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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2401 - 2015-03-05 14:44:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Afraid not. Read the blog and the flow charts again, without adding your own parts or making bits up.


You first.

It does not mention the circumstance I am discussing. It says "in fights over an owned structure", indicating a fleet fight in progress. It then goes on to say that the ally force will not be able to add their own Entosis to the mix to try and help their ally by stopping the attacker's progress.

It does not say what happens if some solo trollceptor tries, gets blapped before he finishes, and I just leave.

And what I'm saying is that is should immediately reset or begin ticking down once any attackers using Entosis mods are dead.

If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset. A slow tick down that could be accelerated by a defensive link seems do-able - it still requires the defenders to arrive and deter the attackers but means that a troll fleet could be more easily ignored.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2402 - 2015-03-05 14:46:20 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset. A slow tick down that could be accelerated by a defensive link seems do-able - it still requires the defenders to arrive and deter the attackers but means that a troll fleet could be more easily ignored.


Actually it quite explicitly says what it does in the situation of no links active and what then happens at the end of the prime time window if the item is not under full control.

That is - no links from either side: Paused. Contested at window end: Remains vulnerable until a conclusion is reached.
Terence Bogard
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2403 - 2015-03-05 14:46:56 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Afraid not. Read the blog and the flow charts again, without adding your own parts or making bits up.


You first.

It does not mention the circumstance I am discussing. It says "in fights over an owned structure", indicating a fleet fight in progress. It then goes on to say that the ally force will not be able to add their own Entosis to the mix to try and help their ally by stopping the attacker's progress.

It does not say what happens if some solo trollceptor tries, gets blapped before he finishes, and I just leave.

And what I'm saying is that is should immediately reset or begin ticking down once any attackers using Entosis mods are dead.

If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset. A slow tick down that could be accelerated by a defensive link seems do-able - it still requires the defenders to arrive and deter the attackers but means that a troll fleet could be more easily ignored.


QFT I am in support of a slow regen but a reset is out of the question, as the long as the fight goes on the timer should stay down, links or not, and that completely rules out any full resets.
AlexKent
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#2404 - 2015-03-05 14:47:50 UTC
Can we please go back to pointing out the advantages of living in null after these changes?

I can't see any in this current form.

Ratting makes the same as mission running in high-sec. Less than FW. Way less than incursions. Trivially less than wormholes.

Mining makes about the same as high-sec if you factor in the risks.

Building supers - no reason to own one they are useless.

Moons can be farmed without holding sov, they will have the same mechanics.



So, what reason is there to live in null for an alliance? Why invest in your space?
Agent Known
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2405 - 2015-03-05 14:48:34 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Afraid not. Read the blog and the flow charts again, without adding your own parts or making bits up.


You first.

It does not mention the circumstance I am discussing. It says "in fights over an owned structure", indicating a fleet fight in progress. It then goes on to say that the ally force will not be able to add their own Entosis to the mix to try and help their ally by stopping the attacker's progress.

It does not say what happens if some solo trollceptor tries, gets blapped before he finishes, and I just leave.

And what I'm saying is that is should immediately reset or begin ticking down once any attackers using Entosis mods are dead.

If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset. A slow tick down that could be accelerated by a defensive link seems do-able - it still requires the defenders to arrive and deter the attackers but means that a troll fleet could be more easily ignored.


It's a "hard reset" if the link does not make its first cycle because the capture progress doesn't start until after it cycles once.

This is why the "drop a triage carrier to do the second cycle" idea won't work. The carrier would have to wait out its first cycle before it started having any effect to begin with.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2406 - 2015-03-05 14:48:43 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Can be made in an even more elegant solution. Just make it use enough cap that a frigate will nto be able to keep a Prop mod on while using it. But for a cruiser that will not be a problem... and even less for larger ships.


Nope, wouldn't work.

It's on a long cycle time, and it only needs to work once. It would be just as binary, either the frigate would not have enough cap to activate it in the first place, or it would.


You could probably cap out an inty with the T2 mod since it's cycle time is shorter than your entire cap pool regen rate. Especially with a prop mod running.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2407 - 2015-03-05 14:48:46 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:

I only had 2011 figures to work with but the R64s are worth somethign like 7 trillion a month.

WTB your ice mining ship


Jesus, dude. 2011? Do you have any idea how much moon mining has changed since then? 7 Trillion? Whatever you're on you need to share because that's some seriously good ****. Below are the current net values per month (Jita prices for goo and fuel, rounded to 3 digits) for every moon goo using only a Gallente small extraction tower, not including transport costs:


  • Atmospheric Gases: -100M
  • Evaporite Deposits: 641k
  • Hydrocarbons: -95.1M
  • Silicates: -51.4M
  • Cobalt: 27.7M
  • Scandium: 103M
  • Titanium: 31.4M
  • Tungsten: -54.9M
  • Cadmium: 1.00B
  • Chromium: 261M
  • Platinum: 184M
  • Vanadium: 185M
  • Caesium: 421M
  • Hafnium: 694M
  • Mercury: 302M
  • Technetium: 637M
  • Dysprosium: 6.27B
  • Neodymium: 1.83B
  • Promethium: 2.05B
  • Thulium: 1.77B

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#2408 - 2015-03-05 14:48:58 UTC
Welcome to eveafkcloakycamping online.

Going thru with this until afk clocky camping is solved will kill all the point of living in nullsec.
I mean, I'm still gonna be doing pew there, but since disruption is going to be a major thing, we will see easily over 20x rise in afk cloaky camping.

My thoughts on issue are simple: afk cloaky camping is 100% disruption of any non-deadspace activity in a system. Trolls and stupids can argue on that, they are going to be ignored anyway, as long there is no way to survive hotdrop other than not undocking, it'll be that way.

So, every system in a "targeted" region is going to have an afk cloaker in it, there is no meaningful defense against it, thus we can assume ratings are always 0-1 and don't mean anything anyway, as it takes just 1 afk cloaker to make them decay to nothing.

Next major thing is a permanent 4 hours long CTA every day with no weekend or vacation. As if current ones weren't disgusting enough.

Industry rating is about an order of magnitude harder to get and maintain. I couldn't imagine why it got the same influence as military rating (which is a total joke, a week ago just 2 dudes bumped it from 3 to 5 in one evening right before my eyes, while watching a movie), until I saw it's Fozzie who's responsible for this, and it kinda made sense - every time this pile of Fozzie touches some part of industry, the said part takes a nosedive, sometimes into non-existence.

Also, industry rating is an order of magnitude easier to disrupt as well, since barges all barges but 2 are completely defenseless, and both of the 2 are pretty much nonviable in mining (thanks to Fozzie as well, of course).

Overall this might be making eve more of an eve, but nullsec is going to lose a lot of population with this. It is a SPECTACULAR failure to shake the blue donut, while areas which already have too much pew going on are going to get even harsher.

If this goes through like this, see me afk cloaking in Deklein. With one account, the rest become useless, unless I move into hisec with them to have at least some way to make ISK in its nerfed state.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#2409 - 2015-03-05 14:49:23 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Eli Apol wrote:
Terence Bogard wrote:
I think we need a CCP release of all of the moons class and locations. I never had to worry about them before because i had no chance of even thinking about owning one, but now...

I went on an old 2011 article saying about 10b / R64 / month and dotlan saying about 700 moons of that type.

Obviously the real figures are obfuscated by those owning them and controlling the prices of the products - I'd love to know how our CODE friend has any idea what he's talking about, last I checked they didn't need an untanked exhumer near them so he probably doesn't even know they exist.


firstly no, put the work in finding moon locations like every one else, plus theres many publicly available sources and methods to finding out locations of these so go figure.

secondly a 4 year old article pre-tech nerf and pre-moon rebalancing is quite possibly the worst piece of evidence to formulate an idea of their worth in a game where financial markets and pricings eb and flow with both the current political and militaristic landscape of new eden.

an r64 is not worth 10b a month currently. Those figures were based on price gauging due to artificial stemming of resource flow into the markets. Go research how much r64 material a POS can pull off a moon per hour, the multiply that by 24, and then by 31 and then by the current cost of said material on market in highsec.

But then, and this is the important bit... subtract the POS's Fuel cost for a whole month to get the real figure.
Thats not including the initial cost of the POS and its mods itself, as well as the JF fuel u burn hauling the materials away and refueling the POS each month too, or the time its spent in reinforced not mining anything.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2410 - 2015-03-05 14:49:28 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Afraid not. Read the blog and the flow charts again, without adding your own parts or making bits up.


You first.

It does not mention the circumstance I am discussing. It says "in fights over an owned structure", indicating a fleet fight in progress. It then goes on to say that the ally force will not be able to add their own Entosis to the mix to try and help their ally by stopping the attacker's progress.

It does not say what happens if some solo trollceptor tries, gets blapped before he finishes, and I just leave.

And what I'm saying is that is should immediately reset or begin ticking down once any attackers using Entosis mods are dead.

If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset. A slow tick down that could be accelerated by a defensive link seems do-able - it still requires the defenders to arrive and deter the attackers but means that a troll fleet could be more easily ignored.


The important concept very clearly stated by fozzie was that defenders were responsible for defending. Having enemy ships killed by a blue friend, does not satisfy this requirement. So under such circumstances, it should not be expected that there is any unwinding of the timer at all until a defender is present in some form or another.
How simple or trivial the work involved in resetting it , by the defender, is of course open to discussion.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2411 - 2015-03-05 14:49:45 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:

If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset.


See, I fail to see the issue with that. If you aren't willing to fight the defenders for it, you don't belong there in the first place. I do not believe that anyone should be able to troll their way into sov just by vomiting enough interceptors at somebody. And I don't believe that is the intended purpose of this system, either.


Quote:

A slow tick down that could be accelerated by a defensive link seems do-able - it still requires the defenders to arrive and deter the attackers but means that a troll fleet could be more easily ignored.


Like I said earlier, this is also fine. If the attackers fail to complete a cycle and do not return to finish the job, they should get nothing more than the Wonka bonus prize.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2412 - 2015-03-05 14:50:19 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset. A slow tick down that could be accelerated by a defensive link seems do-able - it still requires the defenders to arrive and deter the attackers but means that a troll fleet could be more easily ignored.


Actually it quite explicitly says what it does in the situation of no links active and what then happens at the end of the prime time window if the item is not under full control.

That is - no links from either side: Paused. Contested at window end: Remains vulnerable until a conclusion is reached.

Yep I'm aware of how it works currently - I wouldn't be averse to a slow tick down (maybe half or quarter speed) in the defences favour if NO links are left on it (1 link each still results in a pause)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2413 - 2015-03-05 14:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Grookshank
Dear CCP Fozzie,

with all the changes you want to make to the sov mechanics, can you please not forget that there needs to be a balance between the effort it requires to take sov, the effort to defend it and the incentive to live in it?

There have already been a lot of points made about the fitting requirements for the entosis module, the time it takes to reinforce a structure and the effort it takes to stop a defensive timer from going up. While the current sov mechanics hugely favour the defender - which I agree is bad - the proposed changes, as the current numbers stand, hugely favour the attacker. Currently the attacker needs to put in a great amount of effort to even start an attack, which serves as a natural protection in form of "can't be arsed to grind those things" defense. Your proposed switch might change that to a "can't be arsed to defend that" feeling for the sov holders.

Which leads me to my second point: the balance between the effort to defend sov and the incentive to live in it. As part of BRAVE, living in a - let me say it carefully - not so rich space, we enjoy the content we provide for our neighbours, deployed visitors and WH dwellers that randomly pop out here and - last but not least - we also enjoy the content for ourself and our coalition partners. The amount of nullsec content we provide was already mentioned on the "Where we stand blog". There is a point though, where we probably will not be able and/or willing to provide said content. So while your proposed changes seem to aim for more dynamic sov battles - i.e. making attacking sov more easily accessible - please consider that there needs to be a reason to defend it, too.

Sadly there were no signs of any changes to the benefits of holding sov in the devblog; just a short mention of "could be done at a later date". That is frankly not enough if the proposed changes go through and attackers can just reinforce and force defense "for the lulz". Currently an attack is effort of a kind that the attacker is relatively likely to follow up on the reinforcement timers he creates. In the future I see timers poping up from random parties and other random parties taking the opportunity to finish them. That does not seem like a resonable risk/reward relationship.

Kind Regards
One of the 38,1%
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2414 - 2015-03-05 14:51:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset.


See, I fail to see the issue with that. If you aren't willing to fight the defenders for it, you don't belong there in the first place. I do not believe that anyone should be able to troll their way into sov just by vomiting enough interceptors at somebody. And I don't believe that is the intended purpose of this system, either.


A hard reset means you just suicide a group of ewar frigs against them every 40 minutes and restart the whole process. Definitely not.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2415 - 2015-03-05 14:53:43 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset. A slow tick down that could be accelerated by a defensive link seems do-able - it still requires the defenders to arrive and deter the attackers but means that a troll fleet could be more easily ignored.


Actually it quite explicitly says what it does in the situation of no links active and what then happens at the end of the prime time window if the item is not under full control.

That is - no links from either side: Paused. Contested at window end: Remains vulnerable until a conclusion is reached.

Yep I'm aware of how it works currently - I wouldn't be averse to a slow tick down (maybe half or quarter speed) in the defences favour if NO links are left on it (1 link each still results in a pause)


I've still not seen a reason that owners should not have to take action though. Is 9.9 minutes of their day really too much? No-one is asking them to spend hours per object. Hell, use a cynoalt with a T1 link.

I don't think asking guys to spend less than 10 minutes is wholly unreasonable to secure a SOV structure.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2416 - 2015-03-05 14:54:25 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:

A hard reset means you just suicide a group of ewar frigs against them every 40 minutes and restart the whole process. Definitely not.


*shrugs*

I fail to see why anyone would think that the burden of effort is intended to be completely removed from the attacker.

If this doesn't end up with a timer or reset, I'll be very surprised.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2417 - 2015-03-05 14:56:51 UTC
afkalt wrote:

I've still not seen a reason that owners should not have to take action though.


They are. That's why the attacker is dead.

I have still not seen a reason why you think the attacker's influence should remain even after they totally failed a reinforce attempts.


Quote:
No-one is asking them to spend hours per object.


That's actually exactly what you're asking them to do. Either defend the TCU 24/7, or come back for four hours per structure every day forever.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#2418 - 2015-03-05 14:57:44 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
If it immediately hard resets then suddenly falcon screws up absolutely EVERY capture attempt whether by trollceptors or battleships (exception for ewar immune marauders and caps) So definitely not a hard reset. A slow tick down that could be accelerated by a defensive link seems do-able - it still requires the defenders to arrive and deter the attackers but means that a troll fleet could be more easily ignored.


Actually it quite explicitly says what it does in the situation of no links active and what then happens at the end of the prime time window if the item is not under full control.

That is - no links from either side: Paused. Contested at window end: Remains vulnerable until a conclusion is reached.

Yep I'm aware of how it works currently - I wouldn't be averse to a slow tick down (maybe half or quarter speed) in the defences favour if NO links are left on it (1 link each still results in a pause)


I've still not seen a reason that owners should not have to take action though. Is 9.9 minutes of their day really too much? No-one is asking them to spend hours per object. Hell, use a cynoalt with a T1 link.

I don't think asking guys to spend less than 10 minutes is wholly unreasonable to secure a SOV structure.


Unless theres someone on that same grid practically uncatchable trying to grief your corp/alliance by hacking that structure him/herself. then the inevitable two step can become an eternal dance regardless of the 4 hour vulnerability window.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2419 - 2015-03-05 14:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

A hard reset means you just suicide a group of ewar frigs against them every 40 minutes and restart the whole process. Definitely not.


*shrugs*

I fail to see why anyone would think that the burden of effort is intended to be completely removed from the attacker.

If this doesn't end up with a timer or reset, I'll be very surprised.

Current method at least offers some initiative to the attackers to actually start a meaningful fight as the defender has to come on grid and push them off or remain on grid with them whilst risking a 20m module on even their cheapest ship.

If you lower that to allow the defender to warp on grid in a disposable frig, jam them out and reset their 40minutes then it results in no-one being forced to fight (and at most just some dead T1 frigs to loot without even risking a 20m module)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#2420 - 2015-03-05 15:00:55 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Terence Bogard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

However, the difference is, someone took the effort, to combine that information, INTO ONE PLACE.


They. Know. This. Already.

Stop harping about your nonsense.


Clearly then, you have recently recieved large buffs to null income?

No?

Well, they either clearly do not, and require more data before implementing changes.

Or they have decided the balance is right.


I suspect that they require more data, we may be waiting a while then.


Umm, itll take more than just data to implement the null income changes. Especially when its needs to be balanced with hisec, and provide meaningful space content. There are a million factors to be considered and it may have to be coupled with an overall industry revamp. It will take time to do it right.



That, and the obscene income from goo. Just because grunts dont make trillions, sure as hell doesnt mean no-one down there is.

The SRPs ain't being funded by selling sisters probes Blink


But this is wildly off topic.


Moons arent that good anymore. Dyspro is about 5b per month, but the rest arent even close. Most are a few hundred a month, hardly worth alliance level operation. It's all in R64s and Cadmium nowadays.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.