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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#541 - 2015-06-26 11:43:15 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason.



THIS IS WHY
Evan Giants
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2015-06-26 11:49:44 UTC
I got better idea.

How about you add gun Bay to every other ships.
Small gun is 5m3, med is 10m3, large is 25m3

Let other ships swap their guns accordingly to situation.

And give every hacs bonus to all gun sizes. Also optimal range bonus. This will allow other hac to get on Ishtar level because they will finally have bs level weapon bonus and versatile.

Or how about remove goddamn sentry bonus on Ishtar. And replace optimal range with drones velocity bonus instead.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#543 - 2015-06-26 12:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two.

The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#544 - 2015-06-26 12:36:10 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two.

The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour.


it made it too flexible, something they are trying too fix

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#545 - 2015-06-26 13:57:22 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two.

The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour.


Agreed, it was the only good Gallente ship that could shield tank and that was what really made the Ishtar a cool, fun and flexible ship to fly. By no means did the 5/5/5 slot layout make the Ishtar OP, It was plain and simple it's ability to use BS caliber weapons without cap or fitting restraints.

And now it appears CCP is taking that uniqueness away from the Ishtar and turning it into another (yawn) armor tank Gallente ship. I'm starting to get the feeling that CCP has no idea what they're doing when it comes to balancing this ship. I believe that it's only a matter of time for this controversial ship that caused more of a dilemma then any other ship in the history of eve , to end up being long forgotten in the realm of Oblivion (courtesy of CCP of course).

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#546 - 2015-06-26 14:07:33 UTC
The shield Ishtar was OP, being able to fit 3~4 DDAs and a DC then have 5 mids for shield tank and prop mod.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#547 - 2015-06-26 14:42:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
balls
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#548 - 2015-06-26 14:49:58 UTC
How broken would be a heavy drone brawler with let's says a web range bonus?

Or a drone resist bonus to somewhat counter smartbombs?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#549 - 2015-06-26 15:15:57 UTC
Gudu FlyingSoul wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module.


^This.

LvL4 Domi/Ishtar runners, Carriers, Gila/Rattle on WH, Worm small PvP's, PvP alliance fleet doctrines, SoE exploration ships ... ¿This is the impact that CCP is looking for? Roll



Probably yes, and it is warranted.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#550 - 2015-06-26 15:21:40 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well).

Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level:
7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level:
2500m bonus to Drone operation range
5%/10% bonus to drone max velocity

Ishtar has very good range and tracking with sentries. Alpha almost as HML BC. Capless, no ammo consuming, good rof, why using other hull than that?



At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together.

The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP.

I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something.

The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#551 - 2015-06-26 15:41:25 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
This works out to a 2.0%/3.8%/5%/5.6% reduction in DPS for 1/2/3/4 DDA2s and 1.6%/3.0%/4.0%/4.5% for 1/2/3/4 faction DDAs or to put it in terms of base dps, 2.5%/5,6%/8.4%/10% and 2%/4.6%/7.0%/8.5% for faction. Very reasonable change, it may even need a second helping in a patch or two.

The Ishtar slot change I'm not so keen on, the flexibility of fitting options afforded by its layout was part of its unique flavour.


it made it too flexible, something they are trying too fix


Shield Ishtar is fine aside from sentries. Can't fit web + point without losing way too much tank so you just get point; it's fast but still not as fast as some brawler cruisers and easy to catch with anything else, and even with 3 mids and 2 rigs for shield tank + DCU, armor Ishtar still has much more EHP.

100 MN AB is not great outside of big fleets either, it's slower than MWD and can't turn ever.

Shield fitting options set the Ishtar apart from the VNI. It will now be exactly the same ship with a bigger drone bay and few more resists.

Monkey with sentries all you want, even DDA's, but allow us to keep the Ishtar's fitting versatility.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#552 - 2015-06-26 16:31:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well).

Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level:
7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level:
2500m bonus to Drone operation range
5%/10% bonus to drone max velocity

Ishtar has very good range and tracking with sentries. Alpha almost as HML BC. Capless, no ammo consuming, good rof, why using other hull than that?



At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together.

The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP.

I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something.

The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion.


You could change the sentry tracking + optimal and make it armor rep amount. It would still be all galente.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#553 - 2015-06-26 17:32:16 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
And people are just ignoreing his job. What would you put in place of the ishtar bonuses? Come on, find me 4 relevant bonus to put on the ishtar that do not make it a split weapon system (That would make peopel whine as well).

Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level:
7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level:
2500m bonus to Drone operation range
5%/10% bonus to drone max velocity

Ishtar has very good range and tracking with sentries. Alpha almost as HML BC. Capless, no ammo consuming, good rof, why using other hull than that?



At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together.

The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP.

I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something.

The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion.


You could change the sentry tracking + optimal and make it armor rep amount. It would still be all galente.


Yes but would be same bonus of deimos. I think ccp tries to avoid that.

What they coudl do now is make a HULL resistance bonus like the hecate....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#554 - 2015-06-26 17:58:04 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together.

The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP.

I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something.

The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion.

Problem with balancing Ishtar is nonequal bonuses with other HACs. All have 2+2 and role bouns, Ishtar has 3+2 and role bonus, Rise don't want to remove sentries from this cruiser but it has great range and tracking with them. So
Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level:
7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
4% to armor resistances (it may be too good with slots switching)

Sentries will loose range and tracking but still be usefull.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#555 - 2015-06-26 18:13:37 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
At least you cared to make a proposal. But look how non elegant it becomes with basically alist of several exceptions glued together.

The problem is that they simply cannot make 4 reasonable and at same time generic bonuses for drones without making the ship OP.

I probably would remove the sentry bonus completely and replace it for a large bonus to ewar drones. They are almsot not used.. so at least might change something.

The only ship that should ever get sentry bonus shoudl be the domi on my opinion.

Problem with balancing Ishtar is nonequal bonuses with other HACs. All have 2+2 and role bouns, Ishtar has 3+2 and role bonus, Rise don't want to remove sentries from this cruiser but it has great range and tracking with them. So
Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level:
7.5% Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light Drone, Medium Drone, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
4% to armor resistances (it may be too good with slots switching)

Sentries will loose range and tracking but still be usefull.

Good concept except Gallente doesn't get armor resistance bonuses for it's racial tanking bonus. Trade that for a 4% hull resistance like Kagura said and we might have a fun ship. It would need to stay 4/4/6 though.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#556 - 2015-06-26 18:38:42 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Good concept except Gallente doesn't get armor resistance bonuses for it's racial tanking bonus. Trade that for a 4% hull resistance like Kagura said and we might have a fun ship. It would need to stay 4/4/6 though.

I meant to wrote hull resistance but was thinking about stratios...(which has +4 res from amarr...)

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Irya Boone
The Scope
#557 - 2015-06-26 19:39:17 UTC
So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp?

you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game

So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too?

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#558 - 2015-06-26 21:52:31 UTC
Irya Boone wrote:
So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp?

you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game

So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too?



Nah, the missile buff was a bait and switch.

Never not nerf caldari.
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
ORPHANS OF EVE
#559 - 2015-06-26 23:01:38 UTC
Quote:
The problem: Ishtars are too good. They are squashing out diversity in several environments because of their excellent damage projection and solid survivability

Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/
Alexis Nightwish
#560 - 2015-06-26 23:07:07 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Irya Boone wrote:
So you are nerfing DDA now and buffing missiles ? So we must all swap to caldari ships for pvp?

you have a problem with understanding your game and how people play the game , I don't know how you read your datas and how you retrieve them from the game , but you really should play a little bit more your own game

So i suppose that after the realease of the hecate you gonna nerf small railgun too?



Nah, the missile buff was a bait and switch.

Never not nerf caldari.

To elaborate on what afk said, it's true missiles are getting application modules, but the rigs that we used to use for application will now be stacking penalized so you'll have to sacrifice one mid and/or low slot just to have the same application you do now.

So are you going to drop tackle, tank (most missile boats are shield, and the Amarr ones have few mids), or DPS?

It's lose-lose-lose, but CCP will call it a win. What?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers