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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

First post First post First post
Author
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#761 - 2015-03-09 21:38:06 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
So what you're saying is that the maulus pilots only need to spend a fraction of the time sitting/orbitting a structure to undo this troll...

And of course you assume that the maulus pilot isn't just a local bear that docked up and swapped ships quickly to defend his current system rather than chasing the interceptor to systems...that aren't his system?

Genius.


Oh, I don't think there's any doubt that the maulus pilots only need a fraction of the time sitting/orbitting a structure to undo the troll. Nor do I think there's any reason not to believe that the maulus pilot isn't a local nullbear who's swapped over to a defensive ship. In doing so, though, he's eating into his 'making money' time. And ostensibly, the reason he makes his money that way is that's what he enjoys doing. The troll pilot, on the other hand, enjoys trolling. So one side is getting what they want (provoking a reaction), while the other side is not (interrupting their planned activities to deal with the troll).

Ultimately, it's a question of which side (trolls vs residents) gets tired of doing it first. And if the history of online social interaction has shown us anything - completely setting aside 'Goons' or 'Eve' or even online gaming and going right back to 40+ years of usenet etc - is that trolls will keep on trolling just as long as they can get a reaction. Even showing up to put a stop to their activities only yields 'umad bro? lololol'.

The only response that doesn't feed the troll, as it were, is to ignore them - which in this case, means they RF your stuff.

Utlimately, the troll can't lose, if all he wants to do is troll. Can the defenders keep their space intact? Sure. But the troll can't lose. Not even if he gets stopped. Not even if he gets blown up. Because he's trolling, and you reacted. And that's what gets him off - feeling like he's made you play his game, not yours.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#762 - 2015-03-09 21:39:43 UTC
davet517 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


If the change then happens and the big group then proceeds to do exactly what they warned they would, the dumb people who didn't heed the warning use it as another reason to hate the big group lol. If it weren't so sad, it would be funny.


I'll ask again, who, exactly, do you think they are going to do it to who cant return the favor in spades? The other coalitions renters? I'm not sure that anyone other than those renters has a problem with that, and when you go down that road, be prepared to lose your own renters. They're threatening to grief some fantasy small sov holder that doesn't actually exist, and won't exist, unless and until the coalitions break up.

Actually, the fantasy scenario for most unaligned folks is for the two coalitions to grief each other into the ground while they hammer away from NPC space, so, swing away.

I kind of think that the same oligarchs who negotiated botlord will avoid that, though. They won't attack each other's soft renter underbellies and swaths of barely occupied systems. That'll be the privilege of others.

No way, you mean even more not-blue-but-we-have-agreements is what will come out of this? But I thought it was supposed to shake up null

Then... who will end our 0.0 nightmare?!?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Killian Cormac
Cormac Distribution
#763 - 2015-03-09 21:41:29 UTC
Ranafal wrote:
OMFG, 40 pages and still no solution for trollceptor?


Incorrect.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#764 - 2015-03-09 21:42:23 UTC
davet517 wrote:

I'll ask again, who, exactly, do you think they are going to do it to who cant return the favor in spades? .

the optimistic fools who think that the change means they can now have sov

blocs will continue to exist as the only way to prevent getting blasted out of nullsec by a bored bloc in a week
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#765 - 2015-03-09 21:43:52 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
davet517 wrote:

I'll ask again, who, exactly, do you think they are going to do it to who cant return the favor in spades? .

the optimistic fools who think that the change means they can now have sov

blocs will continue to exist as the only way to prevent getting blasted out of nullsec by a bored bloc in a week

But can they at least blast the blocs out of nullsec as well?

It's meaningless if random npc nullsec dwellers can't just destroy everyone's 0.0 fantasy you know

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#766 - 2015-03-09 21:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: KIller Wabbit
Andrea Keuvo wrote:

Right now these systems are typically rented out and are protected by the sheer HP grind and the knowledge that they will be defended by the landlord.


Which part of "Death to Rentals" did you miss?

What has been proposed is a great place to embark on the journey. Ship it, Fozzie.

Edit: Actually, I remembered one idea that I thought had merit - support of players who don't want to sit in a system for 4 hours a day or participate in a 6 hour fleet. Idea: Upgraded systems have an even smaller window of vulnerability, 2 hours. Underutilized systems - up to 8 hours. Interceptors would need their bubble invulnerability revoked if carrying the EL.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#767 - 2015-03-09 21:46:20 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
What has been proposed is a great place to embark on the journey. Ship it, Fozzie.

Let's do this thing.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#768 - 2015-03-09 21:46:42 UTC
be honest now
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#769 - 2015-03-09 21:48:07 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:

Right now these systems are typically rented out and are protected by the sheer HP grind and the knowledge that they will be defended by the landlord.


Which part of "Death to Rentals" did you miss?

What has been proposed is a great place to embark on the journey. Ship it, Fozzie.

nobody's really discussed the effect of this on renters, mostly because its effect on renters isn't real dependent on the link stats so its irrelevant to this thread
Tycho VI
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#770 - 2015-03-09 21:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tycho VI
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Erasmus Grant wrote:
Guess the one or two post I made suggesting that Battle-cruisers should be the smallest ship that can fit an E-Link is too vocal. Guess I will no longer give feedback anymore.

The problem with that is you start limiting the meta dramatically, which is bad. It is obvious in this thread and the previous that simply being active in a system you have sov in is enough of a counter. Requiring BC or larger just means outer lying regions continue to be afk risk free empires due to camping a couple choke points. Which again, is bad.



Should it really not be this way? Is it not realistic to have the farthest backwater regions have to be expanded out to by en entity? or to have a planned, extensive operation for a smaller organization to take the farthest of systems and hold it without a connection? It will be this way regardless of whether or not an intercepter can get there and take it in 5 mins of travel from high sec due to the distance to resupply the market there.

Is it really so non sensible to have the meta support larger ships? This is how it is in real life. Iranian gunboats will not be able to take over a country, however a couple airfraft carriers with destroyer support.... I should be able to throw a few rocks(interceptor battalion) at your giant compound and the entire thing blow up like a nuke? We should keep to common sense.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#771 - 2015-03-09 21:50:32 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
davet517 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


If the change then happens and the big group then proceeds to do exactly what they warned they would, the dumb people who didn't heed the warning use it as another reason to hate the big group lol. If it weren't so sad, it would be funny.


I'll ask again, who, exactly, do you think they are going to do it to who cant return the favor in spades? The other coalitions renters? I'm not sure that anyone other than those renters has a problem with that, and when you go down that road, be prepared to lose your own renters. They're threatening to grief some fantasy small sov holder that doesn't actually exist, and won't exist, unless and until the coalitions break up.

Actually, the fantasy scenario for most unaligned folks is for the two coalitions to grief each other into the ground while they hammer away from NPC space, so, swing away.

I kind of think that the same oligarchs who negotiated botlord will avoid that, though. They won't attack each other's soft renter underbellies and swaths of barely occupied systems. That'll be the privilege of others.

No way, you mean even more not-blue-but-we-have-agreements is what will come out of this? But I thought it was supposed to shake up null

Then... who will end our 0.0 nightmare?!?


Apparently your agreements won't actually be relevant to the rest of the eve player base.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Erasmus Grant
Un4seen Development
Sev3rance
#772 - 2015-03-09 21:51:10 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Erasmus Grant wrote:
Guess the one or two post I made suggesting that Battle-cruisers should be the smallest ship that can fit an E-Link is too vocal. Guess I will no longer give feedback anymore.

The problem with that is you start limiting the meta dramatically, which is bad. It is obvious in this thread and the previous that simply being active in a system you have sov in is enough of a counter. Requiring BC or larger just means outer lying regions continue to be afk risk free empires due to camping a couple choke points. Which again, is bad.


Nothing is afk risk with titan bridges and wormholes. What is the point getting a bunch of frigates past these choke points if it is the only thing you can get past these points. There are mechanics in the game already to get past these chokepoints. Problem with Null Sec is that most of it is not worth control in the first place. If it was N3 would be alot smaller.
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#773 - 2015-03-09 21:52:37 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Your objective is to spend 20-30 minutes in an active system to waste about 2-4 minutes of the defender and nothing else? Have fun with that.....I will enjoy the countless man hours wasted by these supposed "burn down all of nullsec trollceptors!"

no, the attacking interceptor gets to disengage within 2m of getting caught

for the basic math challenged, 2 minutes is a lot shorter time than 20-30 minutes

Uh.....math huh. So what happens when you sit there for 30 minutes with you link active only to have some noob frigate come in and halt your progress? You magically get that time back?
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#774 - 2015-03-09 21:52:57 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counter productive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.


4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#775 - 2015-03-09 21:53:44 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Your objective is to spend 20-30 minutes in an active system to waste about 2-4 minutes of the defender and nothing else? Have fun with that.....I will enjoy the countless man hours wasted by these supposed "burn down all of nullsec trollceptors!"

no, the attacking interceptor gets to disengage within 2m of getting caught

for the basic math challenged, 2 minutes is a lot shorter time than 20-30 minutes

Uh.....math huh. So what happens when you sit there for 30 minutes with you link active only to have some noob frigate come in and halt your progress? You magically get that time back?

you placed the system into reinforced, because 29.5m is the maximum it takes for anything but the exceedingly rare mining system
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#776 - 2015-03-09 21:53:50 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
davet517 wrote:

I'll ask again, who, exactly, do you think they are going to do it to who cant return the favor in spades? .

the optimistic fools who think that the change means they can now have sov

blocs will continue to exist as the only way to prevent getting blasted out of nullsec by a bored bloc in a week

C'mon now, this is EVE.

You know full well that most of the EVE player base is more interested in tearing bloody bits off of your Sov holdings than they ever will be holding Sov of their own. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
The Bastion
#777 - 2015-03-09 21:54:09 UTC
davet517 wrote:

You get a notice if your sov's being attacked. The whole point of this is to live in the systems that you claim. Don't live there, don't claim it. If you do live there, you don't need to camp because of one cloaky neut. If the alarms go off, respond.

Lots of red-herrings flying around here, but, nobody wants to address the elephant in the room. It's renters, mostly. Renters whose "defense" is to safe up when neuts enter system. Not to mention, shall we say, "auto-renters" that are programmed to do so. Ever lead a roaming gang through the south only to encounter system after system with one nullified tengu that warps to a POS when you enter? Mr. Dave has. It's pretty sad.

Systems that are actually occupied and used by people who can fight will have no issue here. This PR blitz is, at least to a large degree, to try to protect absentee landlord income streams.


The issues people living in sov are concerned with have nothing to do with living there. Give us a reason to want to live somewhere (i.e. income) and we'll live there. Most are broadly in favour of the proposal, it's just the issue of balance. No game mechanic should tip the balance between Attacker and Defender in to eithers corner yet introducing a module used for hacking sov that can be fitted to a ship with the lowest sig radius and fastest speed, can warp through bubbles and target at comparatively long range tips that balance very firmly in favour of the attacker. That needs to change because the outcome of contesting Sov should come down to the players involved, not the game mechanics at work.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#778 - 2015-03-09 21:54:19 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Your objective is to spend 20-30 minutes in an active system to waste about 2-4 minutes of the defender and nothing else? Have fun with that.....I will enjoy the countless man hours wasted by these supposed "burn down all of nullsec trollceptors!"

no, the attacking interceptor gets to disengage within 2m of getting caught

for the basic math challenged, 2 minutes is a lot shorter time than 20-30 minutes

Uh.....math huh. So what happens when you sit there for 30 minutes with you link active only to have some noob frigate come in and halt your progress? You magically get that time back?

30m is enough to cap the average deklein point

everywhere else is much, much, much faster
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#779 - 2015-03-09 21:55:24 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
davet517 wrote:

You get a notice if your sov's being attacked. The whole point of this is to live in the systems that you claim. Don't live there, don't claim it. If you do live there, you don't need to camp because of one cloaky neut. If the alarms go off, respond.

Lots of red-herrings flying around here, but, nobody wants to address the elephant in the room. It's renters, mostly. Renters whose "defense" is to safe up when neuts enter system. Not to mention, shall we say, "auto-renters" that are programmed to do so. Ever lead a roaming gang through the south only to encounter system after system with one nullified tengu that warps to a POS when you enter? Mr. Dave has. It's pretty sad.

Systems that are actually occupied and used by people who can fight will have no issue here. This PR blitz is, at least to a large degree, to try to protect absentee landlord income streams.


The issues people living in sov are concerned with have nothing to do with living there. Give us a reason to want to live somewhere (i.e. income) and we'll live there. Most are broadly in favour of the proposal, it's just the issue of balance. No game mechanic should tip the balance between Attacker and Defender in to eithers corner yet introducing a module used for hacking sov that can be fitted to a ship with the lowest sig radius and fastest speed, can warp through bubbles and target at comparatively long range tips that balance very firmly in favour of the attacker. That needs to change because the outcome of contesting Sov should come down to the players involved, not the game mechanics at work.

never let it be said that i refuse to agree with a poster because of their alliance affiliations because i agree with this post quite a lot
Tycho VI
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#780 - 2015-03-09 22:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tycho VI
I mean....if the meta of the game shifts to the point of smaller ships like frigates and destroyers having more of an effect then a doctrine fleets of 100k ehp+ that are slow moving and expensive in a new sov system where systems can change hands so easily to small, fast groups of people:

Then you will find that no one will want to fly expensive things anymore. Not at the risk of them being blown up in battle, but at something far worse....The worry that you will have to go away from eve, go on vacation, or whatever, for 1 or 2 weeks...and coming back to all your stuff being deadzoned and gone forever, which could actually be a very common thing if the changes aren't done right...not just one ship like a carrier, but every single thing you own not just in that station, but that entire region.

I already plan on moving capital assets to lowsec when the sov changes roll out for a few months just to see how the map moves, and I am sure that I am not the only one thinking about doing this. Mostly because I have RL stuff I will be busy with when June rolls around...but yeah