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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Hullender
Biafra' State
#661 - 2015-07-04 12:37:40 UTC
Crimson Grimslow wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Mah DDAs! *sadface* (minor change, shouldn't be that big a deal, will need to do maths).

Edit: Confirmed, not a big deal to other drone boats. Just enough to bring them back in line a bit.

+1 on DDA changes.

I concur i was scared for a second but the changes wont effect me too badly +1 for drone damage amps

It won't affect you too badly but for people like me who have spent most of their time in eve training nothing but drones particularly for PVE it becomes a problem. It means we'll spend more time doing PVE we don't like to make up for the damage loss to keep isk income at the same level. Sad part is if you look at ships like the Tristan, it isn't popular because of its dps, the Gila and Worm were over powered from the beginning because of several factors like good mobility, impressive tank and dps. There are balanced ships including drone boats you hardly see in the game that match and sometimes out dps ships like the worm, like a gank fit ishkur. A flat out nerf to all drone boats makes no sense to me and I wish there was better data to show something I'm perhaps missing. If these problem drone boats were individually adjusted it'll make more sense rather than this nerf to every single ship in the game that fits a dda. And yeah it'll concern you too if you have 10mil sp and 6mil of that sp is in drones. Doesn't matter anyway patch notes are out.
Rhedea
Gorthaur Legion
Imperium Mordor
#662 - 2015-07-04 18:59:02 UTC
Just a thought; why not make sentry drones an anti-drone weapon (can't shoot ships) fit them with blaster or other pistol weapons. limited cargo so when they run out you have to reload in your drone bay. Battle ship weapons should be on a ship not a drone.
Ordala
Loud'n'Proud
#663 - 2015-07-04 19:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ordala
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.


rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do?

At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and you stomp it to the ground.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#664 - 2015-07-04 19:25:19 UTC
Ordala wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.


rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do?

At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and stomp it to the ground.


Titan pilots got nothing when they nerfed them several times. You deserve nothing for training into a fotm and then getting stung.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#665 - 2015-07-04 19:38:54 UTC
Ordala wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.


rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do?

At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and stomp it to the ground.

Had nearly max drone skills since before DDAs were around and most drones modules only had T1 versions. PVE drones were only Gallente drones and PVP drones were only Minmatar drones.
This is a small Nerf to drones overall , and we finally get an armor Ishtar.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#666 - 2015-07-04 21:56:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.


This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


I think that you are looking at it the wrong way though Rise. Drone ships should be bandwidth restricted, but downwards compatible, not upwards. If you don't want to lock classes, which is ok with me, (as long as you can't go up) adjust the bandwidth of drone capabilities. You did it once already with Guristas ships, now finish the job by overhauling all ships so that only battleships and carriers can use 5 sentries (or more).

Ishtars would still be able to use sentries and heavies, but restricted to 3 because of bandwidth etc.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
E1ev1n
Big Sister Exploration
#667 - 2015-07-05 14:08:28 UTC
Kibitt Kallinikov wrote:
Sumeragy wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Why did the level of literacy drop so sharply in the past 3 pages?

The drake didn't take a <6% drop in damage.



I would say more, it did lost a Weapon slot and the heavy missiles where nerved now they are buffing it again (the heavy missiles). The Drake lost also a lot of Tank.


Old Drake: 7 missile launchers, 5% kinetic missile bonus = 8.75 effective launchers

New Drake: 6 missile launchers, 10% kinetic missile bonus = 9 effective launchers

I'm not sure if there was ever a point where it had 7 launchers with 10% bonus, but the new Drake definitely deals more kinetic DPS than the old one.

The old drake had the same kinetic damage profile. So your calculations are off sir.
E1ev1n
Big Sister Exploration
#668 - 2015-07-05 14:18:33 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
E1ev1n wrote:
While I believe I understand why you felt the need to adjust DDAs I don't at all agree with the decision as it is not an "Ishtar" module but rather a "Drone" module which I am fairly certain is clear in their descriptions. The issue I see with this is an over-reaching nerf hammer hitting every drone based dps ship not to mention the ones using a complement of drones and guns in balance. Surely there is a better way to reduce DPS (if that is in fact what you are trying to do to Ishtars) than changing DDAs as they will affect more than just Ishtars.


Did you miss that part?

CCP Rise wrote:


Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows:



Yeah I did, who knew a goon could be useful too.

I am still not happy with DDA's being nerfed, the changes last summer were all about nerf hammering the drones too. It's not the right way to do this, if damage is low in other hull classes buff their damage amplifiers respectively don't just take from drones because it's a top level (most costly sp wise to be good) weapon system. I am mentioning this because previously this year the nerf hammer has also hit carriers which fly drones as well, other cap ships are included in my assessment of weapon systems. Overall I could realistically see damage output of Ishtars going up based on the change of a mid slot to a low slot.
tbms
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#669 - 2015-07-05 17:14:45 UTC  |  Edited by: tbms
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.

Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know!



small balance changes ?
Egillief Tsun
Doomheim
#670 - 2015-07-05 20:27:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes:
...
At least you provide information what you want to get fixed. Kudos for trying!!!
Question: What is the PVP meta for Ishtar? What is it that needs to be fixed?

My guess is, it is still sentries and the unique ability of a cruiser hull to be actually good at kitting even after this hull change.

Just to throw it out again: sentries need stationary game play enforced. move out of of drone scope range and sentry drones self destruct (ok maybe to harsh, auto disconnect. double the scope range.).

DDA nerf. ok. What exactly is the problem with anything else NOT a Ishtar hull that fits DDAs? I'm confused.
Oxide Ammar
#671 - 2015-07-05 21:36:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ordala wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.


rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do?

At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and stomp it to the ground.


Titan pilots got nothing when they nerfed them several times. You deserve nothing for training into a fotm and then getting stung.


That's why many Titan pilots left the game, don't kid yourself.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Captain Nuf
Zeura Brotherhood
#672 - 2015-07-05 21:50:19 UTC
Sad

Okay quack nerfers. You win. The -1 mid +1 low change has me selling my Ishtars alone.

Take away Sentry Bonus
If you really want to kill Ishtars like you did the other HACs - and as it seems obvious this is the goal - take away some bandwidth too - call it a day.

And this whole business about DDA nerfs is simply ludicrous. Resist the urge. Simple is better.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#673 - 2015-07-05 22:09:31 UTC
I honestly would rather see a more unique bonus on the tempest or at least an application bonus instead. An application bonus would also match up with the other (3?) attack battleships having bonuses similar.
Zeetchmen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#674 - 2015-07-06 01:15:15 UTC
I can't wait or flying drone boats to be even less fun becuase CCP and the nerfbat are inseprable due to their balance inability
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#675 - 2015-07-06 06:13:00 UTC
Captain Nuf wrote:
Sad

Okay quack nerfers. You win. The -1 mid +1 low change has me selling my Ishtars alone.

I actually like the slot change. It's a good way to take away some of the shield-preference, which is a good thing.
The speed and pgen changes however. ...
Bunyip
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#676 - 2015-07-06 06:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bunyip
Alright, here's my thoughts on the Ishtar:

I love the Ishtar for my PvE, but I will admit that it is a bit OP. The best solution I can think of:

  • Give the Ishtar a 10% bonus to Damage and HP of all drones instead of nerfing one particular type of drone
  • 5% bonus to all drone Tracking and Optimal
  • Increase the bandwidth of Sentries to 30 mb
  • Give Battleships a 150 bandwidth
  • Switch out the +5 km drone control range bonus with a +5% Armor Resist bonus
  • Reduce powergrid regen to maybe 80-90% of what it is now
  • Keep slot layout (5 mid, 5 low)

This would make the Ishtar's bonuses look like this:

Gallente Cruiser per level:
+5% to Drone Tracking and Optimal Range
+7.5% bonus to Drone Max Velocity

Heavy Assault Cruiser per level:
+10% Drone Damage and HP
+5% to Armor Resistances

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in MWD sig radius

This will nerf the Ishtar without hampering many of the other ships. It will force some coding changes, but those are mainly to the Geddon and the Domi. Keep the same stats as the current (pre-nerf) Domi.
Yeng Constantine
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#677 - 2015-07-06 08:03:12 UTC
It would have been better to buff other ships to counter drone boats. The SP investment on drones affects alot.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#678 - 2015-07-06 08:08:57 UTC
Bunyip wrote:
Alright, here's my thoughts on the Ishtar:

I love the Ishtar for my PvE, but I will admit that it is a bit OP. The best solution I can think of:

  • Give the Ishtar a 10% bonus to Damage and HP of all drones instead of nerfing one particular type of drone
  • 5% bonus to all drone Tracking and Optimal
  • Increase the bandwidth of Sentries to 30 mb
  • Give Battleships a 150 bandwidth
  • Switch out the +5 km drone control range bonus with a +5% Armor Resist bonus
  • Reduce powergrid regen to maybe 80-90% of what it is now
  • Keep slot layout (5 mid, 5 low)

This would make the Ishtar's bonuses look like this:

Gallente Cruiser per level:
+5% to Drone Tracking and Optimal Range
+7.5% bonus to Drone Max Velocity

Heavy Assault Cruiser per level:
+10% Drone Damage and HP
+5% to Armor Resistances

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in MWD sig radius

This will nerf the Ishtar without hampering many of the other ships. It will force some coding changes, but those are mainly to the Geddon and the Domi. Keep the same stats as the current (pre-nerf) Domi.



Or they could have just swapped the drone bonuses from the Eos and made the Eos good and the Ishtar more brawler based. This way two ships would have been fixed for the price of one!
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#679 - 2015-07-06 09:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Lili Andedare wrote:
... brainless dev... ALL ships sucks so Ishtar Op? Lets nerf all dronboats coz we are genius dev!111


It's the Ishtar is that OP and broken, all of the other ships are just fine, honey. Smile

Remember to take your pills in time.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#680 - 2015-07-06 09:39:09 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ordala wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.


rly? small? LOL u guys rly know what you do?

At this point you guys have to think about a refund of SP or total redesign of drones not only one nerf after another! Ppl spend lifetime to skill drones and stomp it to the ground.


Titan pilots got nothing when they nerfed them several times. You deserve nothing for training into a fotm and then getting stung.


That's why many Titan pilots left the game, don't kid yourself.


There are more titans today than ever.