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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

First post First post First post
Author
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#1821 - 2015-07-05 16:56:10 UTC
I would like to see CCP add elements of Minecraft to the game, considering how it's meant to be a "sandbox", like proper player-built structures, or fully-customisable ships (not just re-skins, but moving and adding wings, changing engine appearance etc). More sand please!
Black Pedro
Mine.
#1822 - 2015-07-05 17:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Andar Purvanen wrote:
PvP is fine but it seems that "balanced" means different things to you than it does to me.

Balance is about writing rules that promote PvP in a equal fashion and then applying those rules fairly and equitably. I'm not seeing it.

Why not? Everyone starts out the same in New Eden with a handful of skill points, 5000 ISK and a rookie ship. What happens then is up to you: CCP has created a vast universe populated with other players you can collaborate or compete with for whatever goals you set for yourself and choose whatever path you want to get to those goals. You are not guaranteed success of course, but that is part of the draw of the dark and dystopian Eve universe.

Sure, some ships are more effective than others at various tasks, but everyone is free to fly whatever ship they want (within the limits of ISK and SP of course) and with who they like so I see nothing that is systematically unfair - the rules are applied fairly and equitably. But if you are looking for some sort of "balance" mechanism that controls who or how many can engage you, or artificially control what ships they can fly, you are playing the wrong game.

Eve is an open world PvP sandbox where player freedom has been maximized by the game designers. When it comes down to it, all we have is our wits and our friends to rely on (and sometimes in New Eden, not even our friends). Seems balanced to me.
Phoenix Slayton
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#1823 - 2015-07-05 19:00:40 UTC
I'm Staying.

Eve Online will always have drops, or rises in player subs. Hopefully the changes will be welcomed ones, and will breath more life into 0.0. If it fails miserably, than I expect CCP will fix it. This game has changed a lot in the years it's been around, and for the most part, the changes have been for the better. The two things that really set Eve apart from other games, is its community, and the fact that CCP does listen to the player base. So I have faith that those two entities can work together to continue to better the game that I love.

0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1824 - 2015-07-05 19:03:29 UTC
Phoenix Slayton wrote:

.....If it fails miserably, than I expect CCP will fix it. This game has changed a lot in the years it's been around, and for the most part, the changes have been for the better. The two things that really set Eve apart from other games, is its community, and the fact that CCP does listen to the player base. So I have faith that those two entities can work together to continue to better the game that I love.



I found 4 errors.

How many others found? Big smile
Melissa Redoran
#1825 - 2015-07-05 19:14:30 UTC
Phoenix Slayton wrote:

...
The two things that really set Eve apart from other games, is its community
...


If I compare what can be seen from the eve community in this board vs. what can bee seen from other gaming communities (you can also count f2p into this) on their boards ... the difference closes down. More and more.
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1826 - 2015-07-05 19:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: 0bama Barack Hussein
Not to mention I think this is first time in 6 years I have heard somebody to say that CCP actually listens to it´s community.

And believe me, if they force this new sov system down the tube in few days, it will most likely stay for a long time, maybe even years (if past is any measure in EvE), unless something very catastrophical like total dive in subscription / online numbers happen right after it´s released.

Also i doubt very much CCP´s ability to "work together with playerbase" (in developement of EvE), because
1) What players opinions one should listen and what disregard, and especially why. Because that one dev happened to feel it were a good idea, eventhough other devs did not so much...?

2) Only minority of players read these forums, even smaller fraction writes here, well know fact from all games around...

So i guess guestion would come to:

Who the hell we few farts think to really represent? "Average"?

Those 90% NOT at forums might just love new sov system...
Marsha Mallow
#1827 - 2015-07-05 20:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Melissa Redoran wrote:
If I compare what can be seen from the eve community in this board vs. what can bee seen from other gaming communities (you can also count f2p into this) on their boards ... the difference closes down. More and more.

These forums aren't representative of the broader community. Player run sites have a different tone which is better or worse depending on personal preference. There's an understanding on player social sites between participants that they're playing an MMO with other people regardless of gameplay style. A lot of the posters on Eve-o are outraged that they aren't playing a single player game and feel their sub entitles them to use the 'official' boards to bleat about it endlessly, push for gameplay changes and inform the rest of us how deranged we are. I'm not sure how long it will take some of them to realise the minute they took the step of talking to other people on a forum they started actively PvPing.
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
Not to mention I think this is first time in 6 years I have heard somebody to say that CCP actually listens to it´s community.

They listen to people who present coherent ideas and arguments which improve the game, sometimes. I'm pretty sure they ignore shitposting NPC alts (no offence, that's not directed at you in particular) and general gibbering. It's not an unreasonable stance. I've seen plenty of evidence they listen to the playerbase but to be fair if they respond by guffawing 95% of the time you can't really blame them. Most of us do reading 'player feedback' because a lot of it is hilariously daft and the people who are the most outraged are lunatics who can barely string a sentence together. If you want to have an impact on which parts of community based feedback are used, start playing the game properly within the community.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#1828 - 2015-07-05 20:20:20 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:

They listen to people who present coherent ideas and arguments which improve the game,


I know. It is going to be freakin awesome when I see my "No cynos within 10K of a station" idea get implemented in September.
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1829 - 2015-07-05 21:13:03 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:

They listen to people who present coherent ideas and arguments which improve the game,


I know. It is going to be freakin awesome when I see my "No cynos within 10K of a station" idea get implemented in September.



That brings to my mind, long time ago I presented in Factional Warfare militia-chat (well known place for CCP to hang around for ideas Blink ) this idea of high sec turning something like FW with timers to capture and so on...
And moving borders between "empires"...



But then i also said back then something like:

"Heck, turn whole null also into new FW, bring it to life!"


No idea if CCP were listening, or somebody passed it forward to them, or if i have anything to do with it...
But still, it were meant to be a joke, and now it might already be comedy as it actually happened... CoolLolBig smile
Marsha Mallow
#1830 - 2015-07-05 21:22:59 UTC
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
No idea if CCP were listening CoolLolBig smile

It's hard to tell when stuff you mention appears ingame because it's either really obvious or someone else might have mentioned it first. Might be nice if small stuff which is implemented is credited to the people who suggested it. Also, some free stuff.

Btw, your name appears to have been unblocked on the forum Blink

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#1831 - 2015-07-05 21:27:02 UTC
Last year they had a predictions for 2015 thread. Most of my response related to how CCP does not create anything new, they just tweak the current content. That is why I look at EvE as a zen sandbox and CCP as the monks who continually move the sand around with rakes.

EvE needs to be more like a desert than a sandbox.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#1832 - 2015-07-05 23:09:57 UTC
1600+ ships destroyed in one FW system in Gal/Cal space in the last 24 hours. EVE isn't dead, and if you are worried about it being dead you know where to come for pew pew :)
Hilti Enaka
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1833 - 2015-07-06 00:20:42 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Andar Purvanen wrote:
PvP is fine but it seems that "balanced" means different things to you than it does to me.

Balance is about writing rules that promote PvP in a equal fashion and then applying those rules fairly and equitably. I'm not seeing it.

Why not? Everyone starts out the same in New Eden with a handful of skill points, 5000 ISK and a rookie ship. What happens then is up to you: CCP has created a vast universe populated with other players you can collaborate or compete with for whatever goals you set for yourself and choose whatever path you want to get to those goals. You are not guaranteed success of course, but that is part of the draw of the dark and dystopian Eve universe.

Sure, some ships are more effective than others at various tasks, but everyone is free to fly whatever ship they want (within the limits of ISK and SP of course) and with who they like so I see nothing that is systematically unfair - the rules are applied fairly and equitably. But if you are looking for some sort of "balance" mechanism that controls who or how many can engage you, or artificially control what ships they can fly, you are playing the wrong game.

Eve is an open world PvP sandbox where player freedom has been maximized by the game designers. When it comes down to it, all we have is our wits and our friends to rely on (and sometimes in New Eden, not even our friends). Seems balanced to me.


Let me start by saying that "balance" is what drives stagnation. Eve should never be about "being fair". It irritates me to the back of my teeth that things get nerfed just because there has been enough tears on the forum. The game it self isn't that hard to workout. It's built on rules and computer calculations and if you haven't taken the time to work out when to engage or not then don't come to the forums claiming something is overpowered. I'd much rather see the developers recognize a trend and think out the box for counter game plays.

Balance creates a dull predictable game play. Eve has already become dull and predictable without the balancing project. I mean we are now seeing alliances using carriers, super carriers and titans as roaming vehicles - makes the term PVP, or small gang warfare pretty laughable.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#1834 - 2015-07-06 03:33:07 UTC
Really?

I'd think the imperative to make use of what's over powered would lead to stagnant game play. Then it turns into who abuses what's broken the most.

Balanced game play is what leads to diversity in strategy. One or few things being "OP" (opposite of balanced, whatever choice word you'd rather see than OP) is what leads to dull, non-innovative game play.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1835 - 2015-07-06 05:59:18 UTC
Hilti Enaka wrote:
Balance creates a dull predictable game play. Eve has already become dull and predictable without the balancing project. I mean we are now seeing alliances using carriers, super carriers and titans as roaming vehicles - makes the term PVP, or small gang warfare pretty laughable.

Maybe we understand "balance" differently, but IMO it's lack of balance that makes the game dull. In my terms, lack of balance means lack of viable, competitive tools (ships, tactics, fitting schemes...) in a meta, which means lack of diversity. Which is what makes that dullness kick in sooner rather than later...
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1836 - 2015-07-06 06:54:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Melissa Redoran wrote:
If I compare what can be seen from the eve community in this board vs. what can bee seen from other gaming communities (you can also count f2p into this) on their boards ... the difference closes down. More and more.

These forums aren't representative of the broader community. Player run sites have a different tone which is better or worse depending on personal preference. There's an understanding on player social sites between participants that they're playing an MMO with other people regardless of gameplay style. A lot of the posters on Eve-o are outraged that they aren't playing a single player game and feel their sub entitles them to use the 'official' boards to bleat about it endlessly, push for gameplay changes and inform the rest of us how deranged we are. I'm not sure how long it will take some of them to realise the minute they took the step of talking to other people on a forum they started actively PvPing.
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
Not to mention I think this is first time in 6 years I have heard somebody to say that CCP actually listens to it´s community.

They listen to people who present coherent ideas and arguments which improve the game, sometimes. I'm pretty sure they ignore shitposting NPC alts (no offence, that's not directed at you in particular) and general gibbering. It's not an unreasonable stance. I've seen plenty of evidence they listen to the playerbase but to be fair if they respond by guffawing 95% of the time you can't really blame them. Most of us do reading 'player feedback' because a lot of it is hilariously daft and the people who are the most outraged are lunatics who can barely string a sentence together. If you want to have an impact on which parts of community based feedback are used, start playing the game properly within the community.


I remember Malcanis' guideline on how to make a proposal with any chance to be listened by CCP.

It left me wih a strong feeling of "sample bias" -when you ask people with a notorious bias and all your stats are wrong because they only represent the little minority you sampled.

Anyone going through "Malcanis way" will be different from 99.99% of the players in the game.

In a way, if you're comitted and skilled enough to make a successful proposal... you'll be a member of club of one and CCP will be taking a serious chance that the other 300,000 subscribers beg to differ from you, if they even bothered to think about your proposal.

A singing fish is a notorious thing to listen, but most fishes don't sing and likely can't be properly represented by a sample of one singing fish. And funnily enough, some studies show that uninformed shoals take better decissions on average than skilled individuals...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1837 - 2015-07-06 11:39:55 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:

They listen to people who present coherent ideas and arguments which improve the game,


I know. It is going to be freakin awesome when I see my "No cynos within 10K of a station" idea get implemented in September.

That would be another nice broken addition to game play, that would suit a minority of players. So yes going by other recent changes, it is likely to happen.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1838 - 2015-07-06 13:17:17 UTC
You know ****'s gettingg real when the "politically correct" minority of people can't accept that they are and always have been a minority, but a few people in charge caved in to the whining and bullshit arguments, forcing everyone around to suffer for the weaknesses of the few, hateful people.

Reallife really spills into the game too mich sometimes.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1839 - 2015-07-06 16:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Nope, no hope in sight:

PvP alone can not help EvE.

CCP has to entice online players to pay money for the game. Those gamers expect entertainment. What not needed is smart as-sing and wise tipps like ALODs of the month. It should be legal fun to do a fail fit.

EvE players in avarage are smarter than...
This is an old myth.
This forum proves otherwise to me.
Ppl talking of meta, when they do not even understand what that means, circling in little loops about "everything is PvP" and "seal clubbing"(i mean shooting beginners) is an important emerging gameplay. It is not possible to talk about change. The most ridiculous changes are squealed over: the look of aura, the missile icons, the DCU.
SERIOUS???

To survive, CCP and EvE needs to adapt. EvE needs to invite casual players and risk averse fun park audience.
A horrorscenario some poor weenies try to paint on the wall. It is not horror. It is needed to lure ppl into the game and if they like it, they might start to pvp. OOOh but horror, areas where someone could not try for the cheap easy kill. When its up to the wannabe toughies to put effort into their kills.

So whats the bad thing, when some poor incompetent griefers can not shot at beginners anymore?
WHAT?

Simple:
Those guys are afraid, they do not have (easy) victims anymore. This forum is full of squealing and moping of those ppl.

And no, there is no hate. Thats disgust for stooped shortsighted ppl.

Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
...minority...


Nope thats so wrong as it can get.
Most online gamers like to fight for the good side. In WoW are fare more alliance players than horde. Lots of ppl like to be the white knights. Same goes for EvE, but those are the ppl that built the blue donut, not some lowly hisec dwellers.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."

Hilti Enaka
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1840 - 2015-07-06 17:49:23 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Hilti Enaka wrote:
Balance creates a dull predictable game play. Eve has already become dull and predictable without the balancing project. I mean we are now seeing alliances using carriers, super carriers and titans as roaming vehicles - makes the term PVP, or small gang warfare pretty laughable.

Maybe we understand "balance" differently, but IMO it's lack of balance that makes the game dull. In my terms, lack of balance means lack of viable, competitive tools (ships, tactics, fitting schemes...) in a meta, which means lack of diversity. Which is what makes that dullness kick in sooner rather than later...


I take your point that if everything is balanced it creates diversity however, the default will always be to "bring more". Diversity is a Rooks and Kings being able to use ships to it's maximum to pull of a GF, its about being able to be the under dog and get the win. Balance resets all of this to none and then it becomes 90% of the time who brings more wins. Eventually the bottleneck changes location, Ishtars are it this time round what's next? CCP could literally leave everything the way it is now and a new "overpowered boat" will emerge with cries of "it's wrecking the game". I've urged CCP many times to stop balancing the game and to stop nerfing things just because, I want to see the developers see trends and take the initiative in giving us the chance to play out alternative counters. Unfortunately they don't seem to be able to do anything but bring the nerf hammer down and instead punish people who spent a considerable amount of time (and may be money) training to specialise is the very thing that is deemed overpowered.

I wonder how many people left the game because of executing a very long training queue to then have it snapped off you from beneath their feet?