Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I'm well aware of the potential impact of a small change in such a large number as that represented by Null-sec ratting income, I just don't think that the change from a counter to cloakies coming into the game will represent even 1%. See previous post for a rough summary of my assumptions in that regard.

Given that I feel that the pros of the change outweigh the potential economic impact. Worst case CCP can always decrease rat bounties or otherwise tweak things to balance any change in risk.



Without hard data on the affected areas of the game it's all pointless speculation. Besides, in order to counter an actually active cloaky pilot you need to stop ratting, re-ship, and actually go chase him down. That takes time and risks your ship, and hey maybe if Cloakies take a big hit from these changes they'll end up getting a buff out of the deal. As a cloaky pilot I certainly wouldn't complain if some of my crazy Cloaky fits started becoming viable



I don't think I've seen the more recent comments but I do recall that CCP don't like the intel features of Local, but they've also said they don't want to remove it without a replacement, and the last concrete thing we got as to changes was "no, not for the foreseeable future". It's also unlikely CCP will tear out or change Local at the same time as introducing the OAs as that would create too many shocks to the system everywhere in the game.

Regarding that underlined section above.

As a miner, avoiding cloaked ships in sov null is a no-brainer.
Don't get distracted, (what, actually pay attention? Yes).
Don't fit to lose. Unless your section is proven safe enough to carrier rat in, be prepared.
Know your safes. Be ready to enter warp in the five seconds after that name appears.

If you do these, then it is not that they are unlikely to catch you, they have no chance at all. By the time they are done loading the system, you'll be halfway to your safe place.

Having demonstrated this, and by process of elimination showing only carelessness or bad planning can get you popped, why would we keep such a flawless defense on one side, while taking it from a cloaked player?

Perhaps the Observatory could increase (or decrease) lock times for sensors.

Because the cloaked player is able to actively affect the gameplay of other players while remaining completely 100% safe out in space. The miner, ratter, or whatever else is trading activity for safety.

As long as no one comes hunting him the cloaked player is just as safe as before. If someone does come hunting him then he has a chance to do damage he wouldn't have gotten before, because the player went and hid somewhere inaccessible and out of play.

If the player is inattentive then the cloaked player has the same chance to deal damage as previously, and the killboards are *full* of players who were either inattentive or overconfident and died for it, so you can't realistically claim that no one dies to a gank in Null while PvEing.

While it's tempting to increase the risk inherent in PvE in Null if you do that people will either find a way around it or avoid the activity completely if the risk/reward threshold drops below what they consider acceptable or sustainable. In short you can't have significant risk and abundant targets, just look at Low Sec.



Doesn't solve the problem in High or Low Security space, and like I said in the rest of that post you truncated off, the last concrete thing we've heard was "not for the foreseeable future" and that it's unlikely they would rip out the functionality along with introducing the OA, for roughly the same reasons they won't rip out POSes when introducing the new structures. They may transition local to something else in the future, but for right now the change seems unlikely.

Leave local in HS and LS. I don't care, those places really aren't the issue when it comes to AFK cloaking and intel now is it.

Try being part of a High Sec war sometime. SeBo'd Recons off the undock are *very* popular, among other things, because they allow you to remain completely safe in a system without resorting to docking up where you can be bumped, insta-locked, and otherwise dealt with.

Similar deal in Low Sec.



This is incorrect. A player, while cloaked, is capable of warping and otherwise moving around the system, scouting, using probes, using D-Scan. All while completely immune to retaliation. The only thing that compares in terms of safety is being docked up. Also note that your re-ship plan involves a cov-ops cloak itself



This only applies to a Cov-Ops. Bombers, Recons, T3s, and Faction Ships can all mount a reasonable fight and the person hunting for the cloaky pilot doesn't know what he's actually hunting for. It depends on the hull, obviously, but Recons are generally capable ships at the very least.

Under current mechanics the cloaky doesn't have to engage to have an effect. As long as he's in system he's an open thread and should be assumed to be on-grid with anyone and everyone until proven otherwise.



Actually I would argue that very nearly everyone who gets popped in Eve does so because they made a mistake of some sort. Sometimes that mistake was simply pressing the undock button, sometimes it was not asking for scouting, sometimes it was just carrying the wrong thing at the wrong place at the wrong time in High Sec. This is, obviously, a fairly liberal interpretation, but I think on most levels it holds up fairly well. The one place I would make an exception is fleet fights of sufficient size that individual action has very little bearing on whether or not an individual dies or not unless they abandon the fight.



But cloaked gameplay doesn't just affect PvE, and we're not forcing the cloaky pilot to die either, we're just opening up counter play. There is no requirement anywhere in any change made to the game that the status-quo be preserved. In fact that's something of the antithesis of change.

Besides, as you say Eve players are a resourceful lot, so maybe someone will come up with a way to harass or endager PvE pilots without having to resort to a cloaked ship and hanging around AFK until they go do something stupid out of frustration

AFK cloaking is hardly the only thing used to harass PvE players in Null. If you check the killboards there's a nice mix of cloaky and non-cloaky ships on the various ratting BS, T3, HAC, and Carrier kills, and I don't mean on the same kill I mean kills without a single cloaky pilot involved.

If players can't come up with other ways to make each-others lives difficult and that results in an excess of ISK flowing into the game or an over-abundance of safety in Null then CCP can go back and implement tweaks or changes to this to balance things out, but right now PvE ships are very much dying and I've yet to hear of a single player who died while cloaked up and AFK.

I would also point out that nothing should be "unmanageable" as that necessitates that there is no possible counter-play to it, and Eve is a game of risks and rewards. If something is "unmanageable" in the literal sense with no caveats (for example 30 Titans in unmanageable unless you have 60 Titans, but that's a caveat) then there is obviously a lack of counter-play and that's bad for the game.

Lastly, I would point out that the purpose of these debates isn't to convince each other, they're to present the various view points and arguments to the designers at CCP. It doesn't matter, in the long run, whether I convince you or you convince me. Personally I think we both have very developed opinions on this matter and it's unlikely we're going to come to any sort of mutual agreement here. What matters is that we present our arguments clearly with supporting evidence and be willing to walk away with no hard feelings at the end of the day when or if CCP ever make a decision and a subsequent change.

I have been in HS wars, before you were even playing the game (assuming this is your main and not an alt). And skipping over the differences between null uncertainty/risk and HS war decs....

Is the issue is AFK cloaking or cloaking in general? Here is my problem with your type of player (yes that may sound rather rude, but then again I'm getting the distinct impression you are being duplicitous in this discussion)...a war deccing player in a sebo'd recon is...probably not AFK. And he will likely decloak and engage making himself vulnerable to attack as well. So this is really beside the point. Most players who war dec HS corps and alliances are not going to sit cloaked all day....they want the fight and will more often than not engage. Yes, they may start out with a sebo'd recon but my guess is soon after other pilots will be jumping in and joining the fight.

Using the OA to provide a strong counter to AFK cloaking is fine, so long as local is gone. Keeping local and simply nerfing AFK cloaking is not balanced. AFK cloaking is a response to the flawless and instant intel that local provides. It uses those very aspects against the PvE pilots. Simply removing AFK cloaking, and boosting null intel (i.e., keeping local and adding the OA) is even more unbalanced.

In other words, it is comments like this that make me think you are actually anti-cloak and not just anti-AFK cloaking. Further, you want an indirect buff to PvE in null which means hitting PvP in null with the nerf bat.

Oh and you cannot be insta-locked when undocking. There is a timer, in fact you should change your client set up so you can see that timer when you undock. And if you need/want to undock and see what is going on outside the station, set your clone to that station and undock in your pod (assuming you don't have crazy expensive implants, and if you do JC out to one that does not).

And as has been pointed out by both players and CCP Devs, there is not a single player who has died to a player who is cloaked and AFK. Ever.

And actually, I think it was Mad Ani who was killed once while cloaked and AFK...of course I think he was streaming via twitch and I want to say it was some bored Goons/CFC pilots who managed to de-cloak him and kill him.

So, you want to disrupt game balance and you are factually wrong.

No, you're taking my statements too broadly. If you'll dig back a bit in this thread you'll note that I'm talking about the potential for the OA's to disrupt local or delay it.

What I've been saying to you in response is that A. ripping local out of the game entirely as an intel tool isn't viable because there are places OA's will not be anchorable and B. that CCP are unlikely to make any drastic changes to the basic functioning of local with the release of OAs for the same reason they won't remove POSes as soon as these new structures come into the game. Too many drastic changes too quickly is bad for the game.



If you want increased activity in Null then removing perceived safety is the opposite of what you want to do. The vast majority of the player-base is risk averse to one degree or another, and everyone is capable of doing basic math comparing losses vs profits. If you can't make at least enough money to cover losses and other expenses then you won't do an activity.

Ideally if the goal is increasing activity in Null what you want is an increase in perceived safety without actually increasing safety by that much, but still allowing players to relatively easily cover their losses.

IMO flat out ripping out local has exactly the wrong balance. Practically speaking it has a small impact on safety in most cases, but the perceived impact is like



Actually, if you care to go back and stalk down my killboard you'll find a smattering of cloaky deaths (some of them rather embarrassing I'll admit). I fly cloaked ships, I fly them very well, and I've lost very few of them all things considered. I just dislike one sided mechanics like that which cloaking currently presents to players. The initiative is entirely with the cloaked player and until they decloak there is no viable counter-play option, whether they're AFK or not.

As I said, I'm not strictly opposed to removing local, but you can't couch this as that being a simple and logical condition of a counter to cloakies becoming available. It has far more consequences for far more pilots than just a cloaky vs PvE situation, and IMO that particular effect is one of the smaller ones compared to the potential consequences on an attacking force and on recon work in general.

Also could you please find a container to shove the condescension into and then shove it out the Jita 4-4 airlock? I'm well aware of the mechanics surrounding undocking, insta-undocks, and the limitations of a recon camping station. You can still spam lock on someone until they do something to remove their invulnerability timer, and if the thing they did wasn't warping to a safe then they're very very easy to grab with a properly fit ship. The cloak simply allows the player in question to pick their engagements and only take the ones they will guaranteed win hands down with no risk to them. Hunting these players down or trying to trap them is fun, but only for about an hour max. If they feel there's a good shot of them being killed they simply safe up and go AFK, leaving you to chase your tail in futility while they go grab lunch.