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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3921 - 2015-03-19 11:27:42 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:
Sgt Ocker

How thick are you?

Numbers SHOULD ALWAYS have a edge. If fleet 1 has 50 and fleet 2 has 75 and both in identical ships, skills and FC, the bigger should ALWAYS win. However the skills and tactiques will somewhat even the odds up.

atm. we are in a situation, that once the 500 or so big blob has arrived, the tactiques and skills dont matter if you are in the 100 fleet. You will loose. Now, lets take the new fountain war as an example. N3+BL are able to get maybe 500ish dudes to fleet and goons maybe 1k. Now, N3+BL have their 500 dudes in atleast 4 different fleets, where goons have their 1k in 4 different fleets. Banging head on on one grid the 500 men will loose. Now spilt the objectives up to 5 different systems and we have a totally different scenario all of sudden. N3 having 4 125 man fleets and goons 4 250 fleets in four different places. Even the odds are still 1:2 it's totally takeable to fight with 125 dudes vs 250 dudes. Especially when taking to concideration, that CFC superstar FC's wont be in all systems simultaneousily doing the fleets, where n3+bl have a way bigger FC pool.

And no, the Entosis link is as it's best, if it can be fitted on literally anything. Limiting it to warfare links is just an artificial border.

and ps. Please CCP give us destructable stations. Really badly needed. We are almost having a station on half of the null systems already. Most of whitch are totally unused or used by few lads building something there. DESTRUCTABLE STATIONS!
Name calling? Seems you ran out of any decent argument and had to resort to childish behaviour. Trying to compare what is happening today in nul to how the new system is likely to play out, is like trying to compare it to how it was 10 years ago. To be honest, BL found a lightly defended section of space controlled by an alliance that has enough internal problems to sink the titanic and decided to capitalize by invading. More power to them, that is what sov wars should be, not a series of mini games.

Yes larger numbers should always win but your analogy is far from what i am talking about.. Again you skimmed and responded to what you thought I wrote and missed the point completely. (You seem to be good at doing that)
My proposal removes, to a point the ability of a coalition to just steamroll a smaller alliance.
It makes the Entosis link a command module, as that is what it will be (the most powerful command module in the game). The criteria for its use should be meaningful. Not some throw away module on a throw away ship.

Your in a 700 man alliance, who do you think the targets will be for the mega coalitions, with thousands of bored members, when these changes go live?
Coalitions like Goons/CFC, BL/N3 or an alliance like TRI?

CCP has an opportunity here to make a difference to how large groups interact with others. If your too thick to understand what I am trying to convey, then maybe it is better CCP don't bother listening to players and these feedback threads stay simple lip service.

If you believe the scenario you painted of BL/N3 vs CFC you are deluded. What makes you think the CFC is only going to field 4 X 250 man fleets? BL/N3 aren't stupid and isn't going to go on the offensive until they have the numbers. Or more likely, they just won't fight each other at all on any large enough scale to risk losing anything worthwhile.

And if you honestly believe the Entosis link should be allowed to be the ultimate troll module and introduced as it is proposed, then i would start packing for your alliances move back to lowsec.

Destructible stations and ease of proposed RF mechanic, which would lead to destruction - You would soon end up with only the biggest groups owning stations and everyone else living in pos's or npc nul. Loads more undesirable sov systems sounds like just the ticket to get smaller groups into nul.
Does your alliance have 80 to 100 bil laying around to replace a station when you lose it? The way the mechanic is proposed, no-one has to take your sov, just camp your station and keep it RF'd. Make them destructible and you can keep your sov on the backside of nul, you just won't have a station to live in.
Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

Yes I am aware TRI is a small griefing alliance and the module as it is may suit your play style well. Until it is used against you that is, then you simply have everything to lose.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3922 - 2015-03-19 11:47:51 UTC
VolatileVoid wrote:
Ugly Eric wrote:

and ps. Please CCP give us destructable stations. Really badly needed. We are almost having a station on half of the null systems already. Most of whitch are totally unused or used by few lads building something there. DESTRUCTABLE STATIONS!


Infact we need destroyable stations.
If we don't want the freeport we need to destroy the own station by ourself.


Destructible stations will be the final nail in the coffin for sovereign space outside of the largest blobs.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#3923 - 2015-03-19 11:58:38 UTC
The real sov system:
The owner of a system is the corp that has the most activity and pays the ccp tax.

Advantages:
This system is easy to understand and easy to modify.
This will move many highsec corp's into null. Even more if you push the low systems.
Provide a way for weekend and part time player to live in null.
Remove the need of 1000+ battles (including supercapitals).
Remove renting fee's.
Remove the 'blue donut'.
Bring back industry to null (because of more customers).
The larger group will win only if they intend to live in the target systems.
Bring thousands of possible targets into null.
Make eve attractive for new and newborn player. They won't hear 'don't go to null' all the time if they ask in helpchat.

Disadvantages:
Remove the need of 1000+ battles (including supercapitals).

Btw. converting every sov null into npc null would be by far better than this sov phase 2.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#3924 - 2015-03-19 14:19:14 UTC
Some updates on null-sec from Fozzie's fanfest presentation:


  • Volume of ihubs and upgrades will be dramatically reduced, with most fitting into a DST (although strategic upgrades will be 200k)
  • Structures can be launched from Fleet Hangars (yay DSTs)
  • There will be blueprints for ihub upgrades, allowing them to be built in null-sec
  • New null-sec only ores to produce a better balance of minerals
  • The military index will decay faster, and the Industry index will decay much more slowly.


All these are changes are due in the April 28 patch.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3925 - 2015-03-19 17:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
xttz wrote:
Some updates on null-sec from Fozzie's fanfest presentation:


  • Volume of ihubs and upgrades will be dramatically reduced, with most fitting into a DST (although strategic upgrades will be 200k)
  • Structures can be launched from Fleet Hangars (yay DSTs)
  • There will be blueprints for ihub upgrades, allowing them to be built in null-sec
  • New null-sec only ores to produce a better balance of minerals
  • The military index will decay faster, and the Industry index will decay much more slowly.


All these are changes are due in the April 28 patch.

Good old Fozzie - Breaking Eve 1 patch at a time.

Matters little how fast or slowly the indexes decay, when the only available space (that the large coalitions don't want because it holds no value) won't be able to get them to start with.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3926 - 2015-03-19 18:27:55 UTC
xttz wrote:
Some updates on null-sec from Fozzie's fanfest presentation:


  • Volume of ihubs and upgrades will be dramatically reduced, with most fitting into a DST (although strategic upgrades will be 200k)
  • Structures can be launched from Fleet Hangars (yay DSTs)
  • There will be blueprints for ihub upgrades, allowing them to be built in null-sec
  • New null-sec only ores to produce a better balance of minerals
  • The military index will decay faster, and the Industry index will decay much more slowly.


All these are changes are due in the April 28 patch.


Thank you for posting some updates.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#3927 - 2015-03-19 19:32:10 UTC
anyone have a link to the video?
VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#3928 - 2015-03-19 19:54:28 UTC
Rowells wrote:
anyone have a link to the video?


http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/EVE%20Online

there you will find it

and it seems that ccp really needs this sh... sov system for further development.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3929 - 2015-03-19 23:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
VolatileVoid wrote:
Rowells wrote:
anyone have a link to the video?


http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/EVE%20Online

there you will find it

and it seems that ccp really needs this sh... sov system for further development.

This isn't a full replay?
It seems to start in the middle of CCP plugging out of game paraphernalia.
Which I believe occurred after the keynote presentations.

.,.Would have been so much better without the TS commentary so you could hear what presenters were saying.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3930 - 2015-03-19 23:27:14 UTC
If you want to watch the keynote without background commentary;

Keynote from CCP TV

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Jobbered
Lost Legion Of Death
Help Newbes Find a Way Alliance
#3931 - 2015-03-20 04:41:59 UTC
That is 2014 Keynote
Ereilian
Doomheim
#3932 - 2015-03-20 19:53:26 UTC
xttz wrote:
Some updates on null-sec from Fozzie's fanfest presentation:


  • Volume of ihubs and upgrades will be dramatically reduced, with most fitting into a DST (although strategic upgrades will be 200k)
  • Structures can be launched from Fleet Hangars (yay DSTs)
  • There will be blueprints for ihub upgrades, allowing them to be built in null-sec
  • New null-sec only ores to produce a better balance of minerals
  • The military index will decay faster, and the Industry index will decay much more slowly.


All these are changes are due in the April 28 patch.


Interesting.

Mining buff is way overdue, time to see those highsec mining bears screaming a little. I actually cannot find fault there Fozzie.
Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#3933 - 2015-03-21 01:25:55 UTC
Rowells wrote:
anyone have a link to the video?


Day 1 replay is here: http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/638754943
Day 2 replay is here: http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/639159817

Check the stream schedule at the bottom of the main CCP Twitch page (http://www.twitch.tv/ccp) to find approximate time stamps for the various streams.

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

Free weekly public roams & monthly NewBro new player roams!

Visit Redemption Road or join mailing list REDEMPTION ROAMS for information

Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3934 - 2015-03-21 06:14:42 UTC
Ereilian wrote:
xttz wrote:
Some updates on null-sec from Fozzie's fanfest presentation:


  • Volume of ihubs and upgrades will be dramatically reduced, with most fitting into a DST (although strategic upgrades will be 200k)
  • Structures can be launched from Fleet Hangars (yay DSTs)
  • There will be blueprints for ihub upgrades, allowing them to be built in null-sec
  • New null-sec only ores to produce a better balance of minerals
  • The military index will decay faster, and the Industry index will decay much more slowly.


All these are changes are due in the April 28 patch.


Interesting.

Mining buff is way overdue, time to see those highsec mining bears screaming a little. I actually cannot find fault there Fozzie.


Sites still warpable by anyone with a pulse, hide them behind an ~effort~ wall like they were pre-Oddessy and I might be impressed. Not a second before.
Praddy
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3935 - 2015-03-21 09:44:10 UTC
The main problem which I see is that CCP attempts to introduce a fundamental change to one of the basic basic principles of the game paly. I am not saying it is bad. I am saying that it is too massive and sudden. Most, if not all of the players in Eve will have difficult time coping with it. And given that Eve has introduced too many changes during less than 6 months, not giving everyone sufficient time to adjust, this new change delivers additional stress to everybody. The stress that nobody really wants or needs.

I have no doubt, that yes, Sov system does need some adjustments. But do it carefully. There were many years of gameplay, when this system was mostly intact, and most of the Corporations and players got used to it. Chagin geverything at once - this looks like a very stupid idea. Do you really want to create a havoc in Eve universe? You are very close to it.

I propose to completely revisit the concept of introducing the change. Make it a step-by-step process, and extend it to at least a year. And keep on with wide discussion on planning and results of every step. And have guts to make a reverse, if you see that something completely bad goes on. Reverse it BEFORE the consequences of your change are beyond the point of non-return.

And as a bottom line, on a personal side, I don't like and I don't support this change, in a way it is introduced to us now. I guess I am not the only one.
Praddy
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3936 - 2015-03-21 11:15:34 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Can we just bring back the POS grind? I miss the POS grind. Lets just go with POS grind and call it even.

How about we just ******* trash the idea of sov rebalance altogether. It's broken, but what was worse about it was the fact that nobody wanted to do it anymore while CCP held the impending rebalance over our heads for the past 2-3 years.


I think this is the best thing to do. Drop this stupid idea, period.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3937 - 2015-03-21 21:12:36 UTC
Praddy wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Can we just bring back the POS grind? I miss the POS grind. Lets just go with POS grind and call it even.

How about we just ******* trash the idea of sov rebalance altogether. It's broken, but what was worse about it was the fact that nobody wanted to do it anymore while CCP held the impending rebalance over our heads for the past 2-3 years.


I think this is the best thing to do. Drop this stupid idea, period.



Too much pride has been invested in it for them to drop it.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3938 - 2015-03-22 00:20:25 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Praddy wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Can we just bring back the POS grind? I miss the POS grind. Lets just go with POS grind and call it even.

How about we just ******* trash the idea of sov rebalance altogether. It's broken, but what was worse about it was the fact that nobody wanted to do it anymore while CCP held the impending rebalance over our heads for the past 2-3 years.


I think this is the best thing to do. Drop this stupid idea, period.



Too much pride has been invested in it for them to drop it.

This isn't about pride (maybe it is a bit), it is about try to keep an ever diminishing player base coming back and logging in and finding the 2 in every 100 to signup that stay longer than a couple of months.

Instead of turning Sov Nul into a part of New Eden that is driven by wars and ongoing conflict, they decided to go the opposite way and encourage large groups to get larger by introducing a sov system that is broken into multiple mini games which will require multiple fleets to maintain.

Any group not aligned with one of the large coalitions will only have sov as long as the large coalitions allow them to (large groups of bored members will make short work of any small unaligned group). We might even see new coalitions form as time goes on but with the ability to move about in nulsec limited by jump range and already established blue networks any new group trying to enter into the sov mini game will find the barriers to entry out way any possible benefits.

It is pretty much a requirement for an alliance to hold at least one station to maintain sov but with no way for smaller groups to defend their stations and the ease with which they can be disabled. CCP just broke the most fundamental part of living in sov nul.

They have not met their stated goals and if the proposed sov changes are implemented in their current form, CCP has just lied to players (again) by stating goals they have no intention of meeting.

My remaining paid subs expire in 3 months, at this stage I can't see the need to renew them.
When a company employs people who will stand up in front of a live audience and lie to them, it is time to decide whether that company is worth dealing with.
Fozzie, can't tell the difference between a Tengu and a Rokh and uses one to show the attributes of the other. How can players trust someone who continues to "balance" things to suit his friends. Game balance isn't a popularity quest and as long as Fozzie continues to change eve to suit friends it will continue to be less and less playable for everyone else.


Players don't need to find ways to break eve, there are a few devs (encouraged by "friends") doing it for them.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Starry Enigma
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3939 - 2015-03-22 00:43:58 UTC
If you are really going to make all these new changes, why not just make a new game?
We keep our skills and isk and stuff and join that new game.
See how many people join that.
And see how many don't join that.

Tweaking here and there is fine, but the proposal is revamping this game.
I'm personally against this.
flakeys
Doomheim
#3940 - 2015-03-22 07:01:17 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:



Instead of turning Sov Nul into a part of New Eden that is driven by wars and ongoing conflict, they decided to go the opposite way and encourage large groups to get larger by introducing a sov system that is broken into multiple mini games which will require multiple fleets to maintain.

Any group not aligned with one of the large coalitions will only have sov as long as the large coalitions allow them to (large groups of bored members will make short work of any small unaligned group). We might even see new coalitions form as time goes on but with the ability to move about in nulsec limited by jump range and already established blue networks any new group trying to enter into the sov mini game will find the barriers to entry out way any possible benefits.





Yup TOTALLY not like how it has been for the last years , nope totally not.

I said it before , as long as you do not change the numbersgame you won't change the endresult.

As the French saying goes : plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose . Translated it means that the more things change, the more they stay the same.


It is normal that the biggest force has the upperhand a lot of the times but the amount of people we have been throwing on one bunch the last years is just ridiculous.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.