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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#581 - 2015-03-09 19:31:40 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Not really, sounds like it's just nuisance for alliances with vast area's of unused space....the trollceptor isn't going to make a career out of gate jumping for 4 hours everyday. It'll get boring while accomplishing nothing and then maybe some real fighting can occur.

it's a nuisance for any alliance who does not overwhelmingly outnumber the people attacking them

guess who has the most numbers in eve

hint: it's us

So the problem isn't with "trollceptors" then is it? Your numbers advantage will remain the same whether ceptors can use the link or not.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#582 - 2015-03-09 19:33:41 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Not really, sounds like it's just nuisance for alliances with vast area's of unused space....the trollceptor isn't going to make a career out of gate jumping for 4 hours everyday. It'll get boring while accomplishing nothing and then maybe some real fighting can occur.

it's a nuisance for any alliance who does not overwhelmingly outnumber the people attacking them

guess who has the most numbers in eve

hint: it's us

So the problem isn't with "trollceptors" then is it? Your numbers advantage will remain the same whether ceptors can use the link or not.

the problem is entirely trollceptors

the fact that we can safeguard our empire is immaterial to the fact that we cannot stop a single person from generating an insane amount of work that must be responded to in every single instance or you risk losing your ihub
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#583 - 2015-03-09 19:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: SilentAsTheGrave
ADMlNlSTRATOR wrote:
Is it true that using a Entosis Link on a sovereignty structure will NOT display any notifications to the players of the alliance owning the structure unless they are in the system under attack? Because, if so, it would highly disengage players from defending their space rather than engage them to undock and go defend their space.
Some big alliances will used their existing IT infrastructure to query the API for such events, but even so, this information will probably be 10 minus late, if even available to normal players (think FC, Directors, CEO only). While there is the question whether you want small scale sovereignty attacks to be dependable with or without FCs, in order to get more people engaged, the attack notifications should be instantaneous and to all players in the alliance owning the structure under attack.

Or you could just be active in the system instead of relying on a 3rd party program to monitor the sov for you. Notifications just enable groups to setup AFK empires. Being undocked and at the keyboard is just what the doctor ordered.

NO NOTIFICATIONS!
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#584 - 2015-03-09 19:34:28 UTC
like i am basically repeating the same thing over and over because y'all keep circling around these same few talking points without actually refuting what i am saying

i could set up a perl script to win the thread at this point
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#585 - 2015-03-09 19:34:47 UTC
I've been following these related threads for a few weeks now, and as an outsider I really only have one question:
How is any of this supposed to be any FUN?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#586 - 2015-03-09 19:35:23 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
ADMlNlSTRATOR wrote:
Is it true that using a Entosis Link on a sovereignty structure will NOT display any notifications to the players of the alliance owning the structure unless they are in the system under attack? Because, if so, it would highly disengage players from defending their space rather than engage them to undock and go defend their space.
Some big alliances will used their existing IT infrastructure to query the API for such events, but even so, this information will probably be 10 minus late, if even available to normal players (think FC, Directors, CEO only). While there is the question whether you want small scale sovereignty attacks to be dependable with or without FCs, in order to get more people engaged, the attack notifications should be instantaneous and to all players in the alliance owning the structure under attack.

Or you could just be active in the system instead of relying on a 3rd party program to monitor the sov for you. Notifications just enable groups to setup AFK empires. Being undocked and at the keyboard is just what the doctor ordered.

NO NOTIFICATIONS!

i suspect that the sov notifications will be built into the game for people actively logged in, as third party programs would be subject to at minimum a five minute delay, which is pretty impossible to act on with the new system
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#587 - 2015-03-09 19:36:17 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread

This thread is about the Entosis link and the sovereignty system thereof. Not just TCUs. If the inty's don't bother with the "pimples" that spawn immediately following the TCU RF, the TCU returns to a non-RF state. I.E. No Problem at all for the defender.

In effect:
Trollceptor RF TCU ---> Trollceptor Leaves ---> TCU Returns to non RF after 4 hours. (No action needed)
Trollceptor RF TCU ---> Trollceptor Engages Sov Node (Need 1 caracal for every 4 Trollceptors per constellation assuming occupancy 40 minute bonus)

what does the tcu have to do with it, you can make timers for ihubs and stations too

if anything the tcu is the least vulnerable to trollceptors

Same deal, if something is RF'd by a trollceptor, and then the inty ignores the "sov pimples" (your stated concern), the RF'd structure (station, IHub, TCU, w/e) returns to a non RF state at the end of 4 hours.

If, as you say, you aren't discussing the trollceptor attacking "sov pimples", then you're literally worrying about having to take no action whatsoever, as any attack that isn't followed by a bout of pimple popping does absolutely nothing.

the problem is that a single attacker generates a disproportionate amount of work for the defenders at any scale without enduring even an iota of risk

that is the whole thing

A single attacker generates no work if they don't move to the pimple popping phase (which was your stated concern).

In a Constellation with occupancy bonuses (40 minute penalty for attacker), 1 defending caracal > 3 troll ceptors.
This generates work, but isn't just ONE attacker.

The only place where the trollceptor is a threat is an UNUSED AND UNDEFENDED system. And nothing entitles you to the ownership of a system that you neither use nor defend.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#588 - 2015-03-09 19:37:01 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I've been following these related threads for a few weeks now, and as an outsider I really only have one question:
How is any of this supposed to be any FUN?


This right here is one of the main problems What?
Dekyk
Raijin Heavy Industries
#589 - 2015-03-09 19:37:16 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.

this is where you've lost the thread

at no point is goonswarm federation interested in good fights

defense of our empire comes first, subjugation of those who would even think of attacking our empire comes second, subjugation of everyone else comes third

fights occasionally occur in the process of completing these two objectives but are completely tangential to our desires and goals

Big smileBig smileBig smile
That was pretty slick. Excellent avoidance of every relevant point in the post.

Nice to know some things never change. Blink

when i can topple the entire post by refuting its primary fulcrum with a minimum of effort i will usually choose that option



You call 70+ posts a minimum of effort? Seriously, stop crapping all over this thread and making it longer than it needs to be please.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#590 - 2015-03-09 19:38:25 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
like i am basically repeating the same thing over and over because y'all keep circling around these same few talking points without actually refuting what i am saying

i could set up a perl script to win the thread at this point

You'd be banned for forum botting

So you'd lose the thread

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Corey Lean
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#591 - 2015-03-09 19:38:30 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I've been following these related threads for a few weeks now, and as an outsider I really only have one question:
How is any of this supposed to be any FUN?

Well its fun if theres a fight. Everybody gets some kills and goes home happy. But all these highsec salvagers, lowsec pirates and NPC null dwellers are dead set on rolling around in interceptors and not fighting.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#592 - 2015-03-09 19:38:49 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

A single attacker generates no work if they don't move to the pimple popping phase (which was your stated concern).

In a Constellation with occupancy bonuses (40 minute penalty for attacker), 1 defending caracal > 3 troll ceptors.
This generates work, but isn't just ONE attacker.

The only place where the trollceptor is a threat is an UNUSED AND UNDEFENDED system. And nothing entitles you to the ownership of a system that you neither use nor defend.

uh yes, the defender absolutely has to respond to the pimples in every single instance or the ihub / tcu gets destroyed and the station either freeported or seized by someone completely unrelated waddling into the space on a lark

even if the initial RF trollceptor biomasses and gets arrested for terminal autism, the defenders have to contest the pimples because the pimples don't go away

like that is a fundamental part of the new sov system
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#593 - 2015-03-09 19:39:11 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I've been following these related threads for a few weeks now, and as an outsider I really only have one question:
How is any of this supposed to be any FUN?

If you can assume (or accept) that trollceptor fleets can and will be easily countered in actively used sov space, which I know is a big ask even though the final stats on the module haven't been finalised...

...want to pvp: take a pvp ship or fleet and put a link on a structure, wait for a defender to undock and come fight :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#594 - 2015-03-09 19:39:12 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Not really, sounds like it's just nuisance for alliances with vast area's of unused space....the trollceptor isn't going to make a career out of gate jumping for 4 hours everyday. It'll get boring while accomplishing nothing and then maybe some real fighting can occur.

it's a nuisance for any alliance who does not overwhelmingly outnumber the people attacking them

guess who has the most numbers in eve

hint: it's us

So the problem isn't with "trollceptors" then is it? Your numbers advantage will remain the same whether ceptors can use the link or not.

the problem is entirely trollceptors

the fact that we can safeguard our empire is immaterial to the fact that we cannot stop a single person from generating an insane amount of work that must be responded to in every single instance or you risk losing your ihub

It is pretty easy to toss on an Entosis Link and just render that Trollceptor useless. Insane amount of work you say? Lol
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#595 - 2015-03-09 19:39:42 UTC
Dekyk wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.

this is where you've lost the thread

at no point is goonswarm federation interested in good fights

defense of our empire comes first, subjugation of those who would even think of attacking our empire comes second, subjugation of everyone else comes third

fights occasionally occur in the process of completing these two objectives but are completely tangential to our desires and goals

Big smileBig smileBig smile
That was pretty slick. Excellent avoidance of every relevant point in the post.

Nice to know some things never change. Blink

when i can topple the entire post by refuting its primary fulcrum with a minimum of effort i will usually choose that option



You call 70+ posts a minimum of effort? Seriously, stop crapping all over this thread and making it longer than it needs to be please.

a single post does not necessarily demonstrate a particularly large amount of effort, yes
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#596 - 2015-03-09 19:40:36 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Not really, sounds like it's just nuisance for alliances with vast area's of unused space....the trollceptor isn't going to make a career out of gate jumping for 4 hours everyday. It'll get boring while accomplishing nothing and then maybe some real fighting can occur.

it's a nuisance for any alliance who does not overwhelmingly outnumber the people attacking them

guess who has the most numbers in eve

hint: it's us

So the problem isn't with "trollceptors" then is it? Your numbers advantage will remain the same whether ceptors can use the link or not.

the problem is entirely trollceptors

the fact that we can safeguard our empire is immaterial to the fact that we cannot stop a single person from generating an insane amount of work that must be responded to in every single instance or you risk losing your ihub

It is pretty easy to toss on an Entosis Link and just render that Trollceptor useless. Insane amount of work you say? Lol

it doesn't get rendered useless, the attacking trollceptor just shrugs, disengages, and starts RFing something else

if you actually want to stop it, hope you got lots of dudes
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#597 - 2015-03-09 19:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuma
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Not really, sounds like it's just nuisance for alliances with vast area's of unused space....the trollceptor isn't going to make a career out of gate jumping for 4 hours everyday. It'll get boring while accomplishing nothing and then maybe some real fighting can occur.

it's a nuisance for any alliance who does not overwhelmingly outnumber the people attacking them

guess who has the most numbers in eve

hint: it's us

So the problem isn't with "trollceptors" then is it? Your numbers advantage will remain the same whether ceptors can use the link or not.

the problem is entirely trollceptors

the fact that we can safeguard our empire is immaterial to the fact that we cannot stop a single person from generating an insane amount of work that must be responded to in every single instance or you risk losing your ihub

Promiscuous Female wrote:

it doesn't get rendered useless, the attacking trollceptor just shrugs, disengages, and starts RFing something else

if you actually want to stop it, hope you got lots of dudes


Again, that's not the mechanic. Only takes one inty to counter you.....just one. It takes you a minimum of 12 minutes to RF. The defender won't lose the ihub unless you come back to take the command nodes if for some reason they can't field one little bitty ship to stop you. How far can an inty go in the 12 minutes minimum(more like 30+) it takes you to RF something?
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#598 - 2015-03-09 19:43:09 UTC
Here is what I don't understand:

Why are people taking sov of a system they don't want to be active in during their prime time?

Someone please tell me the logic behind that.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#599 - 2015-03-09 19:43:23 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
it doesn't get rendered useless, the attacking trollceptor just shrugs, disengages, and starts RFing something else

if you actually want to stop it, hope you got lots of dudes

Three words: Defensive indices bonus

/straps in

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Arrendis
TK Corp
#600 - 2015-03-09 19:43:24 UTC
Sigras wrote:
To the people stating that trollceptors dont matter because you can counter them with a friendly entosis link...

Picture this Scenario

I have a fleet of 300 coming to capture your system after we reinforced it last night, but I dont like Fozzie's idea of splitting my fleet up to capture command nodes in different systems... So i allocate 20 of my ships as trollceptors. I send 4 of them to each command node to prevent it from being captured and move my other 260 people around capping the modules one by one. No need to split up my fleet, no risk of loss.


How'd you get 300 in fleet? Lol