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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

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Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#581 - 2015-04-30 15:17:01 UTC
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.



Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Mario Putzo
#582 - 2015-04-30 15:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.


Because it is easier to whine about what others have, instead of lobbying for what you have. In order to do so guys like Baltec1 would actually need to come up with ideas, instead of reading the GSF Wiki and coming to the conclusion there is nothing he can do. (some do, such as the folks who posted suggestions for improving NS production and mining both of which turned into some very nice changes for the NS Industry folks)
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#583 - 2015-04-30 15:25:04 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Not looking for an isk making guide, im asking for this source that shows BNI and others make their ISK outside of NS. You do have a source for that right? Otherwise, folks might think you are talking out your ass.


The fact that null sov is mostly empty and unused.


Which is 100% an issue with how NS currently works, its numerous barriers of entry, and the fact up until recently anyone trying to enter into NS (outside of renting) would be met with a Blob of ****. Case in point, BL. takes QCAB CFC responds by hellcamping an empty Venal station for 2 weeks. Super engaging stuff. Why live there, when you can live in HS and day trip to LS or NS to PVP.

NS is empty because Coalition gameplay has made it a super **** experience, and greatly limits the infusion of new players.

Granted that mold has been broken some in recent years, Rental Empires, Phoebe changes, more and more people now entering into NS than were previously.

But they are idiots right and don't count?


Dont worry, with the impending death of Provi, the last vestiges of accessible Null will finally be stamped out, beyond day tripping of course.

Once this is complete, I hope that CCP will open up HS to be invaded properly.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#584 - 2015-04-30 15:27:02 UTC
well buffing nullsec would just mean you would have to also buff lowsec etc and it would be much more work to buff the whole of nullsec so it balances better with 1 activity in highsec which is overpaid, simply increasing risk to incursions to warrant the isk made would be sufficient enough (such as marios idea in f&i)

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#585 - 2015-04-30 16:21:33 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?


Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack.

If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov.


You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit?

Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game?


We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#586 - 2015-04-30 16:23:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?


Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack.

If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov.


You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit?

Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game?


We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there.


Will you keep burning it every few weeks to be sure to "teach" idiots how little that space is worth?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#587 - 2015-04-30 16:30:54 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.





Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#588 - 2015-04-30 16:36:50 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?


Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack.

If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov.


You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit?

Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game?


We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there.


Will you keep burning it every few weeks to be sure to "teach" idiots how little that space is worth?


We have put it to the torch 8 times now. Do you honestly think we wont in the future? It will be easier than ever before if people are not living in their space. So again, yes it will matter where your line members are making their isk.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#589 - 2015-04-30 16:37:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.





Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.


They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#590 - 2015-04-30 16:41:56 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.





Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.


They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...


Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#591 - 2015-04-30 16:45:09 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.





Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.


They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...


Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea


But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Mario Putzo
#592 - 2015-04-30 16:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?


Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack.

If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov.


You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit?

Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game?


We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there.


I thought it was because you were ~twisting the knife~ and ~stepping on your enemies throat~, now its just ~because it was there~. Hard to keep up with that CFC, sorry, Imperium, spin cycle.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#593 - 2015-04-30 16:48:47 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.





Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.


They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...


Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea


But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's.


They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything.
Mario Putzo
#594 - 2015-04-30 16:52:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything.


Which means there is plenty of time, and a place for nullbears to offer their suggestion on how to improve their income streams. I would wager however you will see NPC Agents for "hire" in Sov NS space. It is really one of the only ways to make non-trusec more lucrative, without reworking the entire sec based structure in NS.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#595 - 2015-04-30 16:55:37 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.

That won't do anything. Making nullsec pay out more won't make people grind for isk in highsec less. Similarly nerfing payouts in highsec won't reduce the draw of highsec pve content unless the nerfs are incredibly severe.

It's not about the specific balance of payouts, it's about the danger involved. In highsec there is virtually zero threat to incursion runners from other players, the only danger comes from NPCs that despite being fairly powerful by NPC standards are dumb, predictable and only present in specific places. In low or nullsec any random passers-by can drop on your fleet and shoot you as you're forming up.

You can't overcome that gigantic rift in levels of danger just by adjusting the money.

You have to do something to adjust the level of safety and carebears absolutely lose their **** when you say that. It doesn't help that most suggestions of that nature are pretty dumb ideas about removing concord in sites.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#596 - 2015-04-30 16:56:28 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.





Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.


They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...


Where is this proof? So far the only evidence we have is that they make twice as much isk per pilot as activities in more hostile space.
Mario Putzo
#597 - 2015-04-30 17:18:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.





Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.


They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...


Where is this proof? So far the only evidence we have is that they make twice as much isk per pilot as activities in more hostile space.


I suggest you go post in this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=414192&find=unread where you can offer suggestions and enter into discussion to make these ideas CCP proposed (in the OP) a reality, and scaled in a way that you think would be most fair and balanced for the NS groups that own/operate them.
Anuri Suaraj
The Cylar Foundation
#598 - 2015-04-30 19:02:57 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Not looking for an isk making guide, im asking for this source that shows BNI and others make their ISK outside of NS. You do have a source for that right? Otherwise, folks might think you are talking out your ass.


The fact that null sov is mostly empty and unused.


Which is 100% an issue with how NS currently works, its numerous barriers of entry, and the fact up until recently anyone trying to enter into NS (outside of renting) would be met with a Blob of ****. Case in point, BL. takes QCAB CFC responds by hellcamping an empty Venal station for 2 weeks. Super engaging stuff. Why live there, when you can live in HS and day trip to LS or NS to PVP.

NS is empty because Coalition gameplay has made it a super **** experience, and greatly limits the infusion of new players.

Granted that mold has been broken some in recent years, Rental Empires, Phoebe changes, more and more people now entering into NS than were previously.

But they are idiots right and don't count?


I actually kind of have to agree with this.

One of the reasons why I prefer w-space to null because it is safer to access. Wormholes, even static ones, change position which makes camping or blobing difficult.

In null however, there are systems that are just bubbled to sh*t and utterly messed up with drag blobs and gangs of Legions and Lokis camping gates.

I think CCP needs to introduce more wormholes into null for three-dimensional access rather than solely through those ever predictable gates.

Either that or make gates more like catapults instead of passageways, meaning you get launched into some random position in the system and not just a few kilometers from the system gate.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#599 - 2015-04-30 20:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.





Inflation is bad. Nullsec income does need redone, but just a net buff to what's already there is not appropriate.

[edit: Oh, and because income is relative, adjusting the one massively overpowered thing is a better solution by far than buffing all the others. The nail that stands up should get pounded down.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#600 - 2015-04-30 21:00:39 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.

That won't do anything. Making nullsec pay out more won't make people grind for isk in highsec less. Similarly nerfing payouts in highsec won't reduce the draw of highsec pve content unless the nerfs are incredibly severe.

It's not about the specific balance of payouts, it's about the danger involved. In highsec there is virtually zero threat to incursion runners from other players, the only danger comes from NPCs that despite being fairly powerful by NPC standards are dumb, predictable and only present in specific places. In low or nullsec any random passers-by can drop on your fleet and shoot you as you're forming up.

You can't overcome that gigantic rift in levels of danger just by adjusting the money.

You have to do something to adjust the level of safety and carebears absolutely lose their **** when you say that. It doesn't help that most suggestions of that nature are pretty dumb ideas about removing concord in sites.


Maybe to some people, yes, but not to everyone. I'd be happy regularly losing ships and creating content (i.e. the actual lifeblood of the game) while earning income if the rewards were structured such that the net average income per hour after ship loss was greater than the Hi Sec equivalent. Granted, it would help if the gap between optimum fits for PvE and PvP were not so disparate, but that is unlikely to be solved any time soon. Now, arguably this may already be true for FW or WH space, but that still doesn't actually promote local activity in sov and npc null, which is what needs to be addressed here if the new sov is to actually attract and maintain a vigilant population.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?