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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Author
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#401 - 2015-03-09 18:01:03 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

This is where living in your space helps.

deklein is the most populous and densest region in eve with the best indexes so i am not sure where you are going with this

Ofc those players living there also have to be willing to defend...not just dockup their ratting ships and ask their landlords for a blob to form.

your lack of experience with goonswarm federation's SOP is showing
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Mordus Angels
#402 - 2015-03-09 18:01:10 UTC
Borachon wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:


Its ok..... you can stage out of X-70 and become"NPC trash" as well :)



Be careful what you wish for.

If this happens, basically every ihub iun the game will die within a month, and no one will put up new ones. Anomaly ratting will, as a result, die. If I was GSF leadership (thankfully I'm not), I would keep sov in one consteallation of station systems for industry bonuses and move all combat pilots to NPC nullsec. 5zxx, X-70, and N5y are about to get very full, while almost all of sov 0.0 would be completely empty.

And you think this is better?


PLEASE NO>>>>>> NOT THE Anomaly ratting!!!!! what will we do?

NO..not the IHUBS as well!!!!

all of 0.0 is already empty...do you ever fly in your own area ?..DEKLIN IS EMPTY SPACE!! we have to jump 15+ jumps to even find you guys to get any targets...

Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#403 - 2015-03-09 18:02:07 UTC
Deklein is empty space? Oh.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#404 - 2015-03-09 18:02:07 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Look, even if you don't believe the rail boats (and the better arty and beam boats) can make intys squish at 100+ (and they do), the Cerberus can be fit to hit past 140km with RLML.

I trust everyone here knows what RLML does to an inty? Cool

nothing as it effortlessly burns outside of that range due to dscan, warp deceleration, and crappy lock time on the smallest signature ship in the game
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#405 - 2015-03-09 18:02:28 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
your lack of experience with goonswarm federation's SOP is showing
I'm afraid it is, how long does a defence fleet take to form after the ping goes out?

And now 100 simultaneous pings across the whole of CFC space?

That sounds like a headache.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#406 - 2015-03-09 18:02:55 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
all of 0.0 is already empty...do you ever fly in your own area ?..DEKLIN IS EMPTY SPACE!! we have to jump 15+ jumps to even find you guys to get any targets...


no, you just camp the ya0 beacon and wait for stupid people

the fact that this occasionally takes a while is not descriptive of nullsec as a whole
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#407 - 2015-03-09 18:03:12 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
Corey Lean wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
The whole point is to end the sprawling wasteland of empty SOV space.... and this should do it. If a 30,000 man alliance cant have a few people with entosis ships on the standby to stop SOV attacks on thier structures then they dont deserve that space


No the point is about fights. Mr. Fozzie the the design goals and end-state of all these changes is to generate fights by controlling the grid through force of arms, not slippery petes or interceptors. So that should exclude the usual suspects from this conversation about sovereignty.




so come out and fight...it will be YOUR choice to defend YOUR space or not..... maybe you will have to PvP instead of ratting 24/7?

or perhaps you will be forced into 1-5 systems instead of who knows how many you guys "own" And i use the word "own" loosely as they are empty anyway. Forget the past...this is the new future....and it seems to be burning BRIGHT :)

What CCP needs to do..is tie POS/moon goo to SOV as well.... so it breaks your ISK control over the game :)


This is a misconception of the issue sov holders have with the proposed changes. My Alliance holds 51 systems of which half (26) have either a Station or an Outpost in them. These systems are held for a variety of reasons, be it jump bridges, moons, good ratting space or strategically important locations for potential wars. AU time zone is the quietest in Eve for the most part so let's say, for example, we have 80 people online during it. Late night Americans, a couple of good AU tz corps.

Under the proposed changes, each structure - TCU, iHUB or Station - can be hacked using the new module. Because a single Interceptor can contest our sov, we need 26 people to cover the Outposts, 51 people on the TCUs and 51 people on the iHubs. That's a total of 128 people needed online to secure our sovereignty. That's a bare minimum based upon one ship with one module attacking the structure. We're 48 men short on being able to protect it.

It isn't about choice. It isn't about whether we want to fight or hide in the station giving you blueballs, it's that under the proposed system, most alliances simply lack the man power available to protect their system. Because of the vulnerability window, this assumes the 80 people we have online are willing to do nothing in Eve ever but camp one of three structures night after night. How long before people bugger off and do something other than null sec? So the alliance ends up with no AU time zone so picks the next quietest one, for example, U.S. time zone. But 128 people in the U.S. time zone don't want to sit there night after night camping one of three structures so they all leave as well. And so on and so forth.

The proposal is ultimately self defeating.


You only have to defend the structure that is being attacked... A lone interceptor can only RF on structure at a time... A group of interceptors would simply require a similar group of defenders to respond. The main difference is that you can no longer wait hours for a more ideal formup and then attack with your full force, you have to act more quickly.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#408 - 2015-03-09 18:04:14 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Point being, your entire organization doesn't need to be trying to kill interceptors constantly, just devote the necessary number of ships to keep an Entosis point on your important stuff. If you can't do that, scale back a bit until you can.

the fact that we can easily do exactly this is immaterial to the point

The fact that your are complaining bitterly about the need to do this is very material to the point. Blink
Why would you care if others are unwilling to do so? That's not your problem.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Erasmus Grant
Un4seen Development
Sev3rance
#409 - 2015-03-09 18:04:26 UTC
Borachon wrote:
The biggest concern with trollceptors seems to be the extreme long range on T2 entosis links. I understand wanting a long-range link for things like sniper doctrines, but I don't see why you're doing this with the T1/T2 distinction.

Instead, why not have S/M/L/XL entosis links with ranges similar to S/M/L/XL long range weapons? The T1/T2 variants would then mostly impact cycle times. This gives you more room to use the module tools at your disposal to tweak usage. It does potentially complicate the loot table of drifter battleships, however.


I do not think it is extreme if it is a supercap and would make a nice battle space. You would have a nice sub capital smash between them and the structure.
Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#410 - 2015-03-09 18:04:40 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
your lack of experience with goonswarm federation's SOP is showing
I'm afraid it is, how long does a defence fleet take to form after the ping goes out?

And now 100 simultaneous pings across the whole of CFC space?

That sounds like a headache.


Shhh, we don't discuss our secret pinging structures.

Invade us please. There's no way we can respond.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"

Jhonny Napalm
Blaster Diplomacy
#411 - 2015-03-09 18:05:04 UTC
There are so many things wrong with this whole thing.

You've spent so much energy and resources to SIMPLIFY the game for a new generation of players but now you've just gone and shat on that with all this.

Take two steps back and look at the board, take a few breaths

This is so bloody complicated and messy...jesus...
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#412 - 2015-03-09 18:05:09 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
your lack of experience with goonswarm federation's SOP is showing
I'm afraid it is, how long does a defence fleet take to form after the ping goes out?

And now 100 simultaneous pings across the whole of CFC space?

That sounds like a headache.


After the pings? Depends on the time of day and what else is going on. Maybe 5-10m.

Before the pings, though... Welcome to the JU- standing fleet and Theta Squad.

There's always a fleet pre-formed. Sometimes, other fleets form up to run around chasing people, too.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#413 - 2015-03-09 18:05:29 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
your lack of experience with goonswarm federation's SOP is showing
I'm afraid it is, how long does a defence fleet take to form after the ping goes out?

And now 100 simultaneous pings across the whole of CFC space?

That sounds like a headache.

nah, you'd switch to a proactive rather than reactive defense force in the case of fozziesov going in as currently described

right now deklein home defense is limited to skirmish commanders who want to drive people out so they can rat in peace due to roaming gangs doing precisely bupkis to our space
Princess Cherista
Doomheim
#414 - 2015-03-09 18:07:01 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Look, even if you don't believe the rail boats (and the better arty and beam boats) can make intys squish at 100+ (and they do), the Cerberus can be fit to hit past 140km with RLML.

I trust everyone here knows what RLML does to an inty? Cool

nothing as it effortlessly burns outside of that range due to dscan, warp deceleration, and crappy lock time on the smallest signature ship in the game


All these people saying the trollceptor is fine and easily counterable are working under the assumption that these guys are gonna sit there on grid and activate their sov laser.

THATS NOT HOW IT WORKS

The whole point of these coward tactics and no-commit fits is to zip around through bubbles (lol constellation control) and go where the enemy IS NOT. Then ref something. Wow no fight there. Generate dozens of timers and go to the one that nobody shows up to, wow another non-fight. See a pattern?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#415 - 2015-03-09 18:07:03 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

So.... your area of control shrinks to something manageable and the downside is that you get lots more good fights close to home with people you've likely never seen before?

we don't get fights with enemies in interceptors, a ship designed so you never have to take a fight you might lose

You do when you go to take someone elses sov... that is unless you really don't want good fights and prefer to use troll ceptors instead. But if you do that, you didn't want a good fight to begin with now, did you? Big smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#416 - 2015-03-09 18:07:04 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Point being, your entire organization doesn't need to be trying to kill interceptors constantly, just devote the necessary number of ships to keep an Entosis point on your important stuff. If you can't do that, scale back a bit until you can.

the fact that we can easily do exactly this is immaterial to the point

The fact that your are complaining bitterly about the need to do this is very material to the point. Blink
Why would you care if others are unwilling to do so? That's not your problem.

because if we can reduce the headache for us and make the system actually livable for people who are not us we achieve what we in the biz like to call "objective benefit"

we can occasionally get what we want without it necessarily coming at the expense of everyone else, weird as it is to see written
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#417 - 2015-03-09 18:07:12 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Look, even if you don't believe the rail boats (and the better arty and beam boats) can make intys squish at 100+ (and they do), the Cerberus can be fit to hit past 140km with RLML.

I trust everyone here knows what RLML does to an inty? Cool

nothing as it effortlessly burns outside of that range due to dscan, warp deceleration, and crappy lock time on the smallest signature ship in the game

If it burns out of range, the entosis link deactivates, you win.

Cerberus with 137km RLML Range (I lied it isn't 140, my bad lol):
https://o.smium.org/new/5916218721826766848#modules,search

Getting an inty to even lock past 137km is no small feat, but even THAT doesnt matter. Also, any decent rail boat (eagle, tengu, naga) will apply dps effectively well past that.

The zomg-trollceptor crowd needs to stop being bad.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#418 - 2015-03-09 18:07:54 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
your lack of experience with goonswarm federation's SOP is showing
I'm afraid it is, how long does a defence fleet take to form after the ping goes out?

And now 100 simultaneous pings across the whole of CFC space?

That sounds like a headache.


After the pings? Depends on the time of day and what else is going on. Maybe 5-10m.

Before the pings, though... Welcome to the JU- standing fleet and Theta Squad.

There's always a fleet pre-formed. Sometimes, other fleets form up to run around chasing people, too.

Yep 2 preformed fleets trying to chase multiple inty gangs around 3 regions sounds exactly like the problem that you're trying to frame as other people's issue. Unless of course you can ban these evil ceptors and just wait at a couple of convenient bubble camped gates.

Now that'd be boringly easy to manage wouldn't it?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Mordus Angels
#419 - 2015-03-09 18:08:12 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

This is where living in your space helps.

deklein is the most populous and densest region in eve with the best indexes so i am not sure where you are going with this



Deklin is a barren wasteland of empty useless space..where you could literally search for hours looking for targets outside of the main staging systems of the CFC and goons...and Deklin is the poster child for exactly what is wrong with the current SOV mechanics.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#420 - 2015-03-09 18:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Torei Dutalis
I think the main issue with the t2 link is the rather extreme range it has. 100km seems much more reasonable (and honestly 28km for the t1 makes more sense as that is the range of a heated point). A 100km engagement envelope is more than reasonable and puts any really "trolly" things into a range they should be easy to deal with.

Of course this is all ignoring the fact that all it takes to counter any number of "troll" ships is one entosis link of your own. When you think about it, assuming the occupancy bonuses roll over from current ownership most important/lived in systems are going to have a level 5 military and level 5 strategic bonus which amounts to a 27.5 minute timer which is more than enough time to respond to a lone "troll" ship.

Of course then there is the point that interceptors are not really the issue. There are plenty of ships that can be fit in a similar manner. 10mn mwd t3 destroyers come to mind. Interceptors do have the rather important distinction of being interdiction nullified, but any "super fast" ships have the potential to perform the same kind of shenanigans.

All in all I do think a range reduction on the module is in order, but aside from that I think there is an extraordinarily large amount of doom and gloom is being thrown around. People who have been a part of FW will be familiar with somewhat similar plex mechanics. Of course you don't need to lock the beacon in FW, but holding the field is the name of the game.