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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#421 - 2015-03-09 18:08:35 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Point being, your entire organization doesn't need to be trying to kill interceptors constantly, just devote the necessary number of ships to keep an Entosis point on your important stuff. If you can't do that, scale back a bit until you can.

the fact that we can easily do exactly this is immaterial to the point

The fact that your are complaining bitterly about the need to do this is very material to the point. Blink
Why would you care if others are unwilling to do so? That's not your problem.

because if we can reduce the headache for us and make the system actually livable for people who are not us we achieve what we in the biz like to call "objective benefit"

we can occasionally get what we want without it necessarily coming at the expense of everyone else, weird as it is to see written


I suffer from withdrawal if I don't hear about suffering in EVE every day...

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#422 - 2015-03-09 18:09:11 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
So.... your area of control shrinks to something manageable and the downside is that you get lots more good fights close to home with people you've likely never seen before?

For other folks they get the chance to make a stake and experience 0.0. Even if they can't hold their sov, they have fun and perhaps find an area where they DO manage to hang on and grow?

I'm not really seeing a downside here... for anyone.

interceptors don't generate fights, they run away

why would you contest sov with anything but the cheapest, most maneuverable ships in the new system

Because you want good fights?

Go take Sov with a fleet if you want a fight.

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Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#423 - 2015-03-09 18:09:56 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

This is where living in your space helps.

deklein is the most populous and densest region in eve with the best indexes so i am not sure where you are going with this



Deklin is a barren wasteland of empty useless space..where you could literally search for hours looking for targets outside of the main staging systems of the CFC and goons...and Deklin is the poster child for exactly what is wrong with the current SOV mechanics.


Yet Deklein is operating at full capacity. It doesn't get denser than that.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#424 - 2015-03-09 18:11:11 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
come on a corm sniping fleet :) and it will cure your doubts

ah yes the cormorant with its staggering 80-100km range



The PVE must be strong in you

you can hit to 110km with the corms for insta pop damage...and I would think that the mighty goons/CFC can field a huge fleet of perhaps 10 of them to kill ceptors...no?

Or is that beyond your PVP capabilities?

You seemed ok fielding 20+ celestis all the time to damp out fights ..so a few corms or any of th eother anti frig meta ships should be easy no?
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#425 - 2015-03-09 18:11:28 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

This is where living in your space helps.

deklein is the most populous and densest region in eve with the best indexes so i am not sure where you are going with this



Deklin is a barren wasteland of empty useless space..where you could literally search for hours looking for targets outside of the main staging systems of the CFC and goons...and Deklin is the poster child for exactly what is wrong with the current SOV mechanics.

you do realize all of us can trivially check dotlan and see that deklein is massively more occupied than anywhere else
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#426 - 2015-03-09 18:11:47 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Look, even if you don't believe the rail boats (and the better arty and beam boats) can make intys squish at 100+ (and they do), the Cerberus can be fit to hit past 140km with RLML.

I trust everyone here knows what RLML does to an inty? Cool

nothing as it effortlessly burns outside of that range due to dscan, warp deceleration, and crappy lock time on the smallest signature ship in the game

If it burns out of range, the entosis link deactivates, you win.

Cerberus with 137km RLML Range (I lied it isn't 140, my bad lol):
https://o.smium.org/new/5916218721826766848#modules,search

Getting an inty to even lock past 137km is no small feat, but even THAT doesnt matter. Also, any decent rail boat (eagle, tengu, naga) will apply dps effectively well past that.

The zomg-trollceptor crowd needs to stop being bad.

uh you start moving the interceptor out of range if a caracal waddles onto grid, you don't just sit there and take it on the chin

caracal RLML misl takes 12 seconds to hit the target, at which point the interceptor has burned an additional 60km on the caracal

missiles don't hit if the target moves out of their effective range while the missiles are in flight

the point of the trollceptor isn't to effortlessly cap any objective, it's to cause an immense, logarithmically increasing amount of work for defenders while shouldering zero risk

it's mostly the risk part that is the issue, generating logarithmically increasing amounts of work is much less defensible considering the stated aims of the sov revamp to break up existing holdings

the only rebuttal I have seen from the pro-trollceptor crowd is little (wrong) vignettes about how easy it is to stop one ship from capturing one objective, when the problem is that it can hit any objective it wants without risk
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#427 - 2015-03-09 18:12:47 UTC
like seriously that deklein is, by far, the most inhabited and used region is an objective easily proven fact like that the sky is blue

trying to argue anything else just makes you look like an idiot even to npc posters supporting trollceptors
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#428 - 2015-03-09 18:12:57 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Yep 2 preformed fleets trying to chase multiple inty gangs around 3 regions sounds exactly like the problem that you're trying to frame as other people's issue. Unless of course you can ban these evil ceptors and just wait at a couple of convenient bubble camped gates.
Now that'd be boringly easy to manage wouldn't it?

How about you come to nullsec yourself and see how often we get fleets going for no greater reason than "It's monday, time to kill some stuff"? Forming an inty fleet is not the same as forming a supercap fleet.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#429 - 2015-03-09 18:12:58 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

This is where living in your space helps.

deklein is the most populous and densest region in eve with the best indexes so i am not sure where you are going with this



Deklin is a barren wasteland of empty useless space..where you could literally search for hours looking for targets outside of the main staging systems of the CFC and goons...and Deklin is the poster child for exactly what is wrong with the current SOV mechanics.

And with the threat of losing systems the defending traffic will increase a lot. Or they will bleed systems. Thus, working as intended.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#430 - 2015-03-09 18:13:10 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
come on a corm sniping fleet :) and it will cure your doubts

ah yes the cormorant with its staggering 80-100km range



The PVE must be strong in you

you can hit to 110km with the corms for insta pop damage...and I would think that the mighty goons/CFC can field a huge fleet of perhaps 10 of them to kill ceptors...no?

Or is that beyond your PVP capabilities?

You seemed ok fielding 20+ celestis all the time to damp out fights ..so a few corms or any of th eother anti frig meta ships should be easy no?



cormorants have to arrive on grid and lock tiny interceptors before they can apply damage

whoops interceptors have dscan and see them coming from 14AU away
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#431 - 2015-03-09 18:13:32 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Because they can be countered by a T1 ewar frig that's even cheaper - so long as there's someone awake in local anyways.

edit: Anyone noticed that goons have to blob the forums to try and win their arguments?

you counter an interceptor at one capture node / sov structure and it just shrugs and goes to another one

nothing warps faster than an interceptor so enjoy spewing logarithmically increasing numbers of evemannen to bore out a single interceptor

I think you mean "Nothing warps faster than an interceptor using an entosis link that can't even start its warp for 2 minutes..."

And the fallacy is revealed...because pretty much everything other than a freighter can do that.

ah yes the situation where you use PSYCHIC POWERS to determine which system the interceptor plans on hitting before its entosis module cycles and allows it to exit system



Thats easily solved it you only own 1 system :) perhaps thats what you will have to do, if goons are incapable of the task to monitor more than one :)


1 system that can at best support 10 ratters hosting 40,000 pilots.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#432 - 2015-03-09 18:13:36 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
it's mostly the risk part that is the issue, generating logarithmically increasing amounts of work is much less defensible considering the stated aims of the sov revamp to break up existing holdings
logarithmically increasing amounts of work for larger areas of space you need to defend?

By Jove you've nearly got it.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#433 - 2015-03-09 18:16:19 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
it's mostly the risk part that is the issue, generating logarithmically increasing amounts of work is much less defensible considering the stated aims of the sov revamp to break up existing holdings
logarithmically increasing amounts of work for larger areas of space you need to defend?

By Jove you've nearly got it.

i'm plenty fine with this concept as long as the attacker is able to be caught and executed in a situation discounting serious pilot error

interceptors do not fit this category, and the fact that they can generate this logarithmically increasing amount of work at a minimum of cost and risk bodes much more poorly for the rest of eve than it does for us
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#434 - 2015-03-09 18:16:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


1 system that can at best support 10 ratters hosting 40,000 pilots.


I don't see what the other 120,000 of us are going to do if bat country's 40,000 pilots hog the anoms in the one system that we can manage to hold.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#435 - 2015-03-09 18:17:00 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:

see we are a Guerrilla force... we strike and move....strike and move... we dont bash our heads into your 30,000 man alliance head on.... why would we?

"we don't do pvp, because we always lose"

Just because they enjoy the game differently than your F1 monkeys doesn't mean they are doing it wrong. Blink
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#436 - 2015-03-09 18:17:14 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:

Deklin is a barren wasteland of empty useless space..where you could literally search for hours looking for targets outside of the main staging systems of the CFC and goons...and Deklin is the poster child for exactly what is wrong with the current SOV mechanics.

yeah sometimes you have to wait up to thirty minutes for a terrible membercorp to use the ya0 beacon
Arrendis
TK Corp
#437 - 2015-03-09 18:17:17 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Yep 2 preformed fleets trying to chase multiple inty gangs around 3 regions sounds exactly like the problem that you're trying to frame as other people's issue. Unless of course you can ban these evil ceptors and just wait at a couple of convenient bubble camped gates.

Now that'd be boringly easy to manage wouldn't it?


No, that's just Deklein home defense.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#438 - 2015-03-09 18:17:32 UTC
afkalt wrote:
You need to make who is using a link appear on the overview (like scrams/ewar to players do at the moment).

A purely "visual" effect will be impossible to get a hold of the right ship to target.


That's actually a great idea. An icon in the overview for ships with active entosis links.

Would be good if you had the option to add a UI override to make sure an otherwise not-visible ship shows up in the overview if they activate their link.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#439 - 2015-03-09 18:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Promiscuous Female wrote:
i'm plenty fine with this concept as long as the attacker is able to be caught and executed in a situation discounting serious pilot error

interceptors do not fit this category, and the fact that they can generate this logarithmically increasing amount of work at a minimum of cost and risk bodes much more poorly for the rest of eve than it does for us

An interceptor that CAN'T WARP OFF for 2 minutes - and that can be handed further penalties to sig radius, speed or MWD usage does fit that category.

Also google logarithmic versus linear - I thought you understood the difference but alas maybe not.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#440 - 2015-03-09 18:18:07 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:

see we are a Guerrilla force... we strike and move....strike and move... we dont bash our heads into your 30,000 man alliance head on.... why would we?

"we don't do pvp, because we always lose"

Just because they enjoy the game differently than your F1 monkeys doesn't mean they are doing it wrong. Blink

enjoying being camped into 5zxx by 15 chimeras long enough for them to jump clone back to empire is probably the weirdest fetish I have ever encountered in this crazy internet