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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1221 - 2015-06-13 19:08:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

So you are arguing that high sec is not essential because people do their activities there but they actually call 0.0 their home?!


No, I'm claiming that highsec is not anywhere near as essential as you puffed up, chestbeating carebears are trying to claim with your deliberately misrepresented stats.

Sure it is. It is where new players start. Where would new players start if Empire sec did not exist? It is essential to game design.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1222 - 2015-06-13 19:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So you are arguing that high sec is not essential because people do their activities there but they actually call 0.0 their home?!

So if you removed high sec they would then what? Just do the things they do in 0.0? There is a reason that Character is in high sec, but you are ignoring that.
Wat™?

I've argued no such thing. I live in hisec, I fall into the entrepreneurs group that makes up 25% of characters.

I'm disputing Icouldchucks interpretation of the data that is erroneously being used to support a farcical claim, not claiming that hisec is irrelevant.

edit ~
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
There is nothing more dishonest then a well spoken individual who takes things that are not present and makes them so for their own justifications.
talk about hoisting yourself by your own petard.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1223 - 2015-06-13 19:14:18 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Sure it is. It is where new players start. Where would new players start if Empire sec did not exist?


A separate cluster, and when they finished their tutorial they'd be zoned into their faction's starting area in New Eden itself.


Quote:

It is essential to game design.


Keep telling yourself that. It might be essential to you, but it's not essential to the game. In fact an argument can be made that it's current state is actively bad for the game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1224 - 2015-06-13 19:20:38 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
So you are arguing that high sec is not essential because people do their activities there but they actually call 0.0 their home?!

So if you removed high sec they would then what? Just do the things they do in 0.0? There is a reason that Character is in high sec, but you are ignoring that.
Wat™?

I've argued for no such thing. I live in hisec, I fall into the entrepreneurs group that makes up 25% of characters.

I'm disputing Icouldchucks interpretation of the data that is erroneously being used to support a farcical claim, not claiming that hisec is irrelevant.

edit ~
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
There is nothing more dishonest then a well spoken individual who takes things that are not present and makes them so for their own justifications.
talk about hoisting yourself by your own petard.



You dispute his data because you assumed he meant all of those groups belong to high-sec. His point was that all of those groups belong to PVE and he would be correct. It is the con-high sec side that claims highsec is full of PVE, so using their own logic all the PVE happens there.

However by your own anecdotal evidence you would have helped prove his point because you are in high sec and you do manufacture.

Regardless, I shouldn't have made that assumption about your intent, and I am big enough to admit that.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1225 - 2015-06-13 19:22:22 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
... my point was that highsec PvErs are 50% of the subscribers. Without their money CCP would be in quite a tough place.
Didn't you claim it was 62% a while back?, You couldn't prove that claim and you can't prove this claim either.

Still waiting on your in depth analysis and presentation supporting your claims, hoping for graphs too.


Oh my, aren't you slow learning? The evidence hs been provided two, or maybe three times already.

Here you have it straight from the horse's mouth:

https://youtu.be/gJlNGtXts_E?t=21m20s

"Professionals" (do everything): 30%
"Entrepreneurs" (do everything but PvP): 25%
"Agressors" (only do PvP and socialize): 8%
"Socials" (they mostly socialize and skillqueue online): 12%
"Traditionals" (They PvE and play EVE as a traditional MMO): 25%

25% +25% =50% of players who mostly do PvE. +12% who mostly chat and skillqueue online, that's 62% of players who barely PvP.

Bonus, on where are characters logged in:

https://twitter.com/CCPQuant/status/590854488405192704/photo/1


So you think that to PVE only, you have to live in high sec?

You don't have an honest bone in your body, do you?


There is nothing more dishonest then a well spoken individual who takes things that are not present and makes them so for their own justifications.

No where did that person make that claim. You are very skilled at forum-fu but you take things out of context when they suit you and blatantly lie about intent and make connections not-valid when you need to rebuff. Try arguing the facts instead of the person.


Look at the post. This guy is saying "traditionals + Entrepreneurs" are all in high sec. He does that, he imagines that everyone is like him. This is simply not true.

That you can't see that speaks volumes,
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1226 - 2015-06-13 19:24:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Sure it is. It is where new players start. Where would new players start if Empire sec did not exist?


A separate cluster, and when they finished their tutorial they'd be zoned into their faction's starting area in New Eden itself.


Quote:

It is essential to game design.


Keep telling yourself that. It might be essential to you, but it's not essential to the game. In fact an argument can be made that it's current state is actively bad for the game.


CCP, Players and the CSM have been trying to figure out ways to get people into 0.0 and low sec for years. During the same time the population has dropped and is now tanking.

Cause and effect I cannot prove, but one thing is for sure, empirical and anecdotal evidence points to a healthy High Sec being the best attraction of player base in this game.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1227 - 2015-06-13 19:36:16 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


CCP, Players and the CSM have been trying to figure out ways to get people into 0.0 and low sec for years. During the same time the population has dropped and is now tanking.

Cause and effect I cannot prove, but one thing is for sure, empirical and anecdotal evidence points to a healthy High Sec being the best attraction of player base in this game.



The problem is your worldview.

CCP has been making the game SAFER (especially in high sec) for years. When EVE was truly harsh, it grew, then came safeties and pop ups and unfillable missions (the missions TELL you want to do, hell there is a pop up when you try to undock without a mission item).

There is this way of thinking that, if you coddled people, it you wrap them in cotton and don't let them get hurt, things will be great, but this is false (even if people believe it of themselves). Danger is what makes things interesting, and making things 'safe' makes things stale.. "Carebear enablers" are exactly like bleeding hearts in real life, their own hearts are probably in the right place, but they are naïve about the results.

If you really care about the future of EVE, you'll lobby CCP to turn back from the themeparking they've been doing the last few years, because it's obviously not working. A fun, dynamic, dangerous game where people have to think about things, That's what has always worked.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1228 - 2015-06-13 19:38:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Sure it is. It is where new players start. Where would new players start if Empire sec did not exist?


A separate cluster, and when they finished their tutorial they'd be zoned into their faction's starting area in New Eden itself.


Quote:

It is essential to game design.


Keep telling yourself that. It might be essential to you, but it's not essential to the game. In fact an argument can be made that it's current state is actively bad for the game.

1. That would ruin EVE Online and goes against everything EVE Online stands for.

2.The people who created EVE Online put a lot of thought into it. Let's not be so quick to dismiss their efforts.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1229 - 2015-06-13 19:42:33 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


CCP, Players and the CSM have been trying to figure out ways to get people into 0.0 and low sec for years. During the same time the population has dropped and is now tanking.

Cause and effect I cannot prove, but one thing is for sure, empirical and anecdotal evidence points to a healthy High Sec being the best attraction of player base in this game.



The problem is your worldview.

CCP has been making the game SAFER (especially in high sec) for years. When EVE was truly harsh, it grew, then came safeties and pop ups and unfillable missions (the missions TELL you want to do, hell there is a pop up when you try to undock without a mission item).

There is this way of thinking that, if you coddled people, it you wrap them in cotton and don't let them get hurt, things will be great, but this is false (even if people believe it of themselves). Danger is what makes things interesting, and making things 'safe' makes things stale.. "Carebear enablers" are exactly like bleeding hearts in real life, their own hearts are probably in the right place, but they are naïve about the results.

If you really care about the future of EVE, you'll lobby CCP to turn back from the themeparking they've been doing the last few years, because it's obviously not working. A fun, dynamic, dangerous game where people have to think about things, That's what has always worked.


LOL a post full of name calling and ridicule. Is that truly all you've got? CCP needs to put EVE back the way it was when it was growing. I guess you are to new to the game to know how great the game was.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1230 - 2015-06-13 19:53:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


CCP, Players and the CSM have been trying to figure out ways to get people into 0.0 and low sec for years. During the same time the population has dropped and is now tanking.

Cause and effect I cannot prove, but one thing is for sure, empirical and anecdotal evidence points to a healthy High Sec being the best attraction of player base in this game.



The problem is your worldview.

CCP has been making the game SAFER (especially in high sec) for years. When EVE was truly harsh, it grew, then came safeties and pop ups and unfillable missions (the missions TELL you want to do, hell there is a pop up when you try to undock without a mission item).

There is this way of thinking that, if you coddled people, it you wrap them in cotton and don't let them get hurt, things will be great, but this is false (even if people believe it of themselves). Danger is what makes things interesting, and making things 'safe' makes things stale.. "Carebear enablers" are exactly like bleeding hearts in real life, their own hearts are probably in the right place, but they are naïve about the results.

If you really care about the future of EVE, you'll lobby CCP to turn back from the themeparking they've been doing the last few years, because it's obviously not working. A fun, dynamic, dangerous game where people have to think about things, That's what has always worked.




Instead of safeties we had pop up messages
Instead of ganks for tears we had ganks for isk
We had high sec level 5's
We had rats that aggroed drones once
We had unprobe-able ships
We didn't have HICS with remote SeBos at every choke-point
It didn't cost billions to war dec in highsec


Missions always told us what to do, that isn't new.

The game has changed you are correct. That is my point. Many of the changes aimed at spuring growth outside of high sec drove players away. The mind set of a "war on carebears" also has driven players away. Again, I have no stats for that other than the changes made and the result of lower subscription base.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1231 - 2015-06-13 19:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

CCP, Players and the CSM have been trying to figure out ways to get people into 0.0 and low sec for years.


Which has been largely unsuccessful, because every time the subject of nerfing highsec to incentivize other parts of space comes up, people like you pitch a fit to protect your golden goose.

Quote:

Cause and effect I cannot prove, but one thing is for sure, empirical and anecdotal evidence points to a healthy High Sec being the best attraction of player base in this game.


It's actually rather the opposite. As highsec gets safer and safer, the game gets less and less popular.

Most people, that being those who aren't maladjusted misanthropes, do not join an MMO to afk in an ice belt all day. People join for action, they join for conflict, they join to fly a spaceship and kick ass. That's the real game, that's what brings people in and keeps people playing.

As we get further and further away from what the game once was(The Wild West in space), it gets less and less popular. The conclusion should be obvious to anyone not blinded by selfish self interest.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#1232 - 2015-06-13 19:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

What is true is that EVE would die without highsec PvErs.


Still wrong. You don't consume anything, compared to the rest of the game, and the economy lives and breathes are consumption and destruction of assets.

You already got put in your place by Malcanis about this, you probably shouldn't try repeating this falsehood.


They do provide the loot & salvage, though, as well as LP store merchandise.

All parts of the whole are important.



And don't forget that according to CCP, 2012 and 2013 stats shows Production centered in High Sec and Destruction fairly sparse throughout 0.0 with the hottest areas of fighting in the game in... High Sec

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65749/1/productionVsDestruction_2013.png


It's a symbiosis that works very well.

Only thing changed since then, is that explosions happenings are far less frequent now, while mass production is more readily available thanks to Crius.

Damn donuts. X

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1233 - 2015-06-13 20:06:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

CCP, Players and the CSM have been trying to figure out ways to get people into 0.0 and low sec for years.


Which has been largely unsuccessful, because every time the subject of nerfing highsec to incentivize other parts of space comes up, people like you pitch a fit to protect your golden goose.

Quote:

Cause and effect I cannot prove, but one thing is for sure, empirical and anecdotal evidence points to a healthy High Sec being the best attraction of player base in this game.


It's actually rather the opposite. As highsec gets safer and safer, the game gets less and less popular.

Most people, that being those who aren't maladjusted misanthropes, do not join an MMO to afk in an ice belt all day. People join for action, they join for conflict, they join to fly a spaceship and kick ass. That's the real game, that's what brings people in and keeps people playing.

As we get further and further away from what the game once was(The Wild West in space), it gets less and less popular. The conclusion should be obvious to anyone not blinded by selfish self interest.



You guys keep saying that high sec has gotten safer over the years. I will use one of your famous lines, and the answer I already know is you don't have any. Where is the data?

There has been no magical drop in total isk, total mass or total numbers destroyed in high sec. High sec continues to be the place where by isk value and hull mass ships are destroyed on par or above that of 0.0

The data has been fairly consistent over the years, with a few blips like when 75 titans are killed in one day. High Sec didn't stop producing killmails just because you said it did.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1234 - 2015-06-13 20:09:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
Market McSelling Alt wrote:





You guys keep saying that high sec has gotten safer over the years. I will use one of your famous lines, and the answer I already know is you don't have any. Where is the data?

There has been no magical drop in total isk, total mass or total numbers destroyed in high sec. High sec continues to be the place where by isk value and hull mass ships are destroyed on par or above that of 0.0

The data has been fairly consistent over the years, with a few blips like when 75 titans are killed in one day. High Sec didn't stop producing killmails just because you said it did.

If players open their maps and look at the statistics, it is easy to see that high sec is one of the most dangerous places in the EVE Universe. High sec and low sec combined are more dangerous than all of null sec.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1235 - 2015-06-13 20:12:17 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:





You guys keep saying that high sec has gotten safer over the years. I will use one of your famous lines, and the answer I already know is you don't have any. Where is the data?

There has been no magical drop in total isk, total mass or total numbers destroyed in high sec. High sec continues to be the place where by isk value and hull mass ships are destroyed on par or above that of 0.0

The data has been fairly consistent over the years, with a few blips like when 75 titans are killed in one day. High Sec didn't stop producing killmails just because you said it did.

If players open their maps and look at the statistics, it is easy to see that high sec is one of the most dangerous places in the EVE Universe. High sec and Null sec combined are more dangerous than all of null sec.



http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2015

It isnt ONE of the most dangerous, it is THE highest concentration of ships kills, as you would expect from having the highest population.

What is concerning to their argument is that 0.0 is the safest in terms of total kills, and has twice the population of low sec which is so far edging 0.0 out as more dangerous.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1236 - 2015-06-13 20:15:08 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

You guys keep saying that high sec has gotten safer over the years. I will use one of your famous lines, and the answer I already know is you don't have any. Where is the data?


Go ahead and take a stroll through some killboards (or the old forums) from back in the day, as far as ganking is concerned. Before the insurance removal, there was far, far more ganking than there is today. Ganking is so rare nowadays that, in a population the size of EVE's, you are more likely to get in a real life car wreck on any given day than have a freighter get ganked in highsec.

Now, if you simply want proof that highsec safety has been buffed, I point to the awox removal. The majority of corps are now much, much more safe from hostile intent than before that change.


Quote:
High sec continues to be the place where by isk value and hull mass ships are destroyed on par or above that of 0.0


Not "highsec". A handful of systems, but highsec as a whole, certainly not.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1237 - 2015-06-13 20:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
... my point was that highsec PvErs are 50% of the subscribers. Without their money CCP would be in quite a tough place.
Didn't you claim it was 62% a while back?, You couldn't prove that claim and you can't prove this claim either.

Still waiting on your in depth analysis and presentation supporting your claims, hoping for graphs too.


Oh my, aren't you slow learning? The evidence hs been provided two, or maybe three times already.

Here you have it straight from the horse's mouth:

https://youtu.be/gJlNGtXts_E?t=21m20s

"Professionals" (do everything): 30%
"Entrepreneurs" (do everything but PvP): 25%
"Agressors" (only do PvP and socialize): 8%
"Socials" (they mostly socialize and skillqueue online): 12%
"Traditionals" (They PvE and play EVE as a traditional MMO): 25%

25% +25% =50% of players who mostly do PvE. +12% who mostly chat and skillqueue online, that's 62% of players who barely PvP.

Bonus, on where are characters logged in:

https://twitter.com/CCPQuant/status/590854488405192704/photo/1
That presentation is based on characters, not unique players. 2 very different things and something to consider with most players having at least one alt that specialises in areas outside of their main playstyle.

Looking at the presentation by CCP Quant I see that some of the entrepreneurs you say do everything but PvP indulge in some very PvP like activities, such as tackling and kill assists; as do some of the social group, some the traditionals are also involved in tackling.

Your claims have been disputed elsewhere in this thread. You're interpreting the data subjectively and to compound it all, the data actually refers to something else entirely.


You're wrong. The analytics are based on unique subscribers and what do they do across their accounts and the characters in them. This is why they claim that at Fanfest "Professionals" are 50% of the attendants, but only 30% of the actual subscribers.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1238 - 2015-06-13 20:17:53 UTC
Your own sig implictly conflates "hi-sec" with "non PvP".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1239 - 2015-06-13 20:20:24 UTC
Bottom line: High sec is where the fun is. It needs to be buffed.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1240 - 2015-06-13 20:20:48 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:

If players open their maps and look at the statistics, it is easy to see that high sec is one of the most dangerous places in the EVE Universe. High sec and low sec combined are more dangerous than all of null sec.


Again with this lie, trying to use Concord's killboard to push your narrative.

You carebears are disgraceful.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.