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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

First post First post First post
Author
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1301 - 2015-06-14 00:11:22 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Bottom line: High sec is where the fun is. It needs to be buffed.


Nada, nope, nunca. Nope.

See my signature. Blink

Nerfing it has not increased null population, but decreased overall EVE Online population.....



Yes, but High Sec isn't anymore or less fun than anywhere else. It is what High Sec allows people to create for themselves that makes it so attractive. Fun is a product of your interaction with the game. The reason people are leaving this game is that CCP continues to nerf interaction of specific play styles, instead of making others better.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1302 - 2015-06-14 00:16:44 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


A total mis understanding of people like him (which is common, and why CODE exists), and why people like me don't fall prey to them. Kaarous knows I'm a PVE player and he's never had a problem with me, because I don't try to meta game him and his ilk away by whining to CCP.

I dislike the exact same people he does, because those same people claim to speak for people like me (the king of "False consensus" is posting in this very thread). They do not, CCP has give us all the tools we need to not fall victim to 'bad people' and the constant 'carebear enabling' you and people like you do does nothing but result in a game that is nerfed for real PVE players. Because it's not red Xs Chevrons that provide the content, it's the satisfaction of killing those Chevrons while avoiding the bad guys.

TL;DR, Kaarous doesn't hate you because you are free, he hates you because you are whinny and weak and unable to cope with simple things in a video game where you can't really die.



No, he should hate me because while he has to use a cowards way to kill something shiney, I find my prey, war dec them, let them know I am coming and end up the victor proving I am better than them.


Which is the other reason he porbably hates you type, because you claim superiority because you play a video game differently, and think it means something about who you are.

It doesn't

Quote:

Red Chevrons are just a form of funding the real fun of this game. But I would never be as presumptuous as you to tell others that they have to play my way.


That you hold that belief about PVE proves that you are judgmental as you claim others are. For some of us, the "fun" is finding new ways to defeat those red chevrons (while thwarting the efforts of the 'bad guys'). Whether you would tell someone else how to play is immaterial.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1303 - 2015-06-14 00:23:01 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Aza Ebanu wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Bottom line: High sec is where the fun is. It needs to be buffed.


Nada, nope, nunca. Nope.

See my signature. Blink

Nerfing it has not increased null population, but decreased overall EVE Online population.....


I wouldn't call it a direct nerf to Hisec, the Lowend mineral volume being traded, as well as market orders have went up several times in Nullsecks, though. Smile

There was 630 mil of Mexallon for sale at 44 ISK p/u a week after 28th of April in Deklein. Smile

KING SPODUMAIN, Ohhh \O/


I wouldn't attribute the overall decrease in activity to any gameplay patches, rather, as had been said before, it was the ISBotter ban, and now partly due to anticipation of Sov 5.0 deployment.

EVE will build itself anew in the coming months.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Except that CCP has already pushed people in the direction of A for nearly a decade now. So instead of trying anything different and giving some incentive to B for once, you are suggesting that they double down on A, a known failure.

And the rest of us think you're nuts.


Pushed people into High Sec? Pushed people into PVE? How, by giving us a couple thousand 0.0 systems with no local? Or by adding two low-sec regions? By overhauling Sov and super capitals twice?


Level 4 missions & Incursions. Smile

Completely out of whack compared to Hisec mining, PI & perhaps even exploration, for example.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1304 - 2015-06-14 00:25:48 UTC
GankYou wrote:




Level 4 missions & Incursions. Smile

Completely out of whack compared to Hisec mining, for example.

Ahem... LVL 4's are a form of low sec buffPirate
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1305 - 2015-06-14 00:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Aza Ebanu wrote:
GankYou wrote:




Level 4 missions & Incursions. Smile

Completely out of whack compared to Hisec mining, for example.

Ahem... LVL 4's are a form of low sec buffPirate


Last time I checked they were still in Hisec? I remember doing them in 2008 with close to 75-90 mil ISK per hour income, but possibly higher.

The LP exchange rate has been devalued since then, though - courtesy of the FW brethren. P
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1306 - 2015-06-14 00:45:32 UTC
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
GankYou wrote:




Level 4 missions & Incursions. Smile

Completely out of whack compared to Hisec mining, for example.

Ahem... LVL 4's are a form of low sec buffPirate


Last time I checked they were still in Hisec? I remember doing them in 2008 with close to 75-90 mil ISK per hour income, but possibly higher.

The LP exchange rate has been devalued since then, though - courtesy of the FW brethren. P



Level4's and Incursions pay significantly more in Low and 0.0
Level 5's are only in low.

They aren't as common to run because people like Kaarous got their concord free playground and ran everyone off.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#1307 - 2015-06-14 00:45:56 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

My job is to sit quietly at my desk in the event that something breaks. The Army really doesn't care what else I do, it's the technical knowledge that I'm being paid for.

Taxpayer money too.



He isn't actually in the army. He is probably a civilian contractor working for the army. Which would also explain the massive inferiority complex.

He is probably also the third son in his family, or the least a middle child.

None of that matters, just plays into the whole idea that this game isn't "harsh" enough because some want it to be just as miserable for others as their real life is for them.


If you are in any case wondering if anybody here on these forums takes your comments serious. They don't any more.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1308 - 2015-06-14 00:48:52 UTC
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

My job is to sit quietly at my desk in the event that something breaks. The Army really doesn't care what else I do, it's the technical knowledge that I'm being paid for.

Taxpayer money too.



He isn't actually in the army. He is probably a civilian contractor working for the army. Which would also explain the massive inferiority complex.

He is probably also the third son in his family, or the least a middle child.

None of that matters, just plays into the whole idea that this game isn't "harsh" enough because some want it to be just as miserable for others as their real life is for them.


If you are in any case wondering if anybody here on these forums takes your comments serious. They don't any more.



Pretending there was ever anything worth being serious about is more of a problem no?

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1309 - 2015-06-14 00:48:56 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
GankYou wrote:




Level 4 missions & Incursions. Smile

Completely out of whack compared to Hisec mining, for example.

Ahem... LVL 4's are a form of low sec buffPirate


Last time I checked they were still in Hisec? I remember doing them in 2008 with close to 75-90 mil ISK per hour income, but possibly higher.

The LP exchange rate has been devalued since then, though - courtesy of the FW brethren. P



Level4's and Incursions pay significantly more in Low and 0.0
Level 5's are only in low.

They aren't as common to run because people like Kaarous got their concord free playground and ran everyone off.


Precisely my point. Smile

Risk-reward.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1310 - 2015-06-14 00:52:16 UTC
GankYou wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
GankYou wrote:




Level 4 missions & Incursions. Smile

Completely out of whack compared to Hisec mining, for example.

Ahem... LVL 4's are a form of low sec buffPirate


Last time I checked they were still in Hisec? I remember doing them in 2008 with close to 75-90 mil ISK per hour income, but possibly higher.

The LP exchange rate has been devalued since then, though - courtesy of the FW brethren. P



Level4's and Incursions pay significantly more in Low and 0.0
Level 5's are only in low.

They aren't as common to run because people like Kaarous got their concord free playground and ran everyone off.


Precisely my point. Smile

Risk-reward.



Right, so either we reduce the risk... or CCP caters to the high end SP again.

So we are finally getting to the root of the problem. Making content for low end newer players at the expense of the high end SP die hards, regardless if we are talking about PVP or PVE or High or Low.

CCP can't raise the rewards without making it harder for new players to get into, and they can't reduce the risk without Kaarous and Jenn getting their panties in a bunch. So they really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#1311 - 2015-06-14 00:52:28 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

My job is to sit quietly at my desk in the event that something breaks. The Army really doesn't care what else I do, it's the technical knowledge that I'm being paid for.

Taxpayer money too.



He isn't actually in the army. He is probably a civilian contractor working for the army. Which would also explain the massive inferiority complex.

He is probably also the third son in his family, or the least a middle child.

None of that matters, just plays into the whole idea that this game isn't "harsh" enough because some want it to be just as miserable for others as their real life is for them.


If you are in any case wondering if anybody here on these forums takes your comments serious. They don't any more.



Pretending there was ever anything worth being serious about is more of a problem no?


I am specifically mentioning your comments.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1312 - 2015-06-14 00:55:16 UTC
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:


I am specifically mentioning your comments.



In am specifically mocking you because this is GD... and you aren't nearly important enough to tell me what others take seriously or not.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#1313 - 2015-06-14 00:58:25 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
GankYou wrote:




Level 4 missions & Incursions. Smile

Completely out of whack compared to Hisec mining, for example.

Ahem... LVL 4's are a form of low sec buffPirate


Last time I checked they were still in Hisec? I remember doing them in 2008 with close to 75-90 mil ISK per hour income, but possibly higher.

The LP exchange rate has been devalued since then, though - courtesy of the FW brethren. P



Level4's and Incursions pay significantly more in Low and 0.0
Level 5's are only in low.

They aren't as common to run because people like Kaarous got their concord free playground and ran everyone off.



and shall we discuss this.. how come CCP has avoided to address the issue of Level 5 missions, I mean new players see it and I noticed its NEVER brought up on the forums.. its almost as if it should be on the radar to address like they did with TEAMS..lvl 5's should be open to everyone and not just limited to one section of space.. put them into null sec or high sec even.. since incursions and FW also happen in high sec.. seems like CCP purposely avoids talking about lvl 5 missions..instead we get
more burner mission stuff.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1314 - 2015-06-14 00:59:11 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I came across this quite interesting quote from CCP Falcon and with all the recent changes was wondering if he feels the new NulSec meets his stated opinion or does it need some amending.

Eve is now further away from what he describes than ever before.
The amount of "rules" are overwhelming the sandbox element.

Sov will soon mean players from specific time zones playing together to the exclusion of interacting with those from around the world. Unless you choose to join one of the Mega alliance's and become "just a number in fleet".
Individuals no longer play eve, it is being redesigned to force players to become a part of something bigger than themselves or remain a minority with limited options. (no sandbox there)

The 'realms' CCP Falcon mentions are well established, the "saviors" are the Empire builders.
The fact Eve has 3 or 4 player owned empires coexisting beside Empire (highsec) is accepted by CCP but CCP can't claim to have a sandbox game when so much content has such limited opportunity.

The whole concept of "harsh, vicious, relentless and cold, is being replaced with, a 4 hour per day commitment of relentless grinding with Entosis links. That's just to protect your sov, you'll need to dedicate another 4 hours per day if you want to attack someone else's. Unless, again, you join a mega alliance where your just a number (and a relatively safe one at that)
- - - - - - - - -
New player experience - 3 sons of friends recently started playing (within the last 30 days). None told me they were giving Eve a try but decided after a couple of days, they had to or just give up. Their words - What the hell do I do now, most of this tutorial stuff just makes no sense. Without input from experienced players (not the trolls in rookie chat) all 3 would have quit within the 1st week.
CCP Falcon wrote:
Okay, so what follows is entirely my personal opinion.

It's not a case of not "catering to the tearfilled entitled", it's a case of us staying true to the core of what EVE was built on.

Some of the people complaining in this thread have valid points about the fact that they don't feel safe. Simple fact of the matter is, that you're not suppose to feel safe in New Eden.

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you're going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who've had the exact same experience, EVE assaults you from the second you begin to play after you create a character, spitting you out into a universe that under the surface, is so complex that it's enough to make your head explode.

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

True, we're working hard to lower the bar of entry so that more players can enjoy EVE and can get into the game. Our NPE (New Player Experience) is challenging, and we're trying to improve it to better prepare rookies for what lies out there, but when you start to play eve, you'll always start out as the little fish in the big pond.

The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top.

EVE is a playing experience like no other, where every action or reaction resonates through a single universe and is felt by players from all corners of the word. There are no shards here, no mirror universes, no instances and very few rules. If you stumble across something valuable, then chances are someone else already knows where you are, or is working their way toward you and you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered.

EVE will test you from the outset, from the very second you undock and glimpse the stars, and will take pleasure from sorting those who can survive from those who'd rather curl up and perish.

EVE will let you fight until you collapse, then let you struggle to your feet, exhausted from the effort. Then when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel it'll kick you flat on your ass in the mud again and ask you why you deserve to be standing. It'll test you against every other individual playing at some point or another, and it'll ask for answers.

Give it an answer and maybe it'll let you up again, long enough to gather your thoughts. After a few more steps you're on the ground again and it's asking more questions.

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Corporation, Alliances and coalitions of tens of thousands have risen and fallen on these basic principles, and every one of those thousands of people has their own unique story to tell about how it affected them and what they experienced.

That's the beauty of EVE. Action and reaction. Emergence.

Welcome to the most frightening virtual playground you'll ever experience.


CCP Falcon, I would be really interested to hear whether your perspective of the new and improved "Eve by numbers" has changed your "opinion" as quoted above.

i really like the limited opportunity part. If I was told I would had to join a null sec alliance to play around in null back in 2005, I would have never stayed as long.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#1315 - 2015-06-14 01:03:21 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:


I am specifically mentioning your comments.



In am specifically mocking you because this is GD... and you aren't nearly important enough to tell me what others take seriously or not.


And of course you are?
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1316 - 2015-06-14 01:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Ahem... LVL 4's are a form of low sec buffPirate


Last time I checked they were still in Hisec? I remember doing them in 2008 with close to 75-90 mil ISK per hour income, but possibly higher.

The LP exchange rate has been devalued since then, though - courtesy of the FW brethren. P



Level4's and Incursions pay significantly more in Low and 0.0
Level 5's are only in low.

They aren't as common to run because people like Kaarous got their concord free playground and ran everyone off.


Precisely my point. Smile

Risk-reward.



Right, so either we reduce the risk... or CCP caters to the high end SP again.

So we are finally getting to the root of the problem. Making content for low end newer players at the expense of the high end SP die hards, regardless if we are talking about PVP or PVE or High or Low.

CCP can't raise the rewards without making it harder for new players to get into, and they can't reduce the risk without Kaarous and Jenn getting their panties in a bunch. So they really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.


I was implying cutting the rewards in Hisec due to absent risk. Almost absent. Blink

However, if CCP thinks it's balanced in an economical sense with current bounties & payouts from both incursions and Level 4s, meaning ISK faucets in general, then it's balanced.

It would be curious how reasonably far the incomes can be reduced in Hisec and increased in Null to compensate, but then again, they make a shitton of ISK out there™ already.

In fact, Hisec needs high ISK faucets, because they import pretty much all the moon minerals and all of the WH resources, along with Highsend minerals like Megacyte, Morphite, Nocxium and Zydrine.

If not a direct faucet, then a resource like LP and compressed lowend ores, along with salvage fits well - it's all about dem wealth transfers and balance thereof. Blink
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1317 - 2015-06-14 01:12:25 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
GankYou wrote:




Level 4 missions & Incursions. Smile

Completely out of whack compared to Hisec mining, for example.

Ahem... LVL 4's are a form of low sec buffPirate


Last time I checked they were still in Hisec? I remember doing them in 2008 with close to 75-90 mil ISK per hour income, but possibly higher.

The LP exchange rate has been devalued since then, though - courtesy of the FW brethren. P



Level4's and Incursions pay significantly more in Low and 0.0
Level 5's are only in low.

They aren't as common to run because people like Kaarous got their concord free playground and ran everyone off.



and shall we discuss this.. how come CCP has avoided to address the issue of Level 5 missions, I mean new players see it and I noticed its NEVER brought up on the forums.. its almost as if it should be on the radar to address like they did with TEAMS..lvl 5's should be open to everyone and not just limited to one section of space.. put them into null sec or high sec even.. since incursions and FW also happen in high sec.. seems like CCP purposely avoids talking about lvl 5 missions..instead we get
more burner mission stuff.



Level 5's were an epic failure on CCPs part. people exploited the old code and got sent into high sec to run them for ridiculous awards.

Instead of remove them and admit the problem, or fix them all together, they nerfed missions to stay within sec status, except for high sec agents, because people were calling for some nerf to lvl 4 as well.

So we get Level 4 high sec that sends us to low sec, but nothing in low sec can send you to high sec. Also level 5 is a consolation prize for any group that can "hold" low sec space. Oh, and then they got rid of quality agents and re-arranged a bunch of mission hubs... (RIP Yarebap).

The real problem to address is why the massive LP payouts instead of bounty, and why always against Empire factions. I mean tie them to FW if you are going to do that. But yes, Low Sec needs something to give it a shot in the arm. You can start by finding a way to eliminate gate camping, thus bringing in more fish for pvp.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1318 - 2015-06-14 01:14:05 UTC
GankYou wrote:


I was implying cutting the rewards in Hisec due to absent risk. Almost absent. Blink

However, if CCP thinks it's balanced in an economical sense with current bounties & payouts from both incursions and Level 4s, meaning ISK faucets in general, then it's balanced.

It would be curious how reasonably far the incomes can be reduced in Hisec and increased in Null to compensate, but then again, they make a shitton of ISK out there™ already.

In fact, Hisec needs high ISK faucets, because they import pretty much all the moon minerals and all of the WH resources, along with Highsend minerals like Megacyte, Morphite, Nocxium and Zydrine.



That is fine. Removing level 4's doesn't solve your problem. It makes some people quit, but most would just blitz level 3's

People are always going to find the most efficient system they can tolerate within their own parameters. Your idea is the same kind of thinking that is ticking off the nullbears right now and making them leave.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1319 - 2015-06-14 01:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So we get Level 4 high sec that sends us to low sec, but nothing in low sec can send you to high sec.


Only if the agent is based a few systems away from Lowsecks IIRC.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:
GankYou wrote:


I was implying cutting the rewards in Hisec due to absent risk. Almost absent. Blink

However, if CCP thinks it's balanced in an economical sense with current bounties & payouts from both incursions and Level 4s, meaning ISK faucets in general, then it's balanced.

It would be curious how reasonably far the incomes can be reduced in Hisec and increased in Null to compensate, but then again, they make a shitton of ISK out there™ already.

In fact, Hisec needs high ISK faucets, because they import pretty much all the moon minerals and all of the WH resources, along with Highsend minerals like Megacyte, Morphite, Nocxium and Zydrine.



That is fine. Removing level 4's doesn't solve your problem. It makes some people quit, but most would just blitz level 3's

People are always going to find the most efficient system they can tolerate within their own parameters. Your idea is the same kind of thinking that is ticking off the nullbears right now and making them leave.


Reasonable efficiency is good and is expected.

I think the train to do something with Level 4s in Hisecks left many, many years ago - around the year 2008-2009 probably. Blink

Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1320 - 2015-06-14 01:33:47 UTC
GankYou wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
GankYou wrote:




Level 4 missions & Incursions. Smile

Completely out of whack compared to Hisec mining, for example.

Ahem... LVL 4's are a form of low sec buffPirate


Last time I checked they were still in Hisec? I remember doing them in 2008 with close to 75-90 mil ISK per hour income, but possibly higher.

The LP exchange rate has been devalued since then, though - courtesy of the FW brethren. P

Yeah but LP boost and mission bonus are higher the lower you go. So high sec missions aren't really superior to null sec PVE at all.