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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1801 - 2015-07-03 23:47:26 UTC
Gyromite wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Doomsday proselytizing will only turn people off from playing.

Regardless of whether or not the game is "shrinking" in terms of numbers, talking about it is only going to affect those who are still here to see it.

Threads like these don't slow down number decreases, only speeds it up.

"Oh, looks like 90 pages of conversation have taken place about how EvE is dying. Better buy more subscription time!"
- no one ever


This, a million times this.

All of the attention and work people have put into this thread could have been spent elsewhere recruiting new players, teaching them, keeping them in game.

Why would you recruit new players into a game with such a narrow focus on content?
Why would you promote a game that deliberately introduces broken, unfinished things onto a live server?
Eve has always been a niche game and CCP is doing a fantastic job of making it even more niche than ever before.

I used to boast about Eve and encourage others to play. I couldn't do that now - I have a conscience

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1802 - 2015-07-04 03:28:46 UTC
Crystal Jade
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1803 - 2015-07-04 07:54:00 UTC
read the first 2 pages and the last 2.
i am not a forum person, i prefer to spend what time i have playing eve then reading forums. but i feel so sad the game i have put so much time and effort into for the past 9 years is finally coming to an end, that i feel i need to say something. And I have no idea where to start.


Thing I Loved about Eve was the ability to build and expand. As-long as you were careful, smart and patient. Your whit (or corps/alliance) against the rest of eve.


Hi-sec,
Should i point out that when the forced wardec's in empire started, For me it destroyed the community feeling. growing large industrial or pve corps in empire became a thing of the past. which also didn't help with keeping new players since there is no longer a place for the community based pve person in high-sec as-far as corporations/alliance are concerned. Ganking also became very easy and cheap.

0.0
Loved the freedom it offered, the promise of stability as-long as you where smart and powerful, (or just smart) and all the benefits that come with it. The ability to “own” a part of eve and protect it. And I believe it should take a lot and a lot and a lot of effort to gain sov. Otherwise whats the point? Fighting? Sure fighting is good but I can only play 4-6hrs a day and I do not want to fight all the time. I also want to build, explore, mine.
Big Ships! Love my big ships. And yes I have all the toys... they have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. Now they sit in low-sec on unsubed accounts.

Goto say that this game is not the game I fell in love with. I have adapted through all the negative changes and rejoiced in the positive ones.
But I feel the path ccp are now taking with 0.0 will be the end for me and many others.

Hope I am wrong.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1804 - 2015-07-04 08:08:26 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Gyromite wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Doomsday proselytizing will only turn people off from playing.

Regardless of whether or not the game is "shrinking" in terms of numbers, talking about it is only going to affect those who are still here to see it.

Threads like these don't slow down number decreases, only speeds it up.

"Oh, looks like 90 pages of conversation have taken place about how EvE is dying. Better buy more subscription time!"
- no one ever


This, a million times this.

All of the attention and work people have put into this thread could have been spent elsewhere recruiting new players, teaching them, keeping them in game.

Why would you recruit new players into a game with such a narrow focus on content?
Why would you promote a game that deliberately introduces broken, unfinished things onto a live server?
Eve has always been a niche game and CCP is doing a fantastic job of making it even more niche than ever before.

I used to boast about Eve and encourage others to play. I couldn't do that now - I have a conscience

So you don't want to help the game, you just want to tell everyone what you think is wrong? Lol

Wwwweeeelllllll look what we have here! Lol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1805 - 2015-07-04 08:13:43 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Gyromite wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Doomsday proselytizing will only turn people off from playing.

Regardless of whether or not the game is "shrinking" in terms of numbers, talking about it is only going to affect those who are still here to see it.

Threads like these don't slow down number decreases, only speeds it up.

"Oh, looks like 90 pages of conversation have taken place about how EvE is dying. Better buy more subscription time!"
- no one ever


This, a million times this.

All of the attention and work people have put into this thread could have been spent elsewhere recruiting new players, teaching them, keeping them in game.

Why would you recruit new players into a game with such a narrow focus on content?
Why would you promote a game that deliberately introduces broken, unfinished things onto a live server?
Eve has always been a niche game and CCP is doing a fantastic job of making it even more niche than ever before.

I used to boast about Eve and encourage others to play. I couldn't do that now - I have a conscience


i got a why question,,, why are you still here?
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1806 - 2015-07-04 08:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Yeah! Ocker, You don't care about the game at all. You just rant all day and pretend to know what's good or bad, while actually not helping or even caring to! You don't WANT to help so get lost?

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1807 - 2015-07-04 11:28:24 UTC
GankYou wrote:
Ten days. Smile


I am kinda as anxious waiting as you are, but partly perhaps for different reasons Lol

If it works out, and people like it (EvE numbers obviously after that also go up), I reconsider joining back to null after a while. Fine. Smile

Though if it is a bomb I´m gonna wait those tears/rage posts in forums/chats more than ever (as I now have also ED as my other "space game" with EvE, and SC incoming, not too worried there would never again be another space game for me) Big smile
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1808 - 2015-07-04 11:43:15 UTC
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Ten days. Smile


I am kinda as anxious waiting as you are, but partly perhaps for different reasons Lol

If it works out, and people like it (EvE numbers obviously after that also go up), I reconsider joining back to null after a while. Fine. Smile

Though if it is a bomb I´m gonna wait those tears/rage posts in forums/chats more than ever (as I now have also ED as my other "space game" with EvE, and SC incoming, not too worried there would never again be another space game for me) Big smile

I'm thinking about getting GTA V to ruin the days of all the kids playing strongman during summer. Lol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1809 - 2015-07-04 12:06:47 UTC
0bama Barack Hussein wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Ten days. Smile


I am kinda as anxious waiting as you are, but partly perhaps for different reasons Lol


Smile

Quote:
Though if it is a bomb I´m gonna wait those tears/rage posts in forums/chats more than ever (as I now have also ED as my other "space game" with EvE, and SC incoming, not too worried there would never again be another space game for me) Big smile


Smile

Quote:
If it works out, and people like it (EvE numbers obviously after that also go up), I reconsider joining back to null after a while. Fine. Smile


And I'm going to smile at this thread. Smile

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Shadow Raptor
Doomheim
#1810 - 2015-07-04 12:07:01 UTC
Quote:
On 28 August 2014, CCP shut down their San Francisco studio to refocus their efforts on EVE Online. At the same time of the announcement, the CFO, Joe Gallo and CMO, David Reid quit. As of 2015, none of CCP's original founders are still with the company.
None?

Could this be true?
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1811 - 2015-07-04 12:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
And Hilmar? So what? All you bitter people are hilarious! LolLol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1812 - 2015-07-04 12:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1813 - 2015-07-04 14:12:21 UTC
Here is what I thought about the future of EVE, just two years ago (June 29th 2013):

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3277874#post3277874

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

High end prognosis: EVE becomes a full fledged virtual universe, from space to planet surface, where the player can immerse in a unique universe and find his niche, be it as the humblest shop owner or as a supreme leader of the fate of thousands of space warriors. All gamestyles are acknowledged, from solo players to herd minds, and from devote nolifers to people who need to be able to stop playing to attend real life without being punished for it.


Huh... not happening.

Quote:
A likely prognosis: the dificulties to find a off-house EP lead the game astray in two possible ways: a "player" EP whose cognitive bias pushes the game development according to his niche interests and alienates minorities; or a "non player" EP who is unable to grasp the game before start making decissions and leads it into a catastrophic alienation of minorites, some of them too powerful to be ignored. Albeit doesn't misfires, DUST 514 fails to retain a sizeable population and the interwining with EVE doesn't becomes a great deal to a demogrpahic who are not EVE players. Meanwhile, the 5-year development plan of adding more space to EVE becomes just an iteration of the existing unsustainable "conquer and defend" mechanics, whereas the deepening of unused space (aka: hisec) through new gameplay mechanics is fatally dismissed because of development constraints. In 5 years, EVE is facing a low end prognosis and CCP try to cheer up with a "jesus feature" for 15th anniversary, which fizzles due to lack of development resources. WoD is already starting to kick in as it attracts a new demographic for CCP products and EVE is quietly but fatally removed from top corporate focus as WoD takes the crown and CCP start working on a fourth, unrelated IP.


Wow. Some things right, some things SO wrong... Lol

Quote:

Low end prognosis: EVE fades away as the endogamy of existing gameplay being expanded to retain the same niche players already enjoying the game kills any chance to atract new kinds of players and draw fresh blood. The continued development drives long time players away at a constant pace as each of them gets the wrong side of a change and is dealt the final blow. Beyond a certain point, the game becomes demographically unsustainable and dies.


I stand by this. But I want to correct the last line to be:

"Beyond a certain point, the game population plummets and freezes around a small but solid core of diehard subscribers. EVE Online becomes a relic MMO like Ultima Online or Everquest, operated and maintained by either a very diminished CCP or a new garage company started with that purpose after the closure of CCP"

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1814 - 2015-07-04 21:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Yeah! Ocker, You don't care about the game at all. You just rant all day and pretend to know what's good or bad, while actually not helping or even caring to! You don't WANT to help so get lost?

Maybe you should read a little more of the thread than just the 1st and last 2 pages.

If I didn't care about the game I would have been gone long ago.
I am still here because I believe as long as the servers are up and players voice their opinions (good or bad) there is hope the game I have loved for 8 years will again become a game I can boast about being a part of.

-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - --
Those who just sit back and criticize others are the ones who really should just leave or a least not waste peoples time posting with out actually contributing to the thread.

All the knockers in this thread telling me to just give up - 90 pages, hundreds of posters all with different ideas, thoughts and opinions and the only ones who haven't contributed something are the ones who just say quit.
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - --
Angelica, I'm not part of a flock of sheep, prepared to just sit back and watch Eve die because Devs can't see past their own personal agendas. I have invested a lot of time, effort and money into this game - I, as a subscriber have every right to voice my opinion and as my Sig states, if you don't like it - I don't care - Just don't take it upon yourself to judge me or this thread when you haven't taken the time to read it.

NB; I'm not "pretending" anything - I discuss game play that i have been involved in for years and watched as Devs slowly let it erode to what we have now.
I have watched Devs take what was a great game and turn it into a niche little theme part based on their individual wants - Not what is best for Eve.
Unless of course you consider content designed for a small niche group within the player base "good for Eve", in which case, I will be the 1st one to put my hand up and say i was wrong.

I don't see me having to say I was wrong but you can all have an "I told you so" ready if I do.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1815 - 2015-07-04 22:15:41 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
sigh...

if solutions for mmos could be easily found, we had a lot more succesful ones.
i consider sc as alpha not a game, but elite dangerous?

ed is grinding on the eve playerbase.
add a real playerbase market, sov and little more and more ppl would switch.
it would be easier for ed to adopt good eve stuff, than for eve to adapt good ed stuff.

eve has to change.

this leads to:
how many eve players do you need to change a light bulb?
eve players: CHANGE????
NOOOOO!!!

major changes are required, not this puny risk aversebla bla, carebear or dark universe tales.
you have take a step back and consider how ppl play online games.
playing in groups have to be optional, not required.
action, needs to be had fast.
roaming for hours?
working ppl have money, but no time!
losing is ok, but this pathetic smartassing and schadenfreude stuff is total bullshit.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Andar Purvanen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1816 - 2015-07-05 01:08:01 UTC
"73% of EVE characters stay in high security space. 62% of EVE subscribers barely PvP. 40% of all new accounts just "level up their Ravens". Probably that's why PvE content in EVE Online is sub-par and CCP is head over heels for PvP..."

PvP the devs may want but they really won't get it by modelling existence as if it were some sort of super gankfest for cheap shot bullies. Life isn't like that and when the game turns out to be, increasingly, a matter of ganking over most other activities most players will go elsewhere.

PvP is all well and good but too much of what is passed off as PvP just isn't.

Death does not deter.  I will mine until you surrender.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#1817 - 2015-07-05 08:34:48 UTC
Andar Purvanen wrote:
PvP the devs may want but they really won't get it by modelling existence as if it were some sort of super gankfest for cheap shot bullies. Life isn't like that and when the game turns out to be, increasingly, a matter of ganking over most other activities most players will go elsewhere.

PvP is all well and good but too much of what is passed off as PvP just isn't.

Of course it is PvP. When two or more players come into conflcit there is a contest of wills and usually only one group of them wins. Sure, sometime the outcome of that immediate encounter is not in doubt such as when the two sides are vastly imbalanced numerically say, but that outcome of that PvP encounter is the culmination of decisions made by both sides in the past as well as events outside the direct control of the players in the greater universe. This is type of game CCP set out to build - it is "full-time PvP in a sandbox environment" as CCP characterizes it in the New Pilot FAQ.

I agree that for a game to be successful it has to be fun and new entrants should actually have a chance of becoming competitive, but Eve has always been an PvP sandbox where artificial balancing is avoided. Battles have always varied widely in balance and many wars over the years have been won by actions that took place complete outside of a spaceship. From the moment you enter New Eden you are "full-time PvPing" as you are in competition with your fellow capsuleers and your actions can affect the greater universe.

That is the game CCP set out to built. An ambitious, single universe social experiment with cut-throat competition allowed nearly everywhere and on multiple levels simultaneously. It's all PvP down to the core. That also means it is not the game for everyone.

If you want a "balanced" PvP game from CCP in the Eve universe you can wait until Valkyrie is released.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1818 - 2015-07-05 09:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
La Rynx wrote:
sigh...

if solutions for mmos could be easily found, we had a lot more succesful ones.
i consider sc as alpha not a game, but elite dangerous?

ed is grinding on the eve playerbase.
add a real playerbase market, sov and little more and more ppl would switch.
it would be easier for ed to adopt good eve stuff, than for eve to adapt good ed stuff.

eve has to change.

this leads to:
how many eve players do you need to change a light bulb?
eve players: CHANGE????
NOOOOO!!!

major changes are required, not this puny risk aversebla bla, carebear or dark universe tales.
you have take a step back and consider how ppl play online games.
playing in groups have to be optional, not required.
action, needs to be had fast.
roaming for hours?
working ppl have money, but no time!
losing is ok, but this pathetic smartassing and schadenfreude stuff is total bullshit.


Well, ED haves something EVE hasn't had for years: potential to expand. Potentially it can add player hangars to store stuff and open a real market; can add (wants to add) avatars and gameplay for them; can add (wants to add) planets and surfaces; it can... it can... IT CAN. There is potential in it. And if it had a subscription model I would be considering moving over there -but so far still haven't even installed it, although I backed it and got my RL name as one fo the random NPC names ingame. Guess that I am waitign for a) avatars an b) ED doen't rolling over its belly and become a "F2P". Or, what I would like, grow some galls and become a subscription game with a regular income that allows it to grow for as long as subscribers like what they see.

That, for ED. But EVE's future?

Been there, done that is the state of the game.The Hallelujah plan consists of giving us new space to conquer and hold -something never seen before but for Sovereignty (1, 2 and 3), and wormholes. Three makes the magic? Only if you're willing to slaughter a holy cow in the process: numbers and organization must provide no advantage so lone unorganized newbies (and veteran lone unorganized PvErs) stand a chance versus veteran PvP players. Don't hold your breath for it...

EVE is old. We don't know how old MMOs reinvent themselves and become fresh again because that has never happened -the very little instances just grew even older and shrinked into relic status. That, those who managed to last enough to grow old.

Can EVE be reinvented? I think it can. Change is out of the table, but improvement can root in some of the barren lands still available for grabs. Things never done yet, which can be done. If CCP wants. If CCP buys enough time to do them. And if CCP gets it right for once in their life.

Most of EVE players PvE and quit. Improve the game so they PvE and stay. Or keep living by the PvP HTFU mantra until either CCP or EVE or both shrink down to irrelevance and leave the stage open for new stars.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1819 - 2015-07-05 12:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Been playing for over a decade, on and off, with different levels of intensity. To me the darkest era was 2009-2013 but my fun levels have been increasing since that time. I'm fine with EVE not having as many players as it did as it's not somehow a measure of how good or enjoyable a game is, especially not as there's many reasons for the drop (war on botting etc).

There's enough to whine about in regards to EVE and it's not always going in a direction I'd want it to but on the whole we're doing fine, I enjoy my solo and small group pvp, I enjoy the little PVE I do. If hilariously huge clown coalitions are whining because it's not going their way and are thus "threatening" to quit, all I can say is "lol". If the large influx of players we had over the years suddenly come to realise that this isn't a full blown PVE game then all I can say is "lol".


Get rid of those two groups and suddenly we're back to a pvp centric game where people actually fight.
Andar Purvanen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1820 - 2015-07-05 16:23:50 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
I agree that for a game to be successful it has to be fun and new entrants should actually have a chance of becoming competitive, but Eve has always been an PvP sandbox where artificial balancing is avoided. Battles have always varied widely in balance and many wars over the years have been won by actions that took place complete outside of a spaceship. From the moment you enter New Eden you are "full-time PvPing" as you are in competition with your fellow capsuleers and your actions can affect the greater universe.

That is the game CCP set out to built. An ambitious, single universe social experiment with cut-throat competition allowed nearly everywhere and on multiple levels simultaneously. It's all PvP down to the core. That also means it is not the game for everyone.

If you want a "balanced" PvP game from CCP in the Eve universe you can wait until Valkyrie is released.


PvP is fine but it seems that "balanced" means different things to you than it does to me.

Balance is about writing rules that promote PvP in a equal fashion and then applying those rules fairly and equitably. I'm not seeing it.

Death does not deter.  I will mine until you surrender.