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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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To mare
Advanced Technology
#341 - 2015-06-23 11:41:04 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Drone boats will get huge nerf on this DDA nerf.
Problem is in ishtar, removing med slot - NICE!

the difference in dps wont be that huge.
and most of the ships who use drones where popular even before we had DDA so they will still be popular after this minor drop in dps
but i agree w you the main problem is the ishtar so they should have just nerfed the ship not the mods

Anthar Thebess wrote:

Wy we cannot go different way?
Instead of nerfing DDA , buff gyros/ heat sinks/ etc.

because of power creep
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#342 - 2015-06-23 11:41:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship.
Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus.

Edit: Used a Gnosis as the testing ship, and remember Hammerheads are high damage drones so use the appropriate charges if you want to see the exact numbers.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Valkin Mordirc
#343 - 2015-06-23 11:42:36 UTC
Quote:
And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.



So does this mean we won't get the battlecruiser rebalance till next month? =( =( =(
#DeleteTheWeak
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#344 - 2015-06-23 11:43:14 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship.
Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus.


On paper, not so much in reality.

There is also the matter the drone ship can fit guns. That many do not is not due to fitting compromises so much as the fact they don't even need to.
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#345 - 2015-06-23 11:45:47 UTC
don't see the point of the tempest change if it still gets to the fight 1/2 hour after its over
Blavish
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#346 - 2015-06-23 11:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Blavish
Carriers become more useless.
Augustus Risalo
Vulcans Forge
#347 - 2015-06-23 12:01:43 UTC
The DDA change is pretty insignificant, it's not like they cut the % in half...

Nice to see the Tempest get some love!
Lidia Caderu
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#348 - 2015-06-23 12:04:26 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship.
Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus.

Edit: Used a Gnosis as the testing ship, and remember Hammerheads are high damage drones so use the appropriate charges if you want to see the exact numbers.

Use guns. Ishat may use 4 guns and a bonus for them. It will have even higher DPS than currently. So its possible to give 2 bonuses for drones and 2 for guns.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#349 - 2015-06-23 12:08:22 UTC
Lidia Caderu wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
For those who cry the Ishtar should just be a medium drone ship, 5 Hammerhead IIs on a 50% bonused ship will only out DPS high damage heavy missiles on a 5% bonused ship.
Every other weapon system using 5 units with a 5% damage bonus will out damage 5 Hammerhead IIs which get a 50% damage bonus.

Edit: Used a Gnosis as the testing ship, and remember Hammerheads are high damage drones so use the appropriate charges if you want to see the exact numbers.

Use guns. Ishat may use 4 guns and a bonus for them. It will have even higher DPS than currently. So its possible to give 2 bonuses for drones and 2 for guns.


Ishtar hasn't had bonused guns for the last two years there chief Big smile
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#350 - 2015-06-23 12:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
I eagerly await Fozzie's Super "rebalance" along with these further damage reductions so I can finally "kite" with a 40 billion isk squad boosting paperweight that can't jump anywhere, can't damge anything, but will have several 35 USD "official skins" yet no defined purpose so I never log it in yet pay 15 USD a month for a virtual space penile extension....

Just kill off Supers and Titans so a majority of us can move on to another game. Because kiting frigates and not being able to warp to someone are such fing brilliant innovations conjured up by the brilliant Manfred Sidious. Guess I should have bought a Moracha instead of an Avatar, two combats toons and a Hel.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#351 - 2015-06-23 12:29:37 UTC
Augustus Risalo wrote:
The DDA change is pretty insignificant, it's not like they cut the % in half...


They do, actually. Dominix as PvE power horse got nerfed beacuse of PvP ship. Small nerf for ships with small numbers of DDA, but I have 5 of those fitted on my Dominix... IT IS A 10 % DPS NERF FOR ME !!! GRRR !!!

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Augustus Risalo
Vulcans Forge
#352 - 2015-06-23 12:48:20 UTC
erg cz wrote:
Augustus Risalo wrote:
The DDA change is pretty insignificant, it's not like they cut the % in half...


They do, actually. Dominix as PvE power horse got nerfed beacuse of PvP ship. Small nerf for ships with small numbers of DDA, but I have 5 of those fitted on my Dominix... IT IS A 10 % DPS NERF FOR ME !!! GRRR !!!


So if you were doing 1000 DPS before, now it's 900 DPS, I don't think that is going to stop you from melting faces in missions.
Augustus Risalo
Vulcans Forge
#353 - 2015-06-23 12:50:41 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
not being able to warp to someone



You can still warp to fleet members...?
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#354 - 2015-06-23 12:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The problem is not just the Ishtar. The claim that CCP are breaking other drone boats with these changes is a bit odd. How do you break that which is already broken?

http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png

The solution I have in mind is a bit radical.
Remove drone bonuses from hulls and delete drone buffing modules. Rebalance current drone bonused hulls to compensate. Drones change from a primary weapon system to supplementary assistance providing additional DPS or EWAR.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#355 - 2015-06-23 12:58:25 UTC
MAH ISK TICKS!!!!!
Anthar Thebess
#356 - 2015-06-23 12:59:08 UTC
To mare wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Drone boats will get huge nerf on this DDA nerf.
Problem is in ishtar, removing med slot - NICE!

the difference in dps wont be that huge.


It is not about dps change but about removing med slot , so shield ishar will be very impacted.
Armor version just got buffed , but this is good trade off - as the shield one was very nasty , mostly because of the mobility of shield doctrine ( including logistics and all support ships)




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Lidia Caderu
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#357 - 2015-06-23 13:00:36 UTC
afkalt wrote:

Ishtar hasn't had bonused guns for the last two years there chief Big smile


So what? I dont any reasons of not giving it to Ishtar.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#358 - 2015-06-23 13:05:18 UTC
Oh sorry, I didnt read that like a suggestion as much as the state of affairs today. It used to have that setup you see Smile
Numen Anomalie
sonyc live
Not Purple Shoot It.
#359 - 2015-06-23 13:10:13 UTC
As a drone enthousiast, i am obviously not happy with this.

That said. I see WHY you guys THINk it needs a nerf, but what you guys are doing is not fair.

Listing all the PRO's and saying It's OP is not really how it works, now is it.

There are MANY downsides to using drones (not ishtars, drones, which is what you are nerfing here. NOT ishtars, drones):

1. Sentry drones and non static drones are different.
2. there are TONS of downsides: There is travel time. The ability to kite them. they can (rather easily) be shot down. One has to pick them up, or leave them behind. they can be smartbombed, stealth bombed, or simply killed fast with a (few) frigates. Totally ruining your dps.

There are more tactical disadvantages to using drones vs missiles or arty and guns, but those left besides, i think every weapon system should be able to dish out the same amount of dps in the end, when applied optimally to its optimal target.

The thing that i read a lot up here is: they (drones, people actually mean sentry's, that are already nerfed) deal a ton of DPS at 60km + range.

Yes, in order to do so, however, one needs to take at least 2 or 3 DDA's, slap the rest of the mids OR the lows with drone computers, use a sensor booster for higher ranges and sacrifice high slots that use up TONS of CPU for the range mods.

This leave a ship with BARELY a tank, LOW amount of utility mods and a sig radius of a station because of the shields, or they are slow with barely any medium utility mods in the mid slots.

It is simply a sniper boat that does dps at that point.

granted, it does that well, but there are tons of other ships that do the same, with having more tank, speed, or combat utility slots.

I think the DRONE nerf here is out of place, the ISHTAR nerf: well, just because everybody uses it, does not mean you truely understand WHY.

EASE OF USE is why i think ishtars are so popular. MOST people have their drone skills up high ANYWAY and thats why you see their game-wide damage out put to be so nice. (most people i know have 1 weapon system + drones on good skills). That means, the problem is in general popularity of drone boats, making the ishtar (cruisers are fast and high damage) the logical choice for many fleets. Plus assigning drones gets better alpha, agreed again. Not really that their damage is too high, it is just ease of use that is the problem again.

Nerfing these ships will not solve the problem. The result will be: people will keep using the ship untill you nerf it too much and then it gets COMPLETELY dropped.

Thats how eve works anyway. Some things are just more popular and sheep follow the sheppard.
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#360 - 2015-06-23 13:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ivona fly
Roy Henry wrote:
Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place?


+1



So to the bring the ishtar inline you have already nerfed the rattlesnake TWICE for exmaple and that ship is not in your list as being oppressive? (Nerfed sentries, Nerfed DDAs)


IMO balancing a ship by nerfing it's weapon system is not good
the same happened to condor it got indirectly ROFL stomped because the crow was considered OP, and now it does like 40dps and cant break passive tanked frigates. I heard the drake killed heavy missiles somehow too, but I dont think i was playing then to see the tears / details Big smile

Also If you are going to further nerf the "drone damage amplifier 1" can we get a meta module that does say 18% damage like a meta 4 heat sink/gyrostab/magstab.


I like that you doing something about the ishtar though and balancing must be hard but i think DDAs are balanced at the moment.


Edit the post above mine has good points as well :)