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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1441 - 2015-06-18 17:25:27 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

You have absolutely no idea how everything in this game is interconnected.


I have a better idea than most, oddly enough. In the meantime, you still need to learn the difference between various sigs, so you don't claim that there are twenty sanctums in one system, and then post a picture proving yourself wrong.

I utterly despise this game's PvE, and even I know better.


Quote:

You need to go play the SC arena game and just dogfight all day.


Hilariously, it's not even much fun. I think they made the same mistake that Elite Dangerous did, making the game functionally unplayable without a HOTAS system(or something similar). Too much hardware demand makes a game inaccessible.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1442 - 2015-06-18 17:26:41 UTC
Moth Eisig wrote:

So go play World of Tanks.


I do, and so does enough of EVE's playerbase that it should worry CCP.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Freya Sertan
Doomheim
#1443 - 2015-06-18 17:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Freya Sertan
Moth Eisig wrote:
Freya Sertan wrote:
Moth Eisig wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

There needs to be new meaningful PVE content in this game.


Out of everything wrong with Eve, it's pretty telling that you think this is the most important. The one thing CCP has told us that is actively detrimental to positive retention, not to mention faux "content" that is trivialized within days of being released(as all PvE content is), and apparently we need to waste dev time on more of it.


If you want a game without PvE go play World of Tanks.


No one wants a game without PvE you dolt. What people want is a PvP sandbox game to remain PvP oriented. When devs have to create PvE content it removes cycles from actually improving what makes the game good.

PvP.

We, as players, create that content. Guess what? We use PvE to do it. Miners, autopiloters, missioners... they're all PvP content doing their PvE. We all need PvE in the game but we don't need any further development spent on it. It would be pointless to have a 6 month dev cycle for new incursion like PvE only to have them mastered and trivliazed in a week.

Pointless waste of effort and money. Keep the game strong where it needs to be and people will continue to play. PvE is not where it needs to be strong.

So the game needs PvE, but we should actively work toward keeping it so bad that no one wants to do it and that even people who like PvE in games get driven away by how boring it is?


Way to inject words that were not typed.

Actively working toward making PvE bad != wasting cycles on it any longer. If the PvE in Eve is so boring that it drives you away, good-*******-bye. We don't want or need that type of player in Eve.

Create your own goddamned content. That is the point of this game. Quit relying on the devs to do it.

New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.

Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#1444 - 2015-06-18 17:30:00 UTC
Freya Sertan wrote:
Moth Eisig wrote:
Freya Sertan wrote:
Moth Eisig wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Out of everything wrong with Eve, it's pretty telling that you think this is the most important. The one thing CCP has told us that is actively detrimental to positive retention, not to mention faux "content" that is trivialized within days of being released(as all PvE content is), and apparently we need to waste dev time on more of it.


If you want a game without PvE go play World of Tanks.


No one wants a game without PvE you dolt. What people want is a PvP sandbox game to remain PvP oriented. When devs have to create PvE content it removes cycles from actually improving what makes the game good.

PvP.

We, as players, create that content. Guess what? We use PvE to do it. Miners, autopiloters, missioners... they're all PvP content doing their PvE. We all need PvE in the game but we don't need any further development spent on it. It would be pointless to have a 6 month dev cycle for new incursion like PvE only to have them mastered and trivliazed in a week.

Pointless waste of effort and money. Keep the game strong where it needs to be and people will continue to play. PvE is not where it needs to be strong.

So the game needs PvE, but we should actively work toward keeping it so bad that no one wants to do it and that even people who like PvE in games get driven away by how boring it is?


Way to inject words that were not typed.

Actively working toward making PvE bad != wasting cycles on it any longer.


It's already bad for the most part. Actively trying to keep people from changing it is actively trying to make it bad.
Freya Sertan
Doomheim
#1445 - 2015-06-18 17:32:47 UTC
Moth Eisig wrote:
words words words



Okay, you're just dense. Actively making it bad would be intentionally wasting precious dev time on PvE when anything else needs balancing.

The PvE in Eve is bad, yes. It has no need to be good. That's what you need to understand. If you're here for the PvE content, you are indeed playing Eve Online wrong.

New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.

Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#1446 - 2015-06-18 17:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Moth Eisig
Freya Sertan wrote:
Moth Eisig wrote:
words words words



Okay, you're just dense. Actively making it bad would be intentionally wasting precious dev time on PvE when anything else needs balancing.

The PvE in Eve is bad, yes. It has no need to be good. That's what you need to understand. If you're here for the PvE content, you are indeed playing Eve Online wrong.

M8, you just said a page back that we use PvE to create PvP content, don't you think there would be more of that if the PvE were actually enjoyable?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1447 - 2015-06-18 17:37:46 UTC
Moth Eisig wrote:

It's already bad for the most part. Actively trying to keep people from changing it is actively trying to make it bad.


Chewing rocks will never be interesting or compelling gameplay.

EVE's PvE is bad because, like all PvE, it is trivial content barring interference from other players. The only thing that keeps PvE content appearing interesting in other games is that they devote the majority of their staff to rotating through different flavors of it nigh constantly.

Like two months into every WoW expansion, where their playerbase pours out tears on the forums about how they've finished it all already, and Blizz needs to hurry up and make more, blah blah blah. Like freaking locusts, consume and move on, because PvE content has so little replay value unless heavily procedurally generated. (something that EVE cannot do)

And if a game studio ten times the size of CCP can't keep up with the demand, CCP damn sure can't.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1448 - 2015-06-18 17:40:02 UTC
Freya Sertan wrote:
Moth Eisig wrote:
words words words



Okay, you're just dense. Actively making it bad would be intentionally wasting precious dev time on PvE when anything else needs balancing.

The PvE in Eve is bad, yes. It has no need to be good. That's what you need to understand. If you're here for the PvE content, you are indeed playing Eve Online wrong.



I hate to break it to you but this game is not based on PVP, it is based on the collection of assets and the denial of assets to others.

PVP is a means of preventing others from PVE and securing your own forms of PVE.

Null sec is the perfect example of this. Fighting over moons, sov, belt rights. WH's have evictions to secure sleeper sites. Everything in this game is about getting more assets. We pvp to take others assets away or prevent them from taking ours.

The game was based on the idea that PVP is open, and eventual, but this is not a PVP game at its core. It is a balance.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1449 - 2015-06-18 17:41:19 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Moth Eisig wrote:

It's already bad for the most part. Actively trying to keep people from changing it is actively trying to make it bad.


Chewing rocks will never be interesting or compelling gameplay.

EVE's PvE is bad because, like all PvE, it is trivial content barring interference from other players. The only thing that keeps PvE content appearing interesting in other games is that they devote the majority of their staff to rotating through different flavors of it nigh constantly.

Like two months into every WoW expansion, where their playerbase pours out tears on the forums about how they've finished it all already, and Blizz needs to hurry up and make more, blah blah blah. Like freaking locusts, consume and move on, because PvE content has so little replay value unless heavily procedurally generated. (something that EVE cannot do)

And if a game studio ten times the size of CCP can't keep up with the demand, CCP damn sure can't.



And WoW is the most successful mmorpg of all time. They cater to the PVE market. They have tens of millions of people paying month by month for that content.

Not saying Eve should ever be like WoW... but just saying your premise that PVE doesn't keep subs is ********.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1450 - 2015-06-18 17:42:57 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I hate to break it to you but this game is not based on PVP


CCP disagrees.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1451 - 2015-06-18 17:45:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I hate to break it to you but this game is not based on PVP


CCP disagrees.



CCP knows the marketing well. But everything in this game revolves around healthy PVE.

Territory to fight over, Mining to get materials to build ships, Ratting to get bling mods to sell to missioners who use it for isk to buy more ships and bling.

PVE drives the game, PVP makes it possible to PVE or makes the PVE more important/necessary.

Balance

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Freya Sertan
Doomheim
#1452 - 2015-06-18 17:47:28 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I hate to break it to you but this game is not based on PVP


CCP disagrees.



CCP knows the marketing well. But everything in this game revolves around healthy PVE.

Territory to fight over, Mining to get materials to build ships, Ratting to get bling mods to sell to missioners who use it for isk to buy more ships and bling.

PVE drives the game, PVP makes it possible to PVE or makes the PVE more important/necessary.

Balance


No, you're wrong.

New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.

Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1453 - 2015-06-18 17:47:47 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

And WoW is the most successful mmorpg of all time. They cater to the PVE market. They have tens of millions of people paying month by month for that content.


First of all, they're the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of MMOs that tried to follow suit have died, most notably SWG and UO(two of the best in the history of the genre), both of which died shortly after releasing expansions that curtailled PvP and player freedom. Secondly, they do not have tens of millions of people. They've been falling off the wagon for a while now, and they're down to 7 million.


Quote:

Not saying Eve should ever be like WoW... but just saying your premise that PVE doesn't keep subs is ********.


It doesn't. Their playerbase has been getting bored and falling off for a while now, despite the ludicrous resources Blizzard has been pouring into it. It survives purely on force of momentum right now, and once that runs out, it will implode. That's why Blizz is diversifying as fast as they can, releasing one new game after another.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1454 - 2015-06-18 17:50:33 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

CCP knows the marketing well.


They actually don't, because for the average player, the game does not live up to the marketing.

People come here because of the gratuitous space battles, and they show up to find Farmville in Space, because that's what the PvE-centric highsec based NPE leads them into. Hell, mining is arguably worse than Farmville, at least Farmville makes you talk to other people now and then.

It's no wonder they quit in such huge numbers.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Freya Sertan
Doomheim
#1455 - 2015-06-18 17:52:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

CCP knows the marketing well.


They actually don't, because for the average player, the game does not live up to the marketing.

People come here because of the gratuitous space battles, and they show up to find Farmville in Space, because that's what the PvE-centric highsec based NPE leads them into. Hell, mining is arguably worse than Farmville, at least Farmville makes you talk to other people now and then.

It's no wonder they quit in such huge numbers.


Yep.

PvP keeps people playing. PvE drives them away.

New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.

Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1456 - 2015-06-18 17:55:03 UTC
Freya Sertan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

CCP knows the marketing well.


They actually don't, because for the average player, the game does not live up to the marketing.

People come here because of the gratuitous space battles, and they show up to find Farmville in Space, because that's what the PvE-centric highsec based NPE leads them into. Hell, mining is arguably worse than Farmville, at least Farmville makes you talk to other people now and then.

It's no wonder they quit in such huge numbers.


Yep.

PvP keeps people playing. PvE drives them away.


"Look upon me. Dare not look away."

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1457 - 2015-06-18 18:02:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Freya Sertan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

CCP knows the marketing well.


They actually don't, because for the average player, the game does not live up to the marketing.

People come here because of the gratuitous space battles, and they show up to find Farmville in Space, because that's what the PvE-centric highsec based NPE leads them into. Hell, mining is arguably worse than Farmville, at least Farmville makes you talk to other people now and then.

It's no wonder they quit in such huge numbers.


Yep.

PvP keeps people playing. PvE drives them away.


"Look upon me. Dare not look away."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbHqFgn4SOw&t=16m20s

Both wrong. 50% of new players leave, 80% that stay or 40% total do missions or play solo.

only 10% of new players will play in groups, and not all of them pvp.

So, by CCPs own stats, you are wrong.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1458 - 2015-06-18 18:04:52 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
*Snipped out the spin*


Hush up and go learn about sigs already. I'll even be a standup guy and link the wiki page for you.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cosmic_Signatures

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1459 - 2015-06-18 18:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
*Snipped out the spin*


Hush up and go learn about sigs already. I'll even be a standup guy and link the wiki page for you.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cosmic_Signatures



How about Sanctums are not sigs... they are Anoms.

Who needs to learn?

I know all about the 3 ever respawning Sanctums in every high trusec 0.0 upgraded system.

I also know that naturals come to those systems too.

Naturals + respawning infinity = lots of isk.

Whats the problem with your comprehension skills?

But why are we talking about this again? Because you were just schooled on new player activity and spanked for your anti-PVE mentality? Right

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1460 - 2015-06-18 18:14:50 UTC
Aww, he didn't fall for it.

I was hoping to make him waste an hour on that awful wiki. Ah well.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.