06-22 17:16:35 UTC
Couldn't the sentries be more vulnerable to damage while they are firing? IE easier to target or (smart)bomb? They could return to current parameters when abandoned.

Maybe drones could also loose a percentage of "power" when the mothership is targeted with ECM (slower rate of fire), or tracking disrupted (tracking), or sensor damped (lowe drone control range).
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#147 - 2015-06-22 17:16:42 UTC


Thanks for nerfing all the other ships that you don't really see.

But hey, someone whined for sure, so nerf them all !

This is stupid.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#148 - 2015-06-22 17:16:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Alexhandr Shkarov wrote:
Quote:
First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE


The current changes are nice but they essentially don't change the true problem of the Ishtar, Sentry Drones.
If you truly want to change the meta, you'll be much better off by actually removing all sentry bonuses to the ship's hull, and invest those bonuses into more heavy drones benefits.

Now I may be completely off the bat here, but what would happen if the bonuses would change to:

Gallente Cruiser Bonus per Level:
- 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone damage (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus)
- 7.5% bonus to velocity and tracking

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses per skill-level
- 2500m bonus to drone operation range (-2500 to lower engage range and make them more risky)
- 12.5% bonus to light / medium / heavy drone health (+2.5% to offset Sentry Bonus)

Role Bonus:
Drones take 15% less damage from Smartbombs



Just thinking about something that could be an idea? It would make sentries a lot weaker and force them, in combination with the slot changes, to possibly be more close-range focused?

Or change the role bonus to +150% optimal range and orbit velocity (on non-sentry drones) so they are outside the smartbomb range of the ship they are targeting and stay engaged on faster ships.
Harry Saq
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2015-06-22 17:17:34 UTC
Seriously, for the Ishtar, just drop the sentry bonuses and make it heavy drone bonused already. It is not that difficult a riddle, same for any other non-BS using Sentries.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#150 - 2015-06-22 17:20:15 UTC
CCP, do not be afraid to over-nerf something. The short release cycle not only aids slow, incremental changes, but larger, more dramatic changes as well. You're so fond of changing and measuring -- why not go further than what your gut tells you, then measure?

Remove sentry bonuses from the Ishtar.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2015-06-22 17:21:29 UTC
Is there a reason you're making the ishtar so slow? Have you actually seen the m/s of an ishtar with a 1600mm plate/armor rigs?

I for one love the idea of armor ishtars that dont rely on op sentry drones, but they can't be outrun by drakes if they are going to work, thanks D:

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#152 - 2015-06-22 17:22:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.

First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes:
  • -1 mid slot, +1 low slot
  • Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000
  • Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s
  • Agility going from .52 to .565
  • Power grid lowered from 780 to 740

    • Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor.

    Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows:

    Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%)
    Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%)

    Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)

    Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%)
    Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%)
    Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%)
    Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%)


    And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.

    We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.

    Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know!


    Most of the changes look good, but I still think the major reason for Ishtars Online is the bonus to sentry-drone damage. Remove or nerf that and you'll see progress faster then with just tweaking everything else under the sun.

    Also I should point out the nerf to Drone Damage Amplifiers hits some ships, like the Arbitrator and the Pilgrim, extra hard. Those ships mostly depend on E-War to survive and don't really have much DPS to begin with. Both ships can't really work with a shield fit and those ships are rather flimsy without at least some tank modules. The nerf isn't that bad in raw numbers, I just wanted to point out not all drone ships are super-powered little monsters like the Ishtar and the Stratios.

    I think if you want to nerf the Amplifiers you should go back and tweak some of the drone ships without massive sentry bonus to compensate. Or you could just not nerf the Amplifiers and nerf the Ishtar itself some more, I guess. Smile
    Rivr Luzade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #153 - 2015-06-22 17:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
    Hm. Now I can remove all the Tracking from the Mids to 3 TEs in the Lows. Or 2 TE, 2 DDA, 1 DCU and a Nano in the lows for better speed and maneuverability. Or a PDS for more cap, more shield and some PG. And 2 DLA I think for even more range since the 2nd LSE doesn't clog up the CPU. I wonder if these changes mean anything at all. Roll

    Reiteration: Remove the application bonuses for sentries from the Ishtar. And the ship is fixed.

    UI Improvement Collective

    My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
    Otsdarva IV
    Dirt 'n' Glitter
    Local Is Primary
    #154 - 2015-06-22 17:23:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Otsdarva IV
    Dez Affinity wrote:
    Otsdarva IV wrote:
    Dez Affinity wrote:
    The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.

    Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right?


    To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however


    Prophecy, Geddon, Curse, Pilgrim, Arbitrator, Dragoon, Sentinel. Maybe a couple others depending on your fit for them

    After missiles start getting nerfed in about 12 months time, Geddon gets hit again, Sac, Damnation etc get hit.


    I mean I get that they're all drone boats, and I get that because of that fact they are all theoretically nerferd. But in practice I don't think the changes really matter. Geddons seem to be relegated to a heavy neut platform, the dragoon's strengths aren't in its DPS the arbitrator is looking at losing like 10 DPS on what is also typically bait, neut or other support fit. The sentinel is REALLY strong for small gang, so a nerf is welcome.

    Recons are fair enough, but I honestly feel the intended nerfs for the rest of the amarr line are either needed or negligible.
    Otsdarva IV
    Dirt 'n' Glitter
    Local Is Primary
    #155 - 2015-06-22 17:25:21 UTC
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
    Otsdarva IV wrote:
    Dez Affinity wrote:
    The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.

    Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right?


    To be fair the only one that's REALLY affected by these changes is the prophecy right? I might be missing something however


    The armageddon, the arbitrator, the dragoon, drone based legions, the stratios, the astero, the nestor, the archon. curse, pilgrim

    IE, anything you would stick a DDA to just got nerfed.


    I know, but most of the ships either need a nerf, don't use DDAs or don't use drones as their primary purpose
    Desudes
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #156 - 2015-06-22 17:25:41 UTC
    Just remove the sentry bonuses and add more drone hp/armor hp so the ishtar can finally be gallente pride

    Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
    Judaa K'Marr
    Shadow Legions.
    SONS of BANE
    #157 - 2015-06-22 17:26:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Judaa K'Marr
    Suitonia wrote:
    CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix

    http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png


    No Amarr in there, and with the exception Domi all use shields or have a dual tank option, allowing them to whizz around at max range with little to no speed/tank/tracking penalty other kiting ships suffer. Stop scapegoating drones when the problem is with the kitey hulls.
    ugly inside
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #158 - 2015-06-22 17:26:38 UTC
    the WOW version of what CCP is doing: HOW TO BALANCE THE GAME
    Steve Dalton
    Sniggerdly
    Pandemic Legion
    #159 - 2015-06-22 17:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Dalton
    The issue with the Ishtar is both its extreme kiting range and the range at which it can control the battleship equivalent weapons it can launch. This change doesn't fix this.

    How about making sentry bandwidth higher so that a cruiser can't field five, and reducing that penalty the bigger your ship gets? This means that battleships and capitals can use them, but they can't be abused by a HAC anymore.

    Or, following everybody else's suggestion - remove the sentry bonus on the Ishtar hull. Fixes that hull, doesn't obfuscate the issue by nerfing ships hardly anybody uses to fix the one that everybody does use.
    FT Cold
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #160 - 2015-06-22 17:30:47 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

    And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.

    We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.


    Glad to see this is finally going to happen.