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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

First post First post First post
Author
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#621 - 2015-03-09 19:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread

This thread is about the Entosis link and the sovereignty system thereof. Not just TCUs. If the inty's don't bother with the "pimples" that spawn immediately following the TCU RF, the TCU returns to a non-RF state. I.E. No Problem at all for the defender.

In effect:
Trollceptor RF TCU ---> Trollceptor Leaves ---> TCU Returns to non RF after 4 hours. (No action needed)
Trollceptor RF TCU ---> Trollceptor Engages Sov Node (Need 1 caracal for every 4 Trollceptors per constellation assuming occupancy 40 minute bonus)

what does the tcu have to do with it, you can make timers for ihubs and stations too

if anything the tcu is the least vulnerable to trollceptors

Same deal, if something is RF'd by a trollceptor, and then the inty ignores the "sov pimples" (your stated concern), the RF'd structure (station, IHub, TCU, w/e) returns to a non RF state at the end of 4 hours.

If, as you say, you aren't discussing the trollceptor attacking "sov pimples", then you're literally worrying about having to take no action whatsoever, as any attack that isn't followed by a bout of pimple popping does absolutely nothing.


You must be really thinking that the posters here are so intellectually challenged that, they won't see the "saturate contestant warnings with troll ceptors and other assorted non-commit, cheap ships and then choose one region to actually attack to prevent the defender from responding even if they are capable to" behind your "troll ceptors are okay" shill post.

Did you really think that nobody would be able to call out what you are actually hoping for? Or perhaps you were hoping to conquer sovereign null with no serious commitment of assets and resources without giving the opponent a feasible chance to respond?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#622 - 2015-03-09 19:52:54 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

1 bil to you if you link me a lone ceptor fit to lock to 250km (and that fit isn't shopped).

Soooo much ignorance of basic mechanics in this thread.

obviously i can't do 250km, nor did i ever state that you could

you don't need to lock to 250km to be effective

a malediction's 110km is plenty of buffer
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#623 - 2015-03-09 19:53:02 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

the sov pimples in this discussion strictly serve as the punishment for not dedicating a disproportionate amount of manpower to countering a single trollceptor every single day

You're backtracking. Your perl script really needs some love.


Promiscuous Female wrote:

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread


You mention no punishment here, only the initial RF timer.

arguing semantics doesn't really help you here

But your perl script! Winning the thread!

Rekt. Smile
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#624 - 2015-03-09 19:53:41 UTC
but wait a cerberus can hit a malediction standing still from 110km away, uh ohhhhhhh

oh wait the interceptor has dscan
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#625 - 2015-03-09 19:54:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Glad to hear it. Not that you did of course... as that was far from it's primary point.

But you knew that already didn't you?

A little secret... so does everyone else. Blink

nah, your post was "you want good fights yet you do all this crap that prevents you from getting them thus you are a hypocrite"

when good fights are not really on our list of desires

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile I'm sorry, WHAT?
Okay, I'll be gentle. Let me refresh your memory.
Quote:
I'll quit yanking your chain now, because yes, you make it easy.

However you posted this...

Quote:
because if we can reduce the headache for us and make the system actually livable for people who are not us we achieve what we in the biz like to call "objective benefit"

we can occasionally get what we want without it necessarily coming at the expense of everyone else, weird as it is to see written
End Quote


I will be the first to state that on a very LARGE number of occasions Goons have spoken out against certain mechanics and proposed changes even with those changes might have benefited them (or at least hurt them less extensively than others) if they felt those changes would harm the game overall.

And on those many, frequent, occasions I applaud you... often adding my personal support when you were being dismissed by most as merely trolling or seeking to feather your own nest.

I'll also state that I'm not fond of how frequently cepters will be used to troll sov if left as things are now. I much prefer it require at least a little more commitment (not much though). Ceptor hunting is just an irritating way to spend time.

However, the plus side of easily being able to take sov from someone if they can't put up at least a token resistance (one ship per contested unit) is huge... in fact, it is necessary. Finding the correct balance point is the tricky part.

However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.
Using ceptors doesn't generate good fights.
Using ceptors against us won't work.
If we take YOUR sov we'll use ceptors, because otherwise there would be a good fight...

Then you'll continue to look silly and self serving.

Other entities, large and small, are well able to defend sov assets from mass ceptor sperges... assuming they haven't bitten off more sov than they can hold. You have zero advantage in that department.

I'm quite sure you can cover more territory than most anyone else, and you well deserve that... but don't try to convince folks that your ceptor spam will be a threat to anyone other than those that bite off more sov than they can cover.

Your main threat to other peoples sov is your main combat fleet, as it should be. Ceptor spam is relatively meaningless for anyone but other large entities that over reach themselves.


How you could possibly, conceivably, believe that the main point of that post "Goons don't really want good fights"?

I suppose if I were a typical anti-goon poster hell bent of disagreeing with everything you say you could certainly jump to that conclusion. However, that's not the case. I'm often firmly on your side.

I'm pointing out that this time around, you are purposefully (and obviously) trying to convince people that this won't harm you nearly as much as it will harm others. That's hogwash and you know it.

It's not a good mechanic as is, I heartily agree... but your current line of argument in this is ****-poor and you aren't helping your cause.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#626 - 2015-03-09 19:55:06 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

the sov pimples in this discussion strictly serve as the punishment for not dedicating a disproportionate amount of manpower to countering a single trollceptor every single day

You're backtracking. Your perl script really needs some love.


Promiscuous Female wrote:

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread


You mention no punishment here, only the initial RF timer.

arguing semantics doesn't really help you here

But your perl script! Winning the thread!

Rekt. Smile

nah

you can't actually bring forth a valid point for allowing one person to generate disproportionate work to defenders with holdings greater than one system, it's becoming pretty clear
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#627 - 2015-03-09 19:55:10 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Here is what I don't understand:

Why are people taking sov of a system they don't want to be active in during their prime time?

Someone please tell me the logic behind that.


There's a few reasons I can see - resource availability, like moons, or buffer zones, for example. Border Marches have a long history, after all, along with the 'good fences make good neighbors' idea.

Or constellation/region choke points. Just because you want to hold an area to exploit its strategic value and resources doesn't mean you want to live there - or that it's capable of supporting efforts to live there.

At the same time, there should be ways to make use of that space that actually count as making use of that space, if it's something you're holding for military/industrial value, not residential, if you will.

Paying the pilots from the war chest to be active in these systems is out of the question?
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#628 - 2015-03-09 19:56:43 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

1 bil to you if you link me a lone ceptor fit to lock to 250km (and that fit isn't shopped).

Soooo much ignorance of basic mechanics in this thread.

obviously i can't do 250km, nor did i ever state that you could

you don't need to lock to 250km to be effective

a malediction's 110km is plenty of buffer


185 Dps instantly applied at that range to a moving target at 5km/s says no.

Am I winning thread now?

Edit: For that matter, a loki can get 2.4k alpha at 110km that will track a sebo fit malediction perfectly at that range.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#629 - 2015-03-09 19:56:56 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

1 bil to you if you link me a lone ceptor fit to lock to 250km (and that fit isn't shopped).

Soooo much ignorance of basic mechanics in this thread.

obviously i can't do 250km, nor did i ever state that you could

you don't need to lock to 250km to be effective

a malediction's 110km is plenty of buffer

4x countered (still got rigs, highslots and a lowslot to spare)

http://i.imgur.com/eyMzXd8.jpg

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#630 - 2015-03-09 19:58:55 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

1 bil to you if you link me a lone ceptor fit to lock to 250km (and that fit isn't shopped).

Soooo much ignorance of basic mechanics in this thread.

obviously i can't do 250km, nor did i ever state that you could

you don't need to lock to 250km to be effective

a malediction's 110km is plenty of buffer

4x countered (still got rigs, highslots and a lowslot to spare)

http://i.imgur.com/eyMzXd8.jpg

E-Rekt.

The perl script is failing.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#631 - 2015-03-09 19:59:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile I'm sorry, WHAT?
Okay, I'll be gentle. Let me refresh your memory.
Quote:
I'll quit yanking your chain now, because yes, you make it easy.

However you posted this...

Quote:
because if we can reduce the headache for us and make the system actually livable for people who are not us we achieve what we in the biz like to call "objective benefit"

we can occasionally get what we want without it necessarily coming at the expense of everyone else, weird as it is to see written
End Quote


I will be the first to state that on a very LARGE number of occasions Goons have spoken out against certain mechanics and proposed changes even with those changes might have benefited them (or at least hurt them less extensively than others) if they felt those changes would harm the game overall.

And on those many, frequent, occasions I applaud you... often adding my personal support when you were being dismissed by most as merely trolling or seeking to feather your own nest.

I'll also state that I'm not fond of how frequently cepters will be used to troll sov if left as things are now. I much prefer it require at least a little more commitment (not much though). Ceptor hunting is just an irritating way to spend time.

However, the plus side of easily being able to take sov from someone if they can't put up at least a token resistance (one ship per contested unit) is huge... in fact, it is necessary. Finding the correct balance point is the tricky part.

However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.
Using ceptors doesn't generate good fights.
Using ceptors against us won't work.
If we take YOUR sov we'll use ceptors, because otherwise there would be a good fight...

Then you'll continue to look silly and self serving.

Other entities, large and small, are well able to defend sov assets from mass ceptor sperges... assuming they haven't bitten off more sov than they can hold. You have zero advantage in that department.

I'm quite sure you can cover more territory than most anyone else, and you well deserve that... but don't try to convince folks that your ceptor spam will be a threat to anyone other than those that bite off more sov than they can cover.

Your main threat to other peoples sov is your main combat fleet, as it should be. Ceptor spam is relatively meaningless for anyone but other large entities that over reach themselves.


How you could possibly, conceivably, believe that the main point of that post was that you just claimed?

I suppose if I were a typical anti-goon poster hell bent of disagreeing with everything you say you could certainly jump to that conclusion. However, that's not the case. I'm often firmly on your side.

I'm pointing out that this time around, you are purposefully (and obviously) trying to convince people that this won't harm you nearly as much as it will harm others. That's hogwash and you know it.

It's not a good mechanic as is, I heartily agree... but your current line of argument in this is ****-poor and you aren't helping your cause.

nah, it's exactly as I said

here's the operative point of your post

Quote:

However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.
Using ceptors doesn't generate good fights.
Using ceptors against us won't work.
If we take YOUR sov we'll use ceptors, because otherwise there would be a good fight...

Then you'll continue to look silly and self serving.


that is the part where you call me a hypocrite because i and mine clearly want "good fights"

then there's a line about holding more sov than you can control which is too nebulous to actually be an argument because who decides how much sov is too much to hold

so yeah not convinced
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#632 - 2015-03-09 20:00:04 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Here is what I don't understand:

Why are people taking sov of a system they don't want to be active in during their prime time?

Someone please tell me the logic behind that.


There's a few reasons I can see - resource availability, like moons, or buffer zones, for example. Border Marches have a long history, after all, along with the 'good fences make good neighbors' idea.

Or constellation/region choke points. Just because you want to hold an area to exploit its strategic value and resources doesn't mean you want to live there - or that it's capable of supporting efforts to live there.

At the same time, there should be ways to make use of that space that actually count as making use of that space, if it's something you're holding for military/industrial value, not residential, if you will.

Paying the pilots from the war chest to be active in these systems is out of the question?


Certainly not - and that might well be what happens. But you did ask why you'd take sov in a system nobody wants to be active in. ;)

The easiest way to pay them, of course, would be to allow alliances to set tax rates per system.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#633 - 2015-03-09 20:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Promiscuous Female
PotatoOverdose wrote:

185 Dps instantly applied at that range to a moving target at 5km/s says no.

Am I winning thread now?

Edit: For that matter, a loki can get 2.4k alpha at 110km that will track a sebo fit malediction perfectly at that range.


Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

1 bil to you if you link me a lone ceptor fit to lock to 250km (and that fit isn't shopped).

Soooo much ignorance of basic mechanics in this thread.

obviously i can't do 250km, nor did i ever state that you could

you don't need to lock to 250km to be effective

a malediction's 110km is plenty of buffer

4x countered (still got rigs, highslots and a lowslot to spare)

http://i.imgur.com/eyMzXd8.jpg


both of these suffer from the problem where the ship attacking the interceptor is somehow able to keep the interceptor inside of its optimal at any point

interceptors get to, y'know, move, especially when they see long range turret ships on dscan

eft warrioring is nice and all but attacking ships that politely sit inside a turret wielding ship's optimal just doesn't happen when the targeted ship can move freely

re: the maulus, great, you stopped one RF event, interceptor disengages and uses its superior warp speed to get to another one
Tycho VI
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#634 - 2015-03-09 20:02:05 UTC
Tycho VI wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Trollceptors are a myth do not buy it. They'll be shattered by missile boats.



The problem with interceptors being fitted with the Entosis isn't the couple troll ceptors that will be going around space.

It is the fact that a good 40 of them can leave the system of Amarr in Highsec and they can literally be deep in Cobalt Edge or Esoteria within 15-20 mins. Due to being interdiction nullified, they can move very quickly throughout new eden on short notice.

I believe that this would not be an issue some years ago when interceptors were not interdiction nullified. Having strategically places bubbles on gates should be a viable method of defending your space by giving some time to see the attack coming.



This should not be a realistic method of taking sov, having a kitey hit squad pick a blip on the map to go hit anywhere in new eden within 5 mins of making the decision
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#635 - 2015-03-09 20:03:06 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
both of these suffer from the problem where the ship attacking the interceptor is somehow able to keep the interceptor inside of its optimal at any point

interceptors get to, y'know, move, especially when they see long range turret ships on dscan

eft warrioring is nice and all but attacking ships that politely sit inside a turret wielding ship's optimal just doesn't happen when the targeted ship can move freely

I just sit at zero and sensor damp you...you lose lock and your cycle is reset whilst mine, being at zero, continues ticking. I have no need to chase you.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#636 - 2015-03-09 20:03:30 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
both of these suffer from the problem where the ship attacking the interceptor is somehow able to keep the interceptor inside of its optimal at any point

interceptors get to, y'know, move, especially when they see long range turret ships on dscan

eft warrioring is nice and all but attacking ships that politely sit inside a turret wielding ship's optimal just doesn't happen when the targeted ship can move freely

I just sit at zero and sensor damp you...you lose lock and your cycle is reset whilst mine, being at zero, continues ticking. I have no need to chase you.

i move to another objective
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#637 - 2015-03-09 20:03:39 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
If a single inty can take sovereignty uncontested, it's probably an unused system the defender shouldn't have sovereignty over anyways....working as intended? How far can one inty go in 12 minutes when they are alerted to you RFing?

we aren't even into the "lost sov object" phase of the discussion yet but thank you for your off-topic contribution laced with talking points about unused sov

These talking points are the best

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#638 - 2015-03-09 20:04:01 UTC
All these proponents of the system keep thinking in terms of a 1v1. "I counter your off-grid boosted trollceptor with my Cerberus and my cyno alt in a Maulus."

Think about this system in the context of defending one constellation with a small alliance. Assume a small alliance (Alliance A) with a maximum of 100 players active in a given time zone. Assume a typical 0.0 constellation with six systems (three stations). In our example, there is only a single entry gate to the constellation - should be optimum terrain to defend.

Now, never mind the fact that 100 active players in six systems is going to be cramped. You want us to actually live in the space, right? So, none of these characters is making their ISK from highsec incursion running, or FW, or any way that takes them away from their space. Let's assume these are unusually unselfish people who don't mind running the worse anomalies, "just because it's for the good of the whole." They even mine to raise the index.

Alliance A is happily doing their thing in this space. They rat, they mine, they build, they roam, they do home defense. In the current sovereignty system, they can join with friendly alliances nearby to defend a critical timer. The local occupants in nearby NPC space provide lots of small gang content, but are not a threat to their ownership of the system.

Then one day Alliance B gets together 200 pilots and decides to use Alliance A as a punching bag. They move to the nearby NPC space and set up a staging area. The attack comes quickly and swiftly in the form of a 150-pilot interceptor gang. It shows up in Alliance A's prime time and by some miracle every single active member of Alliance A is online, active on comms, and has all the ships needed for a fight. Alliance B jumps into Alliance A's space and quickly begins entosising everything they can. Alliance A has 15 different structures to defend - 3 stations, six TCU's, and six IHubs. Now is where the fun [broken] part starts.

Alliance A has several possible strategies:

(1) A disregards the dictum that "he who defends everywhere, defends no where." A attempts to play a perfect defense and puts 6-7 pilots at each structure. A has to put larger ships at each position in order to compensate. Once Alliance A has committed to defending each structure, Alliance B brings in another 50 pilots in Ishtars and wrecks each one in short order. Alliance A tries to regroup and form up to meet the Ishtar fleet, but the Ishtar fleet runs whenever this happens. This goes on for four hours or until Alliance A finally loses all the timers. Even if, through some miracle, Alliance A holds on for four hours of this nonsense and manages to save half the timers, but has still lost seven. In that case, in 48 hours, they now have 35 separate structures to defend (spread throughout the constellation).

(2) A tries for a middle ground and chooses to defend the three station systems: 3 stations, 3 TCU's, and 3 IHubs. With only 9 structures, A can now put 10-12 pilots per structure. Alliance B quickly reinforces the other three systems, then uses the mobility advantage to hold A in place while it brings in the 50 Ishtars. Even if Alliance A masses all the pilots in a given system, they are still dealing with 50 Ishtars and 150 interceptors. Alliance A loses tons of tackle ships trying to hold down the Ishtars, while B warps around at will, kiting the heavier Alliance A fleet and hitting the undefended structures whenever they can. Once again, if through some miracle, Alliance A wins half the timers, they still have 25 timers (spread throughout the constellation) to defend in 48 hours.

(3) A chooses to defend only one system. They put everything into defending the station in one system. B wins all the timers that A forfeits. They then reship into a proper 200-person fleet and beat Alliance A at the station, unless A has lots of experienced pilots in capital ships. In which case A commits everything to hold that one station. B now has tons of timers; A has temporarily defended the one station.

The next day, B can threaten the station, and any other remaining structures. 48 hours later... when all those timers come out, the same basic thing happens again. B uses numbers and mobility to beat A.

Or, option (4) A realizes this is stupid and moves to the nearest NPC station. Most of the members start living off ninja-ratting, NPC missions, and exploration. No one bothers upgrading the I-Hubs, so the anomaly ratting is terrible. Mining and industry are essentially non-existent (who builds a factory in a wartorn wasteland?). People start spending more time running Incursions in high sec or FW in low sec, which fragments the alliance and tears apart the social bonds that hold it together. Without owning space, A starts to bleed off members who want to be members of a 0.0 alliance that owns space. Some move to other alliances... In other words, Goons get even bigger. Others stop playing at all. Each day, as fewer people log in to comms, it becomes less fun to be there. A dies and Eve loses a few more subscribers.

Yes, Dominion sovereignty might not be perfect, but it is a damn site better than the above. The offensive power of Fozzie Sovereignty is completely out of balance. The defender has to be able to defend everywhere, but has no opportunity to fortify or entrench his position.

Some might say, "but the same thing will happen now!" This is simply untrue. For one, in Dominion, the offense has to commit significant assets to stage an attack. Yes, if someone brings fifty supers to the fight, A may have a problem. But if fifty supers come to the fight, A can request help from friendly alliance C and we get a big fight, or a massive blue-ball fest (that at least has the advantage of only being once, not every day). In Fozzieland, if C tries to help A against B, D will entosis C's stuff. And don't forget that anyone who comes to help probably gets Space Aids. Thank you, Fozzie.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#639 - 2015-03-09 20:04:37 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
i move to another objective

Good, meanwhile I recap this one at upto 4x the speed because of my defensive indices.

So you're against a 4x timer as well remember?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#640 - 2015-03-09 20:04:55 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
both of these suffer from the problem where the ship attacking the interceptor is somehow able to keep the interceptor inside of its optimal at any point

interceptors get to, y'know, move, especially when they see long range turret ships on dscan

eft warrioring is nice and all but attacking ships that politely sit inside a turret wielding ship's optimal just doesn't happen when the targeted ship can move freely

I just sit at zero and sensor damp you...you lose lock and your cycle is reset whilst mine, being at zero, continues ticking. I have no need to chase you.

i move to another objective

So you lose, and will lose again to another frigate or inty. You will continue this game of flying around accomplishing nothing for hours on end.....congrats, you won eve.