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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#701 - 2015-05-16 23:39:53 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP has some news for you.

The best player retention amongst any new players, is of those players who experienced PvP combat in some way. The way forward is clear, and it's not your way.

I bet CCP told you that.
Really, that is such a stupid comment to make.

1 in 100 new players (less than 1 month) is ok with losing ships in pvp while he can't reasonably defend himself, has no idea how the game works, no game currency to replace lost ships, etc.
To improve new player retention, CCP need to start offering a LOT more to new players.
If it is considered to be at acceptable levels, player numbers should remain fairly stable. 1 joins 1 leaves.

Most games look at new players as a way to increase player numbers, CCP seem to use them as a means of keeping numbers stable.



CCP have access to actual data to back up their assertions in this matter. What do you have?

Only my deliberate interactions with new players, not a very wide player pool but I based my number on a few months.
Pm'ing new players for a simple chat can be very revealing.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Marsha Mallow
#702 - 2015-05-16 23:51:20 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP has some news for you.

The best player retention amongst any new players, is of those players who experienced PvP combat in some way. The way forward is clear, and it's not your way.

I bet CCP told you that.
Really, that is such a stupid comment to make.

1 in 100 new players (less than 1 month) is ok with losing ships in pvp while he can't reasonably defend himself, has no idea how the game works, no game currency to replace lost ships, etc.
To improve new player retention, CCP need to start offering a LOT more to new players.
If it is considered to be at acceptable levels, player numbers should remain fairly stable. 1 joins 1 leaves.

Most games look at new players as a way to increase player numbers, CCP seem to use them as a means of keeping numbers stable.

The funny thing is, CCP told those of us who do engage with rookies what we already knew (the FF presentation re retention). No-one joins to grind missions. There is better 'end-game-boss-pimp-my-ride' crap in plenty of other games, and established groups who enjoy it and do it well. There's never been an incentive to come here to do high level PVE boss mode content, although incursions/wormholes were a step in that direction.

New players come here for the wild west, then get tangled up with skillpoints and ISK. They are badly misinformed by other players, to a degree that is really damaging, because they're dumped into NPC corps which contain utter dickheads. This trend is being addressed by player groups and by CCP who support those player groups, as well as a revamped NPE which any of us can contribute to. But it's never been assisted by the whiners sitting in NPC corps churning out missions who give bad advice to new players and are poisonous towards the rest of this community both internally and on external sites before they flounce off in a ball of self-righteous indignation.

If EvE dies, it won't be for lack of trying from the playerbase who bothered. But the abject failures have done a lot of damage simply because there are so many of them, and they are so very vocal. Which is why you should always pod everyone, just to be sure.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#703 - 2015-05-17 00:28:26 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP has some news for you.

The best player retention amongst any new players, is of those players who experienced PvP combat in some way. The way forward is clear, and it's not your way.

I bet CCP told you that.
Really, that is such a stupid comment to make.

1 in 100 new players (less than 1 month) is ok with losing ships in pvp while he can't reasonably defend himself, has no idea how the game works, no game currency to replace lost ships, etc.
To improve new player retention, CCP need to start offering a LOT more to new players.
If it is considered to be at acceptable levels, player numbers should remain fairly stable. 1 joins 1 leaves.

Most games look at new players as a way to increase player numbers, CCP seem to use them as a means of keeping numbers stable.

The funny thing is, CCP told those of us who do engage with rookies what we already knew (the FF presentation re retention). No-one joins to grind missions. There is better 'end-game-boss-pimp-my-ride' crap in plenty of other games, and established groups who enjoy it and do it well. There's never been an incentive to come here to do high level PVE boss mode content, although incursions/wormholes were a step in that direction.

New players come here for the wild west, then get tangled up with skillpoints and ISK. They are badly misinformed by other players, to a degree that is really damaging, because they're dumped into NPC corps which contain utter dickheads. This trend is being addressed by player groups and by CCP who support those player groups, as well as a revamped NPE which any of us can contribute to. But it's never been assisted by the whiners sitting in NPC corps churning out missions who give bad advice to new players and are poisonous towards the rest of this community both internally and on external sites before they flounce off in a ball of self-righteous indignation.

If EvE dies, it won't be for lack of trying from the playerbase who bothered. But the abject failures have done a lot of damage simply because there are so many of them, and they are so very vocal. Which is why you should always pod everyone, just to be sure.

And there it is - For those who haven't recently, join one of the help channels or go sit in a rookie system and watch local.
Some of the things I have seen in local chat are just mind boggling.

That is what I mean when I say CCP need to do more for new players. Trolls will troll and new players will get sucked in by them but if new player friendly corps were more obvious and accessible it could help player retention.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#704 - 2015-05-17 00:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP has some news for you.

The best player retention amongst any new players, is of those players who experienced PvP combat in some way. The way forward is clear, and it's not your way.

I bet CCP told you that.
Really, that is such a stupid comment to make.

1 in 100 new players (less than 1 month) is ok with losing ships in pvp while he can't reasonably defend himself, has no idea how the game works, no game currency to replace lost ships, etc.
I'll take CCP's statistics, that were arrived at by actual analysis of the data, over your anecdotes any day of the week.

CCP's own statement regarding new players and the retention rate of those that have engaged in PvP, consensual or not, vs that of those who have not, leads me to believe that your 1 in 100 new players claim is false.

Quote:
To improve new player retention, CCP need to start offering a LOT more to new players.
If it is considered to be at acceptable levels, player numbers should remain fairly stable. 1 joins 1 leaves.
Good news, CCP already offers new players a great deal, albeit indirectly via the medium of the tools they provide to everybody. Those tools are used to offer advice and content to new players by newbie friendly groups such as RvB, the social groups in the NPC corps and many others. Eve has never been about CCP feeding content to players, it has always been about giving players the tools to create their own content, which is something that sets it apart from most other MMO's.

Quote:
Most games look at new players as a way to increase player numbers, CCP seem to use them as a means of keeping numbers stable.
While CCP would certainly like to increase their sub numbers, and the income that comes with that, I don't believe that they're willing to compromise their vision for Eve to accomplish it.

CCP aren't trying to cater for the masses or become the next Blizzard, down that path lies failure as evidenced by the swathes of failed developers and games that have tried to do just that. They cater to a small subset of gamers, hence the term niche game.

Catering to the masses would probably kill Eve faster than anything else that CCP could conceivably do short of shutting the game down.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#705 - 2015-05-17 00:29:52 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP has some news for you.

The best player retention amongst any new players, is of those players who experienced PvP combat in some way. The way forward is clear, and it's not your way.

I bet CCP told you that.
Really, that is such a stupid comment to make.

1 in 100 new players (less than 1 month) is ok with losing ships in pvp while he can't reasonably defend himself, has no idea how the game works, no game currency to replace lost ships, etc.
To improve new player retention, CCP need to start offering a LOT more to new players.
If it is considered to be at acceptable levels, player numbers should remain fairly stable. 1 joins 1 leaves.

Most games look at new players as a way to increase player numbers, CCP seem to use them as a means of keeping numbers stable.



CCP have access to actual data to back up their assertions in this matter. What do you have?

Only my deliberate interactions with new players, not a very wide player pool but I based my number on a few months.
Pm'ing new players for a simple chat can be very revealing.



So no one ever told you that anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all (especially when compared to real data). The reason this is so is because the person basing their opinion off of anecdotes is observing the situation through their own already established biases.

This is why people freak out when data contradicts "things the saw with their own eyes", they don't understand that "their own eyes" only observed a fraction of the world.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#706 - 2015-05-17 00:56:33 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP has some news for you.

The best player retention amongst any new players, is of those players who experienced PvP combat in some way. The way forward is clear, and it's not your way.

I bet CCP told you that.
Really, that is such a stupid comment to make.

1 in 100 new players (less than 1 month) is ok with losing ships in pvp while he can't reasonably defend himself, has no idea how the game works, no game currency to replace lost ships, etc.
To improve new player retention, CCP need to start offering a LOT more to new players.
If it is considered to be at acceptable levels, player numbers should remain fairly stable. 1 joins 1 leaves.

Most games look at new players as a way to increase player numbers, CCP seem to use them as a means of keeping numbers stable.



CCP have access to actual data to back up their assertions in this matter. What do you have?

Only my deliberate interactions with new players, not a very wide player pool but I based my number on a few months.
Pm'ing new players for a simple chat can be very revealing.



So no one ever told you that anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all (especially when compared to real data). The reason this is so is because the person basing their opinion off of anecdotes is observing the situation through their own already established biases.

This is why people freak out when data contradicts "things the saw with their own eyes", they don't understand that "their own eyes" only observed a fraction of the world.

Well going by available data, player retention is even lower than I suggested. I hope I am right and available data is wrong.

Many do realize - Provided data can be (and is) manipulated to show only what the provider wants it to show. It often contradicts what is seen. Following a select target group for 3 months will show very different results to "available data".
Taking the creation of alts (which show as new players) out of the equation, available data leaves a lot to be desired.
EG; A few days ago I contacted 15 "new players" (less than 24 hours old) in a rookie system I watch, 6 of those were newly created alts of existing players. In that hour (according to EveOffline) 79 new accounts were created on TQ, do the math and it doesn't look all that good, unless Eve Alts is the desired meta.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Aristocrate Kondur
DD Starship Ltd
#707 - 2015-05-17 01:19:36 UTC
Yeeh, what a complaining. I love the way EVE is evolving and i really think much of the complaining is coming from guys or corporations that see there "relatively" save space again beeing contested. And as of new players... I loved to save my son pinned down by pirates (and he did too). I agree that EVE is a difficult game and i doubt if the pace of evolving today is contributing to long term commitment. All the info from second parties is often outdated due to the fast-paced modifications. Give players a breath to get accommodated to a new situation. So iam not a supporter of the monthly updates, better is once in three months.. really But PLEASE keep the spirit of EVE alive. Only rules for fair confrontations and prohibit rules that favor existing situations unless needed for game survival.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#708 - 2015-05-17 01:28:53 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP has some news for you.
The best player retention amongst any new players, is of those players who experienced PvP combat in some way. The way forward is clear, and it's not your way.
The funny thing is, CCP told those of us who do engage with rookies what we already knew (the FF presentation re retention). No-one joins to grind missions. ...
The stats being flaunted are flawed.
If run a class on fitting, help newbies set up some ships and then take them on a Low Sec roam, I will guarantee you that they are more likely to keep playing EVE than a newbie who is ganked or killed by a gate camp, solo.

Positive vs negative experiences.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
MidnightWyvern
Fukamichi Corporation
SAYR Galactic
#709 - 2015-05-17 02:38:21 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP has some news for you.
The best player retention amongst any new players, is of those players who experienced PvP combat in some way. The way forward is clear, and it's not your way.
The funny thing is, CCP told those of us who do engage with rookies what we already knew (the FF presentation re retention). No-one joins to grind missions. ...
The stats being flaunted are flawed.
If run a class on fitting, help newbies set up some ships and then take them on a Low Sec roam, I will guarantee you that they are more likely to keep playing EVE than a newbie who is ganked or killed by a gate camp, solo.

Positive vs negative experiences.

Well put.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#710 - 2015-05-17 06:34:16 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP has some news for you.

The best player retention amongst any new players, is of those players who experienced PvP combat in some way. The way forward is clear, and it's not your way.

I bet CCP told you that.
Really, that is such a stupid comment to make.

1 in 100 new players (less than 1 month) is ok with losing ships in pvp while he can't reasonably defend himself, has no idea how the game works, no game currency to replace lost ships, etc.
To improve new player retention, CCP need to start offering a LOT more to new players.
If it is considered to be at acceptable levels, player numbers should remain fairly stable. 1 joins 1 leaves.

Most games look at new players as a way to increase player numbers, CCP seem to use them as a means of keeping numbers stable.

The funny thing is, CCP told those of us who do engage with rookies what we already knew (the FF presentation re retention). No-one joins to grind missions. There is better 'end-game-boss-pimp-my-ride' crap in plenty of other games, and established groups who enjoy it and do it well. There's never been an incentive to come here to do high level PVE boss mode content, although incursions/wormholes were a step in that direction.

New players come here for the wild west, then get tangled up with skillpoints and ISK. They are badly misinformed by other players, to a degree that is really damaging, because they're dumped into NPC corps which contain utter dickheads. This trend is being addressed by player groups and by CCP who support those player groups, as well as a revamped NPE which any of us can contribute to. But it's never been assisted by the whiners sitting in NPC corps churning out missions who give bad advice to new players and are poisonous towards the rest of this community both internally and on external sites before they flounce off in a ball of self-righteous indignation.

If EvE dies, it won't be for lack of trying from the playerbase who bothered. But the abject failures have done a lot of damage simply because there are so many of them, and they are so very vocal. Which is why you should always pod everyone, just to be sure.


This is but one of the reasons I argued so strongly to let people join the NPC corp of their choice.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#711 - 2015-05-17 06:41:23 UTC
Incidentally, this is what "PVE focused" MMOs look like. Get a load of this hooey:

Quote:

"People still do Scorchwing?"


There's a "contract" system; basically daily mini-quests you do at level 50 to fill a bar to get rewards for the week. One of the contract types is do "event X", which killing world bosses are part of.

Actually something of a problem since you only get credit if you damage the boss and do at least 1% of it's HP in damage, which with the large groups that've been forming(since everyone wants to do their contract for the day), an no-one gets credit since it's killed in like 2 seconds with everyone doing .2% of it's HP in damage(all while getting 1 FPS since Wildstar continues to **** the bed with large groups of players).


Yeah I'll stick with EVE, thanks.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#712 - 2015-05-17 06:47:41 UTC
Sovereignty eh ?
For me there is only one question : Are CCPs doing something to break the huge null sec empires, trying to make the null sec game much more dynamic and interesting for smaller entities,
or do they change EVE to please their mafia buddies ?
The rest is blabla.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#713 - 2015-05-17 06:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Many do realize - Provided data can be (and is) manipulated to show only what the provider wants it to show. It often contradicts what is seen. Following a select target group for 3 months will show very different results to "available data".
Taking the creation of alts (which show as new players) out of the equation, available data leaves a lot to be desired.
EG; A few days ago I contacted 15 "new players" (less than 24 hours old) in a rookie system I watch, 6 of those were newly created alts of existing players. In that hour (according to EveOffline) 79 new accounts were created on TQ, do the math and it doesn't look all that good, unless Eve Alts is the desired meta.

the stats being discussed included all new players and not alts
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#714 - 2015-05-17 07:58:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

First: define "fun".


Something done for enjoyment, rather than any particular benefit.

Quote:

Obviously the guy quoting you doesn't knows why mission runners do run missions.


They do it to make money, for whatever reason. Notably, not enjoyment. I've met more than a few nascent mission runners who do it because the NPE led them in that direction, so they think they "have" to run missions.

And we all know that such players, unless interacted with in a meaningful way, eventually quit the game entirely. An argument could easily be made that highsec PvE is actively hurting the game, by damaging potential retention.


You see? Totally clueless. Lol

Let this sink in: mining is fun.

Some people play contact sports. Others go fishing. Part of EVE's beauty is that it allows both styles of having fun, albeit one is neglected and looked upon whereas the other is boasted all over the place. Also, one of the sytles is constantly shoved down the throat of the players who prefer the other style, but that doesn't works in the opposite direction. Some people is in game to be pusshed forever, and some are in game to never risk being pushed back.

And that is an abysmally poor design.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#715 - 2015-05-17 08:12:48 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

Let this sink in: mining is fun.


Just remember everyone, this person wants CCP to listen to them, and change the game accordingly.

Apparently, into something even more boring and pointless than the average facebook game.

By the way, according to CCP's own numbers on retention, mining is not fun. In fact, it's probably the least enjoyable thing in the game. I would not disagree with that assertion, either.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#716 - 2015-05-17 08:19:55 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

Let this sink in: mining is fun.


Just remember everyone, this person wants CCP to listen to them, and change the game accordingly.

Apparently, into something even more boring and pointless than the average facebook game.

By the way, according to CCP's own numbers on retention, mining is not fun. In fact, it's probably the least enjoyable thing in the game. I would not disagree with that assertion, either.

According to CCP's data PvP is not fun for largest part of customer base. Why do you do it? Shocked

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#717 - 2015-05-17 08:20:21 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
First: define "fun".


Something done for enjoyment, rather than any particular benefit.

An AI can't generate the 'fun' roleplaying fetishists demand.

You're mixing up several different playstyles and preferences here without any particular effect btw isachunk.

Solo players can do so without being forced to play in larger groups. Actually a lot of people in mid to large groups are soloers who don't really interract all that much with anyone. The myth that joining a corp is a second job is a myth for anyone but leadership.

You can do trade, indy, research, invention, manufacturing, hauling, mining, exploration as well as regular missions/plexing. You choose not to because, evidently you expect to undock 3 jumps from your nearest trade hub and have NPC generated content delivered. Which is fair enough in some ways provided it doesn't hurt the economy. But you don't insta undock into a dungeon or instance. You undock with us, and we are going to find a way to play with you, because we live here too.

PVE content has been added within the game design philosophy. Wormholes, Incursions, Burners, Drifters. There was already PVE content outside of highsec (level 5s, plexing etc) and rescuing the Damsel for the 2400th time - but you chose not to take it.

Read this and consider why those comments were made.


Hey, I've tried "other playstyles". So far, the Drifter content has costed me a hefty amount of ISK. I've lost a Rattlesnake, a Harbinger, a Prophecy and a Purifier both to Drifters and Seekers. Maybe some people will laugh at me and my display of incompetence (haw haw! I soloed a Drifter in a Venture LOL! YUR NOOB go back to Wow!!!). Now I've learned and don't plan on losing my current ship, while I get what I look for (Antikythera elements) in amounts high enough to compensate for NOT mining ice (specially at the current prices of ice). It's been a nice ride and has kept me subbed for a couple of months.

But, how does CCP plan to reward me? I'll tell you: the next Drifter content is inside wormholes, nowhere a self-respecitng highsec carebear is gonna go. Further, likely Jove observatories will be "destroyed" (=removed) so they can't be further mined for Antikythera elements. CCP, in its endless idiocy, thinks that Antkythera elements are gonna lure ME (or any self-respecting highsec carebear) outside of our "comfort zone" (=the reason why we give money to CCP) and learn "the real game" (wormhole PvP) in order to enjoy wormhole PvE. No. And that's a NO the size of all the players CCP lost to that ASS-umption.

Some people (62% of players?) will NOT learn to PvP just to do more PvE. Because they are not here for the PvP.

This is why all the "new" PvE ahs been so bloody unsuccesful (as Level 5s). We are not here to risk being blown by other players. And so once we choose an amount of risk, we stick to it until we grow bored or we quit. Running some napkin calculations, CCP has lost about one million subscribers to this, and yet they still haven't learned their lessons.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#718 - 2015-05-17 08:31:14 UTC
Why be afraid of wormholes?

It's the best space.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#719 - 2015-05-17 08:32:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

Let this sink in: mining is fun.


Just remember everyone, this person wants CCP to listen to them, and change IMPROVE the game accordingly.

Apparently, into something even more boring and pointless than the average facebook game.

By the way, according to CCP's own numbers on retention, mining is not fun. In fact, it's probably the least enjoyable thing in the game. I would not disagree with that assertion, either.


FYP for truth.Lol

And yes, you're both clueless and arrogant -you didn't even bothered to wonder why mining is fun, despite how I gave you a clue the size of all the guys who take a fishing rod and go spend hours waiting for a shake up...

Mining is fun because it allows you to earn a litlte gain while you socialize OR enjoy your precious "Me time" without being bothered by RL issues and other people.

Mission running is the same, but with inferior intelligences who fight back (say, like scubba fishing) and have a small chance to ruin your day (say, scubba fishing for morays?).

And now comes the part where it turns that a majority of EVE players give money to CCP to do exactly that and nothing else...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#720 - 2015-05-17 08:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Erica Dusette wrote:
Why be afraid of wormholes?

It's the best space.



I don't like pew pew. But if I liked pew pew, I would go wormholes, as that's the most carebear-free pew pew in game. What?

(Oh, and because Bob)

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you